[XutvJet]

I'm looking at getting a 987.2 Cayman base model as a fun car in addition to my M235 6MT.

For those that don't know much about these cars, the 987.2 Cayman base has a 265hp port injected 2.9L motor and the 987.2 was available for the 2009-2012 model years. It's good for 5.1-5.3 0-60s and the motor doesn't have the infamous Intermediate Shaft (IMS) bearing issue or bore scoring. The 320hp Cayman S model is about 0.3-0.5 seconds quicker 0-60.

I can afford the Cayman S, but I'm not really needing the extra power plus the base models are about $7-10K cheaper and less optioned which is more preferable to me. I want a sports car that I wind out and explore the limits. My M235 is already a missile. Everything I've read suggests that 987.2s are pretty reliable and cheap to maintain.....for a Porsche. I'm DIYer and I'm entirely comfortable working on my cars. I know the interiors can have the typical German car wear issues with the painted plastics. I'm open to a 6MT or PDK. I do know the PDK is a mountain of money if it fails and the 6MTs have cable shifter issues which can be addressed.

I damn near bought a 2010 987.2 6MT last week but the PPI revealed a number of stored fault codes (no CEL on the dash) that may or may not have been related to failing battery or a battery change and the prior owner not allowing the modules to reset. Either way, I wasn't comfortable with that.

Does anyone have any experience with these cars? Anything I should be aware of?

[Alfisti]

Dino knows his way around these cars, he will chime in shortly I am sure.

Not sure if the Cayman engines have the same issues as the 911's, i don't think they do, but even on the 997.2's it is worth paying for a bore scope just to be sure there is no scoring.

[E46ZHP2]

Had a 2011 987.2 base model and loved every minute of it (3 years, 40k mi). Fun, reliable, daily driver. Hard to beat the value for $. My brother actually bought it from me and still has it with close to 90k miles on it. He keeps detailed records of all his cars expenses and has commented that the Cayman has been the least expensive to maintain of any BMW or Audi that he has had between 40-90k miles. If you find one that has been properly maintained, buy it.

When choosing between the base model and the S, I decided I would start with the base model until my driving capabilities exceeded those of the car. That never happened. Good luck!

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Dino GT

Overrevs is not a problem with PDK.

Thank you for all the information.

Odd question, but what is the Porsche community's infatuation with "over-revs"? My experience is that one of two things happen when a motor experiences a mechanical over-rev. Either the motor is fine or it's not immediately have it occurs. The "not fine" symptoms may be bent valves and kissed pistons, spun bearing, a blow up clutch, a broken transmission, or if you have a BWM S55, a motor out of time and possibly worse.

I can't help but think the Porsche community's interest in over-revs is simply because it's something late model Porsche DMEs can record.

Thank you for the information on bore scoring. I didn't know that it's a potential problem in the 987.2 S motors. I thought it was just a 987.1 motor issue.

Whatever car you decide to buy, I would just have a PPI done to make sure there are no surprises. Good luck.

Agreed. But I am concerned that whatever Cayman I find will have various pending and existing fault codes, just like the 2010 Cayman I had PPI'd last week. I don't which codes are concerning and which aren't. Most any late model German car seems to show a few fault codes even though everything seems to be fine and the CEL isn't on.

There are so few 987.2 Caymans out there to begin with because so few sold between 2009-2012 because the economy was in the tank. It seems like the majority are in TX and CA right now and hardly any are at Porsche dealers because they are too old for their lots so that means they're picked up a auction....sometimes by questionable dealers. All of them I've called are fine with a PPI, so as long as the PPI comes to them. I haven't found one yet that's willing to take it to a Porsche certified shop to get a PPI done (I'd pay for the PPI). As such, I have to rely on Lemon Squad and the like. They do good work, but they don't offer any assistance regarding fault codes other than "It should be further diagnosed".

[Alfisti]

Bore scoring is starting to make the IMS issue look like child's play. It's pretty chronic on some of the engine variants though way less likely on the 91A and way less likely on the smaller capacity engines.

[Cos270]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Bore scoring is starting to make the IMS issue look like child's play. It's pretty chronic on some of the engine variants though way less likely on the 91A and way less likely on the smaller capacity engines.

That's exactly what turned me off of a 996 (not turbo or GT) for good. I was thinking about replacing my E36 M3 with one before the market got hot. I can live with replacing the IMS, sure it's expensive but it's a one time job and can be lumped in with "while you're in there" work. But bore scoring? That's a new or rebuilt engine. I mean, I've heard the 996 has great driving dynamics, but it can't be good enough to warrant having $20k sitting around at all times just in case your engine decides to grenade itself.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by Cos270

That's exactly what turned me off of a 996 (not turbo or GT) for good. I was thinking about replacing my E36 M3 with one before the market got hot. I can live with replacing the IMS, sure it's expensive but it's a one time job and can be lumped in with "while you're in there" work. But bore scoring? That's a new or rebuilt engine. I mean, I've heard the 996 has great driving dynamics, but it can't be good enough to warrant having $20k sitting around at all times just in case your engine decides to grenade itself.

