Time Trial Learning Program?

longodj · 08-16-2008, 07:44 PM

Hey,
As I've mentioned in other threads, my goal is to get into time trials (like BMWDrmz

) with NASA. I started autocrossing last year and this year have done maybe...10? autocrosses with BMWCCA, Motorsports NE, and one SCCA. I've done 6 HPDE days with NASA this year and will be doing 6 more, 2 with BMWCCA. So far I've done The Glen and Pocono East, North, South, Single Infield, and Double Infield.

Next year, I intend on competing in SCCA Solo II and still doing all of the autocrosses with BMWCCA and Motorsports NE, so that'll probably be 15+ autocrosses. I also intend on doing as many HPDEs as possible with NASA/BMWCCA leading to maybe....12-15 days as well. Lastly, I intend to attend the Skip Barber Three Day Racing School at some point next year. Along those same lines, I may make some of those HPDE days rental days where I rent a Spec E30 or Spec Miata or something.

Now my question. I am currently in HPDE3 (Blue - Advanced Intermediate) group in NASA. My intention is to reach HPDE4 (Red - Advanced) group at the end of next season and start TT in 2010. My question is is this reasonable and is there anything else I can do to speed up my learning? I know from others that the shift from Blue to Red is the hardest and the longest I'm just wondering...how long and how hard

Is there any secret learning tool I'm not tapping into? I'm doing autocrosses and HPDEs currently and will be utilizing Skip Barber. I watch races and chase cams all the time and have been reading all of the speed secrets books and the like. I also take all of the track advice to the street and shift and drive the exact way I would on the track on the street just at a slower speed... Anything else I can do? Is there any benefit to doing the racing sims or anything like that? It'd be nice to get a like....step by step walk through of what it takes to get into TT or club racing from the wise ones here

Thanks,
Dave

longodj · 08-16-2008, 07:48 PM

Oh and also, for the Skip Barber bit...would it make more sense to do that at The Glen or some track that I know well or to take a flight out to CA and do it at Laguna Seca or some track that I really want to go to but haven't ran before? and the same question goes for the rentals...

S4to335 · 08-17-2008, 01:21 AM

To get prepared for time trials..you need to do more HPDE...doing autocrosses wont help that much. It is considerably different. It helps you with car control somewhat....if you screw up in autocross...youre done..if you screw up on a lap in a time trial..you get another one to try to improve. I did a bunch of autocross events in 2000 (18-19 autocross events)..and 2001 (13? events). In 97-99 I did like 6, 8, and 10 events, respectively. It helps to a point..then I think it doesnt help on the road course that much. Just my 2 cents worth.

longodj · 08-17-2008, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S4to335

To get prepared for time trials..you need to do more HPDE...doing autocrosses wont help that much. It is considerably different. It helps you with car control somewhat....if you screw up in autocross...youre done..if you screw up on a lap in a time trial..you get another one to try to improve. I did a bunch of autocross events in 2000 (18-19 autocross events)..and 2001 (13? events). In 97-99 I did like 6, 8, and 10 events, respectively. It helps to a point..then I think it doesnt help on the road course that much. Just my 2 cents worth.

Hey thanks a lot

I certainly agree with your observation, I'll mostly be doing the SCCA competition for funs sake and because it's cheaper than HPDEs

I guess I'll just save up some extra money to do even more HPDEs than I already plan...

satakal · 08-18-2008, 09:41 AM

regarding "the real driving simulator", I have spoken with dudes that say they're best for learning how to line up a pass. Driving skills, maybe not.
________
house wives Webcams

leftcoastman · 08-18-2008, 11:08 AM

Here's a tip for your own benefit (rather than trying to satisfy the powers that be...to pass into HPDE4/TT):

Learn how to manage traffic. Many of the TT groups allow passing without pointby, ANYWHERE. So you could conceivably be braking hard, see a guy next to you and have to give up the apex because he's door to door with you at turn-in.

I know a lot of HPDE3 guys I've given rides to do NOT ever want to be in HPDE4/TT after seeing the insane passes.

Also, when a HPDE3 guy wants to pass into HPDE4, I'll grab a group of instructors and literally circle him around the track. Basically one car on all sides and we orbit him while he's doing laps. You need to be mentally prepared for that.

