[jblood]

I have a 2009 335i xdrive manual sedan. When temps fall below 50 degrees and car sits for a while (overnight), I experience the following lights on the dash:

-Electrical System Malfunction
-4X4
-PARK Brake
-ABS
-DTS

The following functions either don't work or work erratically.
-long crank time to start
-door locks
-trunk release
-windshield wipers
-relay clicking coming from passenger side behind glove box

Once the car warms up (10-15 minutes), I can turn it off, remove the key, and restart. Once I do that, the dash lights disappear and all works as usual.

It is very repeatable and only happens when temps go below 50 degrees at night.

Any ideas which modules/ connections are the likely culprit?

[relative4]

Checked the battery?

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by jblood

...2009 335i xdrive manual sedan. When temps fall below 50 degrees and car sits for a while (overnight), I experience the following lights on the dash:
-Electrical System Malfunction
-4X4
-PARK Brake
-ABS
-DTS
The following functions either don't work or work erratically.
-long crank time to start
-door locks
-trunk release
-windshield wipers
-relay clicking coming from passenger side behind glove box
Once the car warms up (10-15 minutes), I can turn it off, remove the key, and restart. Once I do that, the dash lights disappear and all works as usual.
It is very repeatable and only happens when temps go below 50 degrees at night.

TESTS/QUESTIONS:
0) In EACH step, listen for (a) Fuel Pump prime sound & (b) Relay clicking:
1) On cold morning, insert remote key in Insert Compartment ONLY: what works normally (Radio, etc.)? Listen for Fuel pump priming when unlock or enter vehicle as well -- any sound?
2) When you turn ignition ON, WITHOUT pressing Brake to activate Starter, what happens that is ABNORMAL? What functions such as locks, windows, Blower, do NOT work?
3) Do you hear fuel pump prime when you turn on ignition for a few seconds BEFORE pressing Brake & cranking Starter? Does this reduce Starter cranking time?
4) When you crank Starter, do you NOW hear Fuel Pump prime for 1st time?
5) Please list EACH time you hear Relay clicking, WHERE clicking coming from, and whether single click or multiple or "ratchet-like" clicking, or frequency of clicks (x per second or one every y seconds).

SWAG #1: Most likely single cause of ALL the issues you describe, which is "Temperature-related", is the "Terminal 30g Relay" which is the large, Black, relay (IO1068) located at the Upper-right of the Fuse Panel on the JB (Junction Box) as shown in this TIS "Installation Location":
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...30g/1VnYuo3ZrW

Electrically, that relay is switched by the CAS Module (A149a) and powers ALL the circuits attached to the Black bar representing Terminal 30g (Kl.30g) in this TIS Junction Box diagram (scroll down to bottom-center of complicated diagram):
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...ule/1VnXpW4emV

Here is the TIS circuit diagram for your CAS Module (A149a), which activates the Kl.30g Relay (IO1068) as shown in the Lower-left of the schematic:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...system/uXuCNh9

That relay is available from many parts suppliers, ~ $20. Perhaps quickest way to confirm that is culprit is to extract it from JB, keep it warm in house overnight, plug it in while relay warm, and see if all your problems are behind you. If issues occur even IF you do that, then some other Temp-related issue related to activation of that circuit is NEXT subject to test.

Please let us know what you find,
George

[jblood]

Yes - battery is good.

[jblood]

George,

Thank you much for the reply and swag!! I will do as you have suggested. Sure would be nice if the relay was the culprit. The one "nice" thing about this problem is that it is 100% repeatable.

I will need to listen for fuel pump etc... to provide the level of detail you are asking for but I can tell you with certainty that the relay clicking is constant at a frequency of approx. 1/sec just when I get into the car.

The electrical malfunction symbol is lit with the key plugged in and engine not started.

Doors locks work erratically, in fact, I need to leave the locks open because they often will not open at all with the fob. The lights come on but the locks do not get triggered.

