[wtwo3]

Modern BMWs have the glaring issue of lack of steering feedback. Consumers wanted more daily driver friendly cars, and somehow that meant ALL modern BMWs would be subject to the lack of steering feel - even the M cars. Someone also needs to tell BMW that accuracy and weight does not = feedback. The steering can be ultra accurate and have a hefty weight to it, but it can all still feel very artificial (and it does).

So that got me thinking, what modern cars still retain steering feedback? Or am I stuck with an older car if I want to experience that today?

[5.M0NSTER]

I get good feedback from my '18 Camaro SS 1LE.

When I take it to the track I notice that right at the limit of front tire adhesion in the corner I get a little bit of extra vibration and a gentle tug, and past the limit the steering effort changes. It helps me understand what the front tires are doing in tight corners. Definitely more communicative than my M2 was.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

I get good feedback from my '18 Camaro SS 1LE.

When I take it to the track I notice that right at the limit of front tire adhesion in the corner I get a little bit of extra vibration and a gentle tug, and past the limit the steering effort changes. It helps me understand what the front tires are doing in tight corners. Definitely more communicative than my M2 was.

I have one and the steering is excellent and I've always heard accolades about it as well. Porsche and these GM products have always scored high with their electronic steering, as in, "it's not impossible to make it work well, so why can't BMW do it"? My 4-series had a big dead spot in the middle of the wheel that just felt like crap and yep, feed back was just non-existent. My experience with the limit is the same as yours.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by RM7

I have one and the steering is excellent and I've always heard accolades about it as well. Porsche and these GM products have always scored high with their electronic steering, as in, "it's not impossible to make it work well, so why can't BMW do it"? My 4-series had a big dead spot in the middle of the wheel that just felt like crap and yep, feed back was just non-existent. My experience with the limit is the same as yours.

I keep going back and forth between BMW either just being incompetent at properly tuning an EPS rack, or them intentionally doing it to appeal to a broader audience that prefers a "luxury" feel.

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I keep going back and forth between BMW either just being incompetent at properly tuning an EPS rack, or them intentionally doing it to appeal to a broader audience that prefers a "luxury" feel.

i think its the latter. i remember someone posting here a while back saying that they had 'connections' at BMW and they intentionally made the steering lighter with less feedback to appeal to more women and boost sales. apparently women preferred mercedes due to the lighter steering effort back then.


Cars i've had with great steering feedback:

FRS/86
E36 M3 > E46 M3
991.2 GT3

458 was accurate... but extremely boosted and very light. most ferrari's are like this which i'm not a fan of.
GTR and F80 steering feedback was pretty forgettable. both very accurate though.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by stein_325i

Some of the best modern steering feel in cars that I've tested:

-GM Alpha Chassis Vehicles (Camaro, SS, CTS-V, ATS-V, New Blackwings, etc.)
-Alfa Romeo Giulia Ti/Quadrifoglio
-Porsche 718 GT4
-Early GT350's (later down the cycle they got new tuning)

-3rd Gen Mazda3 (has better steering feel than most luxury brands)

BMW's faults are mainly the tuning of their steering but its not just the feel but also the calibration is overly synthetic which is ironic because they use ZF steering racks, the same which are used in the ATS-V...

Giulia Quadrifoglio and CT4 blackwing are definitely on my list. Wish I didn't need usable rear seats but unfortunately that's my reality until at least my kids are beyond the carseat stage.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

i think its the latter. i remember someone posting here a while back saying that they had 'connections' at BMW and they intentionally made the steering lighter with less feedback to appeal to more women and boost sales. apparently women preferred mercedes due to the lighter steering effort back then.


Cars i've had with great steering feedback:

FRS/86
E36 M3 > E46 M3
991.2 GT3

458 was accurate... but extremely boosted and very light. most ferrari's are like this which i'm not a fan of.
GTR and F80 steering feedback was pretty forgettable. both very accurate though.

Sad to hear that about the 458.... as it's on my list of cars to own one day. Either that or an F430.

What I don't get is, while I understand making cars like a 330 or a 540 with light steering devoid of feel... why does that have to transfer over to the M cars? Why can't an M3 have as much steering feedback as the older M cars?

[Germanauto]

In my experience Porsche is the closest to good old hydraulic steering. The weighting feels extremely natural, like there is proper resistance against the front wheels. Good road feel, just enough information and chatter. You never feel a dead spot on center. Drive even a Macan back to back with a BMW and you'll notice the difference.

I don't have too much experience with GM's Alpha-chassis besides an ATS rental, but I thought the steering on that car was quite nice for EPS. Similar sentiments to Porsche.