S4to335 · 08-18-2008, 12:03 PM

BMW club had a racing school at Thunderhill..and they went 3 abreast thru the whole track..that is necessary for learning where you might be in a Time Trail group.

satakal · 08-18-2008, 12:15 PM

pft! You guys are making it sound like a big deal. I did that stuff the other weekend in my beginner group at BigWillow.
________
WEB SHOWS

longodj · 08-18-2008, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leftcoastman

Here's a tip for your own benefit (rather than trying to satisfy the powers that be...to pass into HPDE4/TT):

Learn how to manage traffic. Many of the TT groups allow passing without pointby, ANYWHERE. So you could conceivably be braking hard, see a guy next to you and have to give up the apex because he's door to door with you at turn-in.

I know a lot of HPDE3 guys I've given rides to do NOT ever want to be in HPDE4/TT after seeing the insane passes.

Also, when a HPDE3 guy wants to pass into HPDE4, I'll grab a group of instructors and literally circle him around the track. Basically one car on all sides and we orbit him while he's doing laps. You need to be mentally prepared for that.

Wow, I guess that is one of my problems currently. Or at least, the instructor that approved my move up to HPDE3 said that I change my line when I'm on someone's ass to pass. I don't know if it's because last time I was worried about my brakes and my normal instructor told me to back off a bit or what but yes, that's something I was going to start working on next weekend.

So I guess...I should work on...being able to change my line in any condition? How would I practice that besides just...aiming for a different point after full braking? Besides managing my line in traffic, I'm OK with managing traffic. I was completely comfortable with having someone behind or next to me and handled point bys easily and quickly. I guess I wouldn't know how the center of a vulture circle would feel but at least currently I was doing alright. I guess I do get flustered when I'm trapped in a large train of cars... alright, well, something to work on

Thanks guys, keep it coming!

leftcoastman · 08-18-2008, 12:54 PM

My take is that, unfortunately, practice is what makes perfect. You could inform your Group3 compatriots that you'll be practicing alternate lines, but I'm not sure how well that would be received by your group leader.

What I ALWAYS look for, when someone is up for any sort of up-rating, is traffic awareness. You just have to always be aware of what is ahead/behind/beside you. If I have to say "guy on your ass for three corners, let him by" because I haven't seen you checking your mirrors, that's a bad thing.

Know where everyone is....within a 5 second window front/back of you. That again, is for your own benefit too.

nicknaz · 08-18-2008, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longodj

How would I practice that besides just...aiming for a different point after full braking?

In Norcal HPDE 3 becomes open passing on the 2nd day of a 2 day weekend. I really don't see any other way to practice being in traffic than to get seat time in those situations

slalomfever · 09-03-2008, 03:03 PM

HPDE this weekend at Pocono North racetrack. www.pdadrivingschool.com
also Eastern Motor Racing Association has time trials.

longodj · 09-03-2008, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slalomfever

HPDE this weekend at Pocono North racetrack. www.pdadrivingschool.com
also Eastern Motor Racing Association has time trials.

I can't make it this weekend

Beside the fact that my car is blowing up (4x4! message?!!!) I am autocrossing at the go kart track near me this weekend

I'll be at Thunder at The Glen.

nicknaz · 09-03-2008, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longodj

I can't make it this weekend

Beside the fact that my car is blowing up (4x4! message?!!!) I am autocrossing at the go kart track near me this weekend

I'll be at Thunder at The Glen.

autoX while car "blowing up" = teh bad don't do it.....

longodj · 09-03-2008, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Nazareno

autoX while car "blowing up" = teh bad don't do it.....

lol I'm going to my dealer tomorrow, if they fix it I'll go, if not I'll use my buddy's E30 325i

nicknaz · 09-03-2008, 05:57 PM

I've participated using random rental cars in the past..

BMWdrmz · 09-03-2008, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slalomfever

HPDE this weekend at Pocono North racetrack. www.pdadrivingschool.com
also Eastern Motor Racing Association has time trials.

I'll be there

DrDomer · 09-03-2008, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Nazareno

I've participated using random rental cars in the past..

"And you better give me the insurance. Cuz I'm gonna beat the hell out of this rental car."

longodj · 09-03-2008, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMWdrmz

I'll be there

Did you get the second seat in?

nicknaz · 09-03-2008, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrDomer

"And you better give me the insurance. Cuz I'm gonna beat the hell out of this rental car."