[jblood]

George,

The following is a more detailed description:

OPEN CAR DOOR, GET IN, CLOSE DOOR
- Relay Clicking (about 2X/second)
- I DO hear fuel pump

PUT KEY IN IGNITION
- Car on stand symbol appears between speedo and tach
- Relay continues to click

PUSH START BUTTON (IGNITION ON (CAR NOT STARTED))
- Relay continues to click
- The following items do NOT work:
- Door locks
- Trunk Latch
- Wipers
- Gas gauge (shows dashes)
- Passenger side seat heater
- Tachometer not working correctly

START CAR
- long crank time
- relay continues to click
- same non-functioning items
- turn heat on and allow to "warm up"
- The following diagnostic messages appear:
- Right Brake Lamp Malfunction!
- Pass. restraint system
- Electrical System
- AWD, DSC, ABS, and EMERG EBV!

ONCE CAR HAS WARMED UP (TURN OFF, PULL KEY OUT, PUT BACK IN and RESTART)
- normal, short crank time
- ALL functions work (i.e. door locks, passenger seat heater, trunk latch...)
- Relay does NOT click
- No diagnostic Messages (except sometimes the park brake light remains on until even warmer)

I am going to look at the diagrams you provided again and see if I can trace by function what might be happening.

Thanks!
-Jim

[lowrydr310]

Originally Posted by jblood

Yes - battery is good.

Originally Posted by jblood

ONCE CAR HAS WARMED UP (TURN OFF, PULL KEY OUT, PUT BACK IN and RESTART)
- normal, short crank time
- ALL functions work (i.e. door locks, passenger seat heater, trunk latch...)
- Relay does NOT click
- No diagnostic Messages (except sometimes the park brake light remains on until even warmer)

How did you test the battery? Have you removed it from the car and had it load tested? Autozone does this for free, as I'm sure most auto parts stores will do.

I'm only asking because all the symptoms you describe sound exactly like what happens when the battery is weak. If you just measured voltage that isn't sufficient to claim the battery is good. Once your car is 'warmed up' and has been running, the battery has just been charged therefore all is good, but it might not be holding that charge long enough (overnight).

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

...Perhaps quickest way to confirm that [Kl.30G Relay] is culprit is to extract it from JB, keep it warm in house overnight, plug it in while relay warm, and see if all your problems are behind you. If issues occur even IF you do that, then some other Temp-related issue related to activation of that circuit is NEXT subject to test.

Originally Posted by jblood

...I am going to look at the diagrams you provided again and see if I can trace by function what might be happening.

Hi Jim,

Rather than pour over the circuit diagrams, I would suggest (again ;-) simply "sleeping with" the relay -- take in inside and keep it @ ~70F overnight.

If car behaves normally next morning, then simply replace the relay. If you still have the relay "chatter", then inspect the CAS activation of the IO1068 relay, and specifically the relay socket and X11010 connector at upper-left of JB where activation wire from CAS connects to JB, per this TIS schematic & Installation Location for X11010:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...inals/AFnfXKzP
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...xi-lim/RKy9OeU

George

[jblood]

Will do George - planning to dig in this weekend. Will post update.

[jblood]

I measured voltage when sitting overnight and once warm but not "load" tested. Thanks for the advice - I will have it load tested.

[JeffKim]

Another data point. I have a 2009 328i xDrive with 180K miles. It has the exact same problem starting last year at temperatures less than 25 deg F. I replaced the battery (and registered it) but the problem continued then went away with warmer weather. It has return now that the weather is cold again. After extensive Googling, I couldn't find any other descriptions of this problem so I will be following this thread with bated breath.

[JeffKim]

... I will "sleep" with the relay tonight and report back tomorrow.

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by jblood

I measured voltage when sitting overnight and once warm but not "load" tested. Thanks for the advice - I will have it load tested.

You "Load Test" your battery every morning, or other time, when the Starter cranks the engine. In fact, the IBS measures "Before & After" battery voltage on every Startup, and the resulting test data is saved in "Power Module" data in the DME, and can be read by INPA. See Page 10 in the attached "E90 Voltage Supply" BMW Training Manual for discussion of battery SoH and that feature of the IBS. If the Starter cranks the engine, your battery passed the Load Test, and as I understand your posts in this thread, you have NEVER had an issue with the Starter NOT cranking the engine, although you DO have issues (when cold) of LONG Cranking before engine firing/ running.

