[kenneth]

Hi guys,

Need some advice from those who Heel/Toe! I have only 3 HPDE track days under the belt, and will be doing a 2 day event at the end of the month. At my last event, my instructor mentioned that it's time I learned to Heel/Toe as I was carrying lots of speed. He also mentioned that I was a naturally smooth and fast driver and that I just need seat time to improve.

I have been trying to practice Heel/Toe on the street, but find that without the speed (revs) it's awkward to do that. Any tips would surely help. I am thinking I could use a couple of sessions at the next HPDE event to practice this, without going full out. Is this a good idea?


Thanks

Ken

[BMWdrmz]

Originally Posted by kenneth

Hi guys,

Need some advice from those who Heel/Toe! I have only 3 HPDE track days under the belt, and will be doing a 2 day event at the end of the month. At my last event, my instructor mentioned that it's time I learned to Heel/Toe as I was carrying lots of speed. He also mentioned that I was a naturally smooth and fast driver and that I just need seat time to improve.

I have been trying to practice Heel/Toe on the street, but find that without the speed (revs) it's awkward to do that. Any tips would surely help. I am thinking I could use a couple of sessions at the next HPDE event to practice this, without going full out. Is this a good idea?


Thanks

Ken

Heel toe is not something to practice on track at speed (my opinion). The reason is that you are so concentrated on doing the heel/ toe you aren't paying attention to your driving or whats around you. I recommend finding a large empty parking lot and practice there. You may also want to practice the technique with car stationary. That way you get the motion down and can play with how far you push the accelerator to get a given rev. Heel toe is an advanced technique for driving, its no harm in learning it early but there are other things you can focus on at this stage of HPDE like car control, weight transfer, brake points, etc. Another way of matching revs is double clutching. Good luck and be safe out there

[leftcoastman]

You don't need speed to heel/toe.

Next time you're going 40mph and come to a red light, start braking and heel/toe downshift into 1st gear before you get to a stop. Then obviously, press down the clutch once you stop.

Do the same at intersections. As you're slowing down, downshift a little early, so you HAVE to match revs to prevent the car from bucking. Just make sure no one is behind you in case you flub it.

[kenneth]

Thanks for your replies folks. Appreciate it. My reference to speed was to be able to do H/T under hard, as opposed to light braking. But I'll give it a try using the lower gears!

[leftcoastman]

Three tips:

1) Shoes with a wide toe box really help.
2) Put more of your foot on the brake. If you're going to miss one of the pedals, you don't want to slip off the brake.
3) For me, it's not heel-toe. It's left3toes / right2toes.

[oddjob2021]

Originally Posted by leftcoastman

Three tips:

1) Shoes with a wide toe box really help.
2) Put more of your foot on the brake. If you're going to miss one of the pedals, you don't want to slip off the brake.
3) For me, it's not heel-toe. It's left3toes / right2toes.

agreed. its much easier than rotating your foot. I personally go 2 left 3 right on our bmw's, however, because the gas is not as close as the skip barber mazdaspeed race cars I learned on. If you want to practice on the street I suggest a parking lot, like others have said. You should practice in a straight line first, coming in hot then braking heavily, while "YUNGA"ing (as coaches called it) and dropping down a gear or two. Once you have mastred the footwork try to do it as you turn. It's much more arduous but once you have it down its a really helpful tool in racing.

[nicknaz]

I'm not sure what other posters are talking about with doing heel-toe 'as you turn'.. IMHO the whole point of H/T is to complete the downshifting during straight line braking. I personally don't like changing gears mid corner. It is just asking for trouble if you pooch the shift

OP, personally, do big toe/first toe/ball of foot on the brake and use last 3 toes/side of foot to hit the gas. when I learned here is the progression I followed.

1) in a straight line (ie coming to a stop sign) press the clutch, hit the brake and blip the throttle. don't try to downshift, just get the feel for how much you have to move your foot to blip. I find that you have to do harder than normal (for the street) braking in order to get the brake pedal low enough to make this work

2) once you got the blipping motion, try to do some downshifting in a straight line. usually i drive like 50mph in 4th gear and heel toe into 3rd gear. this way if I miss I'm not going to miss big with a high rpm downshift

3) once I got better at the low rpm downshifting, I tried to do higher rpm downshifts.. so again driving 50mph but this time in 3rd gear and then downshifting to 2nd gear

Also I do a downshift that requires a movement towards me (ie 5 to 4, 3 to 2) I 'backhand' the gear lever (my palm is on the top of the shift knob). I find that if i put my palm on the side of the shifter it is WAY too easy to pull the lever too far towards me (ie potential 'money' shift)

And lastly, try your best not to lose any pedal pressure on the brakes when you move to blip the throttle.

good luck!

[AJerman]

Yeah, it's really easy in our cars. As leftcoastman said, it's not even heel-toe in our cars, it's leftsideoffoot-rightsideoffoot.

Practice it on the street, but give yourself space, the first few times you'll probably run long on your slowing. You're don't even need to practice for the reason it's useful (downshifting as you approach a turn). Just do it as you come to a red light, you can even do it a 2 or 3 times each time you stop if you run down the gears. Just give yourself plenty of room and be ready to abort, because you'll probably run a little bit slowing down the first few times.

As you come up to a light, take your foot off the gas, put it on the brake to slow down, when you get the RPMs to the right range (doesn't need to be much as you're learning and on the street, on a track you'd want to keep high RPMs), hit the clutch and immediately push the gas with the right side of your foot to blip the throttle to the desired range, shift of course while you're doing that, and then let out the clutch.