I think it is pretty much understood that's what happens to rental cars. I don't do neutral drops, or burnouts or anything like that. I just apply throttle and use whatever little traction is available.... I think there's a difference between good, honest driving and abuse.

DrDomer · 09-03-2008, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Nazareno

I think it is pretty much understood that's what happens to rental cars. I don't do neutral drops, or burnouts or anything like that. I just apply throttle and use whatever little traction is available.... I think there's a difference between good, honest driving and abuse.

I suppose. I wasn't giving you shit. Just a paraphrase of Seinfeld.

Honestly, I've never seen a rental car at a HPDE. Didn't know it was common practice.

I might go see what Hertz has on the lot. Hmmmm....

nicknaz · 09-04-2008, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrDomer

I suppose. I wasn't giving you shit. Just a paraphrase of Seinfeld.

Honestly, I've never seen a rental car at a HPDE. Didn't know it was common practice.

I might go see what Hertz has on the lot. Hmmmm....

Hertz has 'shelby' mustang gt-h and corvette zhr (basically auto trans examples of mustang GT and base C6 vette) and they advise as 'rent-a-racer' so I think they are expecting some spirited driving. That said, I saw a mustang GTH at a DE at thunderhill that puked out all of its oil in a massive smoke cloud entering T1. Not sure what happened afterwards. probably just pushed it to the highway and called hertz roadside assistance

A couple of events ago I saw someone with a Chevy Aveo in TT.. apparently his 335i kept overheating oil so he didn't want to track it