If you have a battery charger & DMM (Digital Multimeter), you can conduct your own "Load Test" at home. Charge Battery (don't disconnect anything, just connect battery charger to "Jumpstart Terminals under the hood). Charge at 6 Amps or 10 Amps for ~ 1 hour. Disconnect Charger and wait about 10 minutes before measuring battery voltage at the Jumpstart Terminals. Voltage should be between 12.3V to 12.8V depending upon condition of battery.

NOW, crank Starter. IF Starter Solenoid clicks or Starter tries to turn engine but can't, measure battery voltage at Jumpstart Terminals again. If voltage is now in 10V range, your battery has an internal fault or "bad cell" and cannot be "fixed" by simply recharging, as same thing will happen NEXT time you apply Starter Load. You can charge it to ~ 12.5V and it will light lightbulbs or provide low current/ Amps in small-load situations, but fails when Starter Load is applied.

This is NOT just theory. I have personally seen that type of battery failure MANY times. I just replaced a 5-year-old Interstate battery that showed 12.5V just BEFORE I pressed start, and ~ 10V immediately after just clicking the Starter Solenoid. Of course, the BMW Instrument Cluster goes crazy with most every icon being lit: 4X4, DSC, ABS, SAS, etc.

George

[Pladi]

check that ground strap too. It has caused all kinds of issues.

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by Pladi

check that ground strap too. It has caused all kinds of issues.

While true, I have NEVER heard of a ground strap ONLY causing issues below 50F, not even playing "Canadian Rules."

George

[lowrydr310]

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

If the Starter cranks the engine, your battery passed the Load Test, and as I understand your posts in this thread, you have NEVER had an issue with the Starter NOT cranking the engine, although you DO have issues (when cold) of LONG Cranking before engine firing/ running.

That's a great point George. When I read jblood's initial post, I was focused on the illuminated dash lights and missed the comment about "long crank times."

A friend of mine just had his battery fail in his 2011 328i and had the exact symptoms with all the dash lights. My battery is 7 years old and I'm aware that there may not be much life left in it, so I'm on the lookout for symptoms.

jblood, when it's cranking over, is the starter motor struggling? Or is it a strong healthy attempt to start but just cranking a long time before it actually starts?

[Pladi]

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

While true, I have NEVER heard of a ground strap ONLY causing issues below 50F, not even playing "Canadian Rules."

George

You are a methodical guy surprised your approach here is on what you have heard. Its easy to check. Bad grounding can cause all types of issues and the weather could be related or coincidence.

[JeffKim]

SWAG #1: Most likely single cause of ALL the issues you describe, which is "Temperature-related", is the "Terminal 30g Relay" which is the large, Black, relay (IO1068) located at the Upper-right of the Fuse Panel on the JB (Junction Box) as shown in this TIS "Installation Location":
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...30g/1VnYuo3ZrW

I kept it warm overnight and plugged the IO1068 relay back in this morning but still have the same problem as jblood. I now notice a regular clicking noise coming from the area of the fuse box when the car is cold and off which goes away once the car is driven and warmed up. I don't recall hearing this before.

I don't suspect any battery issues since the battery is almost new and there are no issues with the car starting.

I don't want to risk hijacking the thread so I'll continue to monitor and if any of the suggestions work in my case, I'll report back.

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by JeffKim

I kept it warm overnight and plugged the IO1068 relay back in this morning but still have the same problem as jblood. I now notice a regular clicking noise coming from the area of the fuse box when the car is cold and off which goes away once the car is driven and warmed up. I don't recall hearing this before. I don't suspect any battery issues since the battery is almost new and there are no issues with the car starting.

I don't want to risk hijacking the thread so I'll continue to monitor and if any of the suggestions work in my case, I'll report back.