It's really simple, but you'll probably be really jerky doing it at first. I found the hardest thing was to trust that my blip put me in the right RPM range while I was trying to do so much else at the same time, which would subconsciously make me let the clutch out slower, and then it WOULD be at the wrong range. So one thing to know before is how to do a fast downshift. If you can't do a fast downshift without involving the brake, then you're just going to be in even more of a mess when you try to add more to it.

[satakal]

Originally Posted by kenneth

Thanks for your replies folks. Appreciate it. My reference to speed was to be able to do H/T under hard, as opposed to light braking. But I'll give it a try using the lower gears!

If you can do it at lower speeds and rpms, it'll be super easy at higher speeds. (the smoothness penalty is inversely proprtional to revs)
________
Sunset Boulevard Residence Pattaya

[kenneth]

Thank you! so much knowledge and good advice here. I'll practice over the next weeks and report back.

[Icedog_16]

Originally Posted by leftcoastman

Three tips:

1) Shoes with a wide toe box really help.
2) Put more of your foot on the brake. If you're going to miss one of the pedals, you don't want to slip off the brake.
3) For me, it's not heel-toe. It's left3toes / right2toes.

+1 I do this as well.

[smellthebeans]

I have practiced in neutral going down the hill towards my house. its an automatic so I am missing out on engaging the clutch...its better than nothing

modulating the brake and bliping the throttle. The Neighbors must think I am nuts. At least I can practice until I get another car with 3 pedals.

I have big feet (size 11 or 12) so its more like arch of foot on brake and 3 left toes/ball of foot on throttle.

[satakal]

Originally Posted by smellthebeans

I have practiced in neutral going down the hill towards my house. its an automatic so I am missing out on engaging the clutch...its better than nothing

modulating the brake and bliping the throttle. The Neighbors must think I am nuts. At least I can practice until I get another car with 3 pedals.

I have big feet (size 11 or 12) so its more like arch of foot on brake and 3 left toes/ball of foot on throttle.

rock on dude. I would probably do the same thing if I got stuck with an auto. Smart actually. Mom needs to watch out next time I borrow the mini van.
________
SexyDiana live

[nicknaz]

just press the 'down' button and put the ~$2000 transmission you purchased to work?

[smellthebeans]

Heel toe while in manual mode? Drive by wire....the engine does not rev. The intent is to get a feel for the throttle position.

I plan to meticulously follow BMWs recommended maintenance plan for this fancy pants ZF automatic. Then replace it with a manual. Service tech tells me it uses the same cable / fitting harness and the output on the crank is the same. The fire wall is pre drilled to accept mechanicals (pedal, master cylinder)

All I need is a wrecked donor.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by smellthebeans

Heel toe while in manual mode? Drive by wire....the engine does not rev. The intent is to get a feel for the throttle position.

I plan to meticulously follow BMWs recommended maintenance plan for this fancy pants ZF automatic. Then replace it with a manual. Service tech tells me it uses the same cable / fitting harness and the output on the crank is the same. The fire wall is pre drilled to accept mechanicals (pedal, master cylinder)

All I need is a wrecked donor.

if the car got wrecked usually means the driver was an a$$hat, which means the trans was probably used with a ham fist. You sure that's a good way to spend $$ ?

The loss you'll take from selling your current car and going to a manual 330 or other car is probably similar to the cost of the retrofit anyway....

[gloster]

+1 to everyone who said practice on the street, not the track. Here is a link to a nice write up on how to practice:

http://www.motoringfile.com/2005/07/...g_made_simple/

[smellthebeans]

Originally Posted by Nick Nazareno

if the car got wrecked usually means the driver was an a$$hat, which means the trans was probably used with a ham fist. You sure that's a good way to spend $$ ?

The loss you'll take from selling your current car and going to a manual 330 or other car is probably similar to the cost of the retrofit anyway....

Cars dont get rear ended or swiped by other drivers?

I would feel confident about a totaled E90 with the getrag 6 speed say with about 30-40K miles.

+1 on the retro fit...not to mention who knows how long the ZF will hold up following BMWs recomended maintenance plan

This is my first BMW so I plan to hang onto it for quite some time regardless of the transmmission.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by smellthebeans

Cars dont get rear ended or swiped by other drivers?

I would feel confident about a totaled E90 with the getrag 6 speed say with about 30-40K miles.

Hard to say man. I think it is more likely that the car was spun and ended up into a wall/guardrail back first.

I've seen friends go the retrofit route before, it is a lot of cost and complexity that only makes sense if the result is compelling. ie euro E36 M3 motor swap. DIY when you can buy the same thing from the factory just strikes me as a retarded way to spend time and money... that said, your car, your $ best of luck!!

[Nikolas]

Practice heel toe in your every day driving so it becomes second nature. Trying to learn it at the track is a little tough. For the guy that is trying to rev match in his auto, you do realize that the Steptronic rev matches on its own, correct?

[Nikos335i]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

Practice heel toe in your every day driving so it becomes second nature. Trying to learn it at the track is a little tough. For the guy that is trying to rev match in his auto, you do realize that the Steptronic rev matches on its own, correct?

+1

[smellthebeans]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

Practice heel toe in your every day driving so it becomes second nature. Trying to learn it at the track is a little tough. For the guy that is trying to rev match in his auto, you do realize that the Steptronic rev matches on its own, correct?

Yes...the ZF in the 335 does.

As I said...its hard to truly rev match with out a 3rd pedal

its more about getting a feel for braking force applied and throttle response.