Yea.. it is pretty common

08-16-2008, 07:44 PM	#1
longodj Major 78 Rep 1,287 Posts Drives: 135i Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Rochester, NY iTrader: (3) Garage List 2007 335xi [0.00] 1974 VW Beetle [0.00]	Time Trial Learning Program? Hey, As I've mentioned in other threads, my goal is to get into time trials (like BMWDrmz ) with NASA. I started autocrossing last year and this year have done maybe...10? autocrosses with BMWCCA, Motorsports NE, and one SCCA. I've done 6 HPDE days with NASA this year and will be doing 6 more, 2 with BMWCCA. So far I've done The Glen and Pocono East, North, South, Single Infield, and Double Infield. Next year, I intend on competing in SCCA Solo II and still doing all of the autocrosses with BMWCCA and Motorsports NE, so that'll probably be 15+ autocrosses. I also intend on doing as many HPDEs as possible with NASA/BMWCCA leading to maybe....12-15 days as well. Lastly, I intend to attend the Skip Barber Three Day Racing School at some point next year. Along those same lines, I may make some of those HPDE days rental days where I rent a Spec E30 or Spec Miata or something. Now my question. I am currently in HPDE3 (Blue - Advanced Intermediate) group in NASA. My intention is to reach HPDE4 (Red - Advanced) group at the end of next season and start TT in 2010. My question is is this reasonable and is there anything else I can do to speed up my learning? I know from others that the shift from Blue to Red is the hardest and the longest I'm just wondering...how long and how hard Is there any secret learning tool I'm not tapping into? I'm doing autocrosses and HPDEs currently and will be utilizing Skip Barber. I watch races and chase cams all the time and have been reading all of the speed secrets books and the like. I also take all of the track advice to the street and shift and drive the exact way I would on the track on the street just at a slower speed... Anything else I can do? Is there any benefit to doing the racing sims or anything like that? It'd be nice to get a like....step by step walk through of what it takes to get into TT or club racing from the wise ones here Thanks, Dave __________________ Performance: UUC Sways CDV Mod KW V3 Vorshlag plates Pagid Yellow VK OC Hotchkis Brace STETT IC/CAI Braille B2015 VK Catless DP BMS JB3 M-Tech #1 Mod: AutoX/HPDE HPDE 3 Many Thanks: **********s UUC Motorwerks VK Motorwerks HP Autowerks SOLD
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08-16-2008, 07:48 PM	#2
longodj Major 78 Rep 1,287 Posts Drives: 135i Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Rochester, NY iTrader: (3) Garage List 2007 335xi [0.00] 1974 VW Beetle [0.00]	Oh and also, for the Skip Barber bit...would it make more sense to do that at The Glen or some track that I know well or to take a flight out to CA and do it at Laguna Seca or some track that I really want to go to but haven't ran before? and the same question goes for the rentals... __________________ Performance: UUC Sways CDV Mod KW V3 Vorshlag plates Pagid Yellow VK OC Hotchkis Brace STETT IC/CAI Braille B2015 VK Catless DP BMS JB3 M-Tech #1 Mod: AutoX/HPDE HPDE 3 Many Thanks: **********s UUC Motorwerks VK Motorwerks HP Autowerks SOLD
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08-17-2008, 01:21 AM	#3
S4to335 Brigadier General 475 Rep 4,380 Posts Drives: 2014 Audi A4 / 91 Track Miata Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: San Jose, CA iTrader: (5) Garage List 2007 BMW 335i sedan [8.00]	To get prepared for time trials..you need to do more HPDE...doing autocrosses wont help that much. It is considerably different. It helps you with car control somewhat....if you screw up in autocross...youre done..if you screw up on a lap in a time trial..you get another one to try to improve. I did a bunch of autocross events in 2000 (18-19 autocross events)..and 2001 (13? events). In 97-99 I did like 6, 8, and 10 events, respectively. It helps to a point..then I think it doesnt help on the road course that much. Just my 2 cents worth. __________________ Car is now gone .... :-(
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08-18-2008, 09:41 AM	#5
satakal Major 108 Rep 1,476 Posts Drives: e46 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: socal iTrader: (2)	regarding "the real driving simulator", I have spoken with dudes that say they're best for learning how to line up a pass. Driving skills, maybe not. ________ house wives Webcams Last edited by satakal; 08-16-2011 at 06:57 PM..
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08-18-2008, 11:08 AM	#6
leftcoastman Lieutenant Colonel 55 Rep 1,714 Posts Drives: 335i Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Near some canyons iTrader: (1)	Here's a tip for your own benefit (rather than trying to satisfy the powers that be...to pass into HPDE4/TT): Learn how to manage traffic. Many of the TT groups allow passing without pointby, ANYWHERE. So you could conceivably be braking hard, see a guy next to you and have to give up the apex because he's door to door with you at turn-in. I know a lot of HPDE3 guys I've given rides to do NOT ever want to be in HPDE4/TT after seeing the insane passes. Also, when a HPDE3 guy wants to pass into HPDE4, I'll grab a group of instructors and literally circle him around the track. Basically one car on all sides and we orbit him while he's doing laps. You need to be mentally prepared for that.
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08-18-2008, 12:03 PM	#7
S4to335 Brigadier General 475 Rep 4,380 Posts Drives: 2014 Audi A4 / 91 Track Miata Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: San Jose, CA iTrader: (5) Garage List 2007 BMW 335i sedan [8.00]	BMW club had a racing school at Thunderhill..and they went 3 abreast thru the whole track..that is necessary for learning where you might be in a Time Trail group. __________________ Car is now gone .... :-(
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08-18-2008, 12:15 PM	#8
satakal Major 108 Rep 1,476 Posts Drives: e46 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: socal iTrader: (2)	pft! You guys are making it sound like a big deal. I did that stuff the other weekend in my beginner group at BigWillow. ________ WEB SHOWS Last edited by satakal; 08-16-2011 at 06:57 PM..
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08-18-2008, 12:54 PM	#10
leftcoastman Lieutenant Colonel 55 Rep 1,714 Posts Drives: 335i Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Near some canyons iTrader: (1)	My take is that, unfortunately, practice is what makes perfect. You could inform your Group3 compatriots that you'll be practicing alternate lines, but I'm not sure how well that would be received by your group leader. What I ALWAYS look for, when someone is up for any sort of up-rating, is traffic awareness. You just have to always be aware of what is ahead/behind/beside you. If I have to say "guy on your ass for three corners, let him by" because I haven't seen you checking your mirrors, that's a bad thing. Know where everyone is....within a 5 second window front/back of you. That again, is for your own benefit too.
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09-03-2008, 03:03 PM	#12
slalomfever 1123 Rep 2,157 Posts Drives: BMW Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Long Island, NY iTrader: (5)	HPDE this weekend at Pocono North racetrack. www.pdadrivingschool.com also Eastern Motor Racing Association has time trials.
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09-03-2008, 05:57 PM	#16
nicknaz Lieutenant General 3195 Rep 10,509 Posts Drives: C6Z Join Date: May 2008 Location: NorCal iTrader: (0)	I've participated using random rental cars in the past..
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