You are NOT hijacking the thread at all. You & Jim appear to have virtually identical symptoms. He has described the "Relay clicking" in detail in Post #6, and that it goes away upon restart once engine/car warmed up. You BOTH have 2009 xDrive vehicles, his N54, your's N52. He's in MI & you're in MN. With BOTH of you trying to figure out similar issues, ANY input from either is helpful.

I would suggest checking when you hear the clicking to see if it is coming from the IO1068 Relay (Terminal 30g Relay) which you removed for temp test. The clicking sound is most likely coming from relay contacts, but if keeping the relay warm did NOT prevent the symptoms & clicking, then something other than the relay itself, such as the relay coil activation signal from the CAS, may be the culprit, and just because the relay is clicking doesn't mean the relay itself is bad.

We need to know WHERE the clicking is coming from. Is it (1) the IO1068, (2) the CAS Module (Under Instrument Cluster), or (3) Something else. If we can identify the source of the clicking, which BOTH you & Jim state ONLY occurs when warning lights are lit & malfunctions are occurring in electrical system, then we can go through the circuit diagrams, and hopefully devise tests with a multimeter if you don't have INPA or such.

Based upon reports from you & Jim so far, I would want to (1) confirm that the source of the clicking is IO1068, and if so (2) determine if either (a) 12V+ signal to relay coil from CAS is fluctuating, or (b) if ground to relay coil is fluctuating. SOMETHING has to be giving intermittent circuit to relay coil if relay is OK and yet its contacts are chattering (electromagnet coil is NOT "holding-in" the contacts). Since metal shrinks in cold temps, there could be an issue in solder joints on a circuit board, contacts in a connector, etc., and electrical testing using the power supply circuit to IO1068 (ASSuming that is what is clicking ;-) is required to locate the cause of the issue.

Here are the pertinent TIS circuit diagrams for your 2009 328xi: Terminal Control (IO1068 Relay), CAS (Activation of IO1068), & Junction Box showing all Fuses powered via Terminal 30g:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...inals/AFnfXKzP
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...system/uXuCNh9
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...ule/1VnXpW4emV

George

[JeffKim]

Based upon reports from you & Jim so far, I would want to (1) confirm that the source of the clicking is IO1068, and if so (2) determine if either (a) 12V+ signal to relay coil from CAS is fluctuating, or (b) if ground to relay coil is fluctuating. SOMETHING has to be giving intermittent circuit to relay coil if relay is OK and yet its contacts are chattering (electromagnet coil is NOT "holding-in" the contacts). Since metal shrinks in cold temps, there could be an issue in solder joints on a circuit board, contacts in a connector, etc., and electrical testing using the power supply circuit to IO1068 (ASSuming that is what is clicking ;-) is required to locate the cause of the issue.

Thanks! I reread Jim #6 and yes mine has the identical clicking symptoms. I should have mentioned that the clicking continued after I removed the IO1068, so it isn't the source. It also seems to be originating close to the fuse box rather than the instrument cluster. I was on my way to work and didn't have time to investigate. I'll see if I can isolate where it's coming from this evening.

My wife will be relieved that I won't have to throw her out of bed to sleep with the relay again, she was jealous (yuk, yuk).

[jblood]

Glad to have some company here Jeff! Although sorry you are dealing with the same issue. I have a bit more info to add and responses to questions.

1) I was able to get behind the glove box and determined that the clicking is NOT coming from IO1068. As best as I can tell, the clicking is coming from inside the JBE. I did not sleep with the IO1068 yet but I removed it from the fuse box as the clicking was occurring and the clicking continued. I'm thinking as next step that I may need to sleep with the JBE? This requires a bit of disassembly that I did not have time for last night. I hope the relay doesn't get jealous

2) George, you are correct in that I have had no other indications that battery is bad. When the cranking time is longer to start, there is no struggle with the starter - just a second or 2 longer before she fires. Having said that, I did remove the battery and put it on a charger overnight. I plan to put back in tonight and will measure the voltage before and after start.

[relative4]

Tried unplugging the IBS?