As far as BMW goes, I think the M2's steering was passable...barely, thanks to how great the car is overall.

Alfa Romeo's steering is unique in that they were only able to achieve how lighting quick it was thanks to EPS. Alfa's steering makes Porsche's feel a bit slow, and there is a reasonable amount of road feedback, but I think it could be tighter and give more feedback at lower speeds. Overall it's pretty good, and it's a unique experience driving a car with such hyper-quick steering, but Porsche still takes the cake IMO.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

Drive even a Macan back to back with a BMW and you'll notice the difference.

I'll be renting a Macan GTS on a trip to San Diego next month..... so hopefully that gives me a taste...

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I'll be renting a Macan GTS on a trip to San Diego next month..... so hopefully that gives me a taste...

Nice choice.

The Macan's steering reminds me in many ways of my E90. Even when pulling out of the garage it's got some resistance. Love that feeling.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I keep going back and forth between BMW either just being incompetent at properly tuning an EPS rack, or them intentionally doing it to appeal to a broader audience that prefers a "luxury" feel.

It's well documented at this point that BMW intentionally dumbed down their steering feel. C&D even did an interview with some BMW exec who admitted to this.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...steering-feel/

Steering is the most important trademark of a car to me, even more than acceleration and power delivery. Whether I'm twaddling around town, hitting my favorite canyon roads, or cruising on the highway; steering is what gives the most direction connection with the car and provides me the most joy.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

Nice choice.

The Macan's steering reminds me in many ways of my E90. Even when pulling out of the garage it's got some resistance. Love that feeling.

I just can't imagine replacing a sedan with an SUV... even something like the Macan. A 718 has no rear seats, A 911's rear seats are way too prohibitive until my kids get out of the carseat phase, and a Panamera is more than I'd like to spend.

This is where I wish Porsche made a smaller sports sedan.

[mikeokimster]

My e90 328 and e90 m3 had excellent steering feel and feedback. My F80 was so numb and isolated I lost the pleasure of wanting to drive. My cayenne sadly has way better steering feel over the f80.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by stein_325i

Another reason to blame Dieselgate. The Pajun was supposed to be a compact/mid-sized sport sedan below the Panny, but then Dieselgate happened and VAG refocused their efforts, and thus the Taycan is now the Pajun electrified.

Ugh. And I just can't get into EVs. I've tried.. I really have.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I just can't imagine replacing a sedan with an SUV... even something like the Macan. A 718 has no rear seats, A 911's rear seats are way too prohibitive until my kids get out of the carseat phase, and a Panamera is more than I'd like to spend.

This is where I wish Porsche made a smaller sports sedan.

I agree, a smaller Porsche ICE sedan would earn my dollars. My dad was in a similar conundrum where he wanted a Porsche but the 911 was too expensive and Boxster/Cayman too hard to get in/out of, so he ended up in a Macan S. But what he really wanted was a sport sedan. It's really damn good, probably the best driving SUV in the world alongside the very niche Stelvio QV, but there's still something odd about sitting so high up for me. When I get back into my car it hits immediately how nice it feels to sit low and how much lighter/more nimble a sedan is.

There's rumors of a smaller EV Porsche sedan on the horizon, but color me not interested.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by stein_325i

Same, EV's are great for luxurious daily driver's, and would be excellent for cars like S-Class', Roll's, etc. But as a fun daily I just don't find them to be great. The electric sounds all are too weird, there's not transmission to engage with, and no change in feeling, too linear, and basically just steering and throttle management. The handling of the Taycan is good, but while its quick and competent, it lacks the theater and feeling of say a Blackwing or AMG. Then you add in the range which is fine for easy commutes, but when pushing the car, especially if you live in hilly areas or like to go through mountains and canyons, then the range really drops, and here, charging infrastructure still sucks, especially in those mountain areas.

How's the steering feel on your CLS btw? I have fond memories of an E43 I rented many years ago. I wouldn't mind putting an E53 on the list even though it's a little short on performance compared to the other options. My main concern with MB is some of their more recent interiors have had cases of squeaks/rattles which would drive me nuts.

[Humdizzle]

i'm not a fan of SUVs either but the macan feels very much like a car to drive. good steering. PDK is better than the zf8 in any sports car too.

the new 86 is suppose to be close to porsche driving experience... but yeah the back seats are very small and interior quality isn't great.

civic type r is another option. just too bad it looks horrendous.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

i'm not a fan of SUVs either but the macan feels very much like a car to drive. good steering. PDK is better than the zf8 in any sports car too.

the new 86 is suppose to be close to porsche driving experience... but yeah the back seats are very small and interior quality isn't great.

civic type r is another option. just too bad it looks horrendous.

Yeah it just feels wrong for me to have 2 SUVs in the garage, no matter how nimble and good to drive one of them is

I feel like I've graduated past cars like the 86 and civic type r. I'm sure they're great to drive, but those are cars I may have considered in my 20s. Now I need a little more luxury, refinement, and maturity to go along with my hooliganism. In that sense the m340i is a great daily with the exception of steering feel. A 911 really does sound perfect but I just can't imagine stuffing 2 carseats in the back.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I keep going back and forth between BMW either just being incompetent at properly tuning an EPS rack, or them intentionally doing it to appeal to a broader audience that prefers a "luxury" feel.

I've come to the conclusion that BMW deliberately set the cars up the way they do. We are living with the resulting set of compromises.

Reading the BMW engineer comments and the technical data through the years, it is clear suspension design, along with EPS, is part of the strategy to reduce the negative interferences from the steering wheel (driver overactions) and from the road, lateral forces through the track rod ends are both being controlled. Call it damping if we like, it takes away sensitivity.

Most BMW users have different priorities than the enthusiast, even in the M-cars. It's been clear for a few generations of models, (including M-cars), many users want a setup that is more suited to daily driving, (and added luxuries), more than the guy on the track. Halo cars are being bought more these days by those simply wanting the model, more than the finer nuances of things like steering feel. Precision and reasonable weighting, yes, but not some of the negative interference, (which is part of feedback), therefore there is bound to be something missing from our current cars.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by stein_325i

Its pretty decent actually, not really up there with GM or Porsche, or much in actual feel, but its competent and natural feeling, an improvement from the E43 and better than my 540i (which I despised the steering of, among many other awful things like its poor chassis) and the last M550i I drove (which was not deserving of its M badge in any way or form outside of its engine). For its size and class though its very good, since it is a luxo-cruiser.

The engine is more so the star of the show. It retains the theater of the E43 and its loud and awesome exhaust, while being even smoother to rev and crisper in its shifts. Its a very complicated engine so probably not the best outside of warranty, but its got a Turbo I6, with a 48-Volt System and Electric Supercharger that runs off that 48-Volt system. Going into the drive when I first looked at it I thought it would be discombobulated like Volvo's T8 models, but it actually works incredibly well. The Supercharger allows for a torque-fil while the Turbo is still spooling, essentially eliminating lag, and the 48-volt system provides seamless stop start (I don't even turn it off). Paired with the 9-Speed trans it bangs on upshifts and actually provides a bit of punch when in sports mode, and smooth operator in comfort mode. It pretty much does everything I wish my 5-Series did, balancing luxury and sport. Its slower than the M550i, but I don't care about numbers anymore, most of these cars are too fast for their own good anyways. Only area of improvement I would say is the brakes are a tad light which I believe is possibly due to regeneration of some sort.

Interior also has no issues after close to three years, no creaks or rattles either which is ironic because my 5er had an un-diagnosable rattle. Only creak mine will give is if you deliberately put lots of pressure on the trim and I can get a BMW or Audi to also creak by doing the same thing, but I'm not sure why anyone would press on the trim.

Great car, although coming from a 3-series its probably best to stick to something of that size if you want something as agile or fun as the 3er. The E/CLS 53 is a bit more comfort oriented first, and of course being large is aimed at a more Gran Tourer type personality, I guess you could say a bit more "mature" for lack of a better word.

I've really enjoyed the car, but with my work changing to stay at home, my son's X3 is here while he's at college, and only needing to visit the office on rare occasions, I'm probably gonna end up replacing it next year with an SL or GT as I wanna get an AMG V8 before they go extinct.

It was actually Throttle House and Car & Driver that got my attention for the car, this was my first video I watched of them too!

Thanks for the perspective. I'll definitely check out the E53. I REALLY wanted to consider a C63, but Mercedes had to go ruin it and drop a 4 cylinder hybrid into it. At that point I don't care if it offers double the performance of the M3.... I would have a VERY tough time paying that much money for a 4 banger.

[Flacht3]

I realize these cars are a different caliber but having put considerable time behind almost every marquee the only modern cars that really give me a true raw, connected steering feel are McLarens. Porsche GT cars were up there but McLaren LT cars are next level.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by Flacht3

I realize these cars are a different caliber but having put considerable time behind almost every marquee the only modern cars that really give me a true raw, connected steering feel are McLarens. Porsche GT cars were up there but McLaren LT cars are next level.

R&T and EE did a good analysis on this topic. McLaren seems very adamant on traditional steering feel. Wish I could experience one of their cars for myself.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...hich-is-better