Gotta get in there with a camera to see what is going on. I was at my indy a few month ago, beautiful 991.1 with 40,000 miles, SLAP SLAP SLAP SLAP SLAP SLAP SLAP............. $30K. Now, it's VERY unusual on latter 997s and early 991s but it can happen if the owner drove it hard before it was warm.

[Cos270]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Gotta get in there with a camera to see what is going on. I was at my indy a few month ago, beautiful 991.1 with 40,000 miles, SLAP SLAP SLAP SLAP SLAP SLAP SLAP............. $30K. Now, it's VERY unusual on latter 997s and early 991s but it can happen if the owner drove it hard before it was warm.

Yep. And anytime you ask about it the seller usually doesn't want to mess with having it inspected. Yet everyone will answer every little question when it comes to the IMS (which I think was really blown out of proportion). The bore scoring is a FUNDAMENTAL ENGINE-KILLING flaw and it doesn't get nearly the attention it deserves (though, it does seem to be talked about more).

[Alfisti]

Oh it is front and centre on Rennlist. Massive thread there with case count piling up. I think some of the confusion is people call it a tick, it's more a slap sound. These engines have an inherent.... mechanical sound, so lots of noises. The engine i heard with scoring was VERY easy to pick up, i mean a loud and definitive SLAP, SLAP, SLAP.

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Thank you for all the information.

Odd question, but what is the Porsche community's infatuation with "over-revs"? My experience is that one of two things happen when a motor experiences a mechanical over-rev. Either the motor is fine or it's not immediately have it occurs. The "not fine" symptoms may be bent valves and kissed pistons, spun bearing, a blow up clutch, a broken transmission, or if you have a BWM S55, a motor out of time and possibly worse.

I can't help but think the Porsche community's interest in over-revs is simply because it's something late model Porsche DMEs can record.

its mostly because you can see how the car was driven. and how much of its life it spent in the higher rpms. it doesn't just record over revs, but how often the car spent in the upper part of its rpm band.

if the car has spent alot of time in the upper rpms, then someone might infer the car has seen track work. or driven hard often.

technically it is possible to over-rev a pdk car. at least thats what rennlist tells me. but it would involve something like weird like, downshifting mid-air and sending the rpm near redline, then landing and wheels suddenly accelerating and shooting the rpms past redline.

[Fined]

I had a high mileage (almost 100k miles) 2009 Cayman S. It was a peach. Easy enough to work on, reliable, parts were not crazy expensive if you do the work yourself, car was still very tight after being 10 years old with 9x,xxx miles on it. I'd buy one again if I wasn't so enamored with 911s

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Fined

I had a high mileage (almost 100k miles) 2009 Cayman S. It was a peach. Easy enough to work on, reliable, parts were not crazy expensive if you do the work yourself, car was still very tight after being 10 years old with 9x,xxx miles on it. I'd buy one again if I wasn't so enamored with 911s

Pelican has good deals on parts - a friend who used to help me on my car had a 2010-11? Cayman S - great car. He stated that it was the later models with DI that had more issues.

[mecheng77]

The problem
Is the information on what models are affected by bore scoring is not consistent.

It's unheard of on most engines besides Porsche and it's a huge deal breaker for me unless ppl can say confidently the 987.2 is not affected because I've heard that some non S models are affected? It's so strange because they supposedly improved the coating

[Alfisti]

On the 911, 100% the .2 can still fall foul of it but nowhere near the incidence of the .1's. The smaller the motor, the lower the chance of scoring btw. The biggest culprit, by far, is the .1 - 3.8L.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by mecheng77

The problem
Is the information on what models are affected by bore scoring is not consistent.

It's unheard of on most engines besides Porsche and it's a huge deal breaker for me unless ppl can say confidently the 987.2 is not affected because I've heard that some non S models are affected? It's so strange because they supposedly improved the coating

Bore scoring is pretty rare on the 987.2 non-DI 9A1 2.9L motors. I couldn't find a single instance of bore scoring reported on Rennlist or Planet 9 when I was researching these cars.

I'll be taking my 987.2 base Cayman in for a clutch/flywheel at a local independent shop in the next week and I'm going to ask them about this. The owner/tech races 987.2 Caymans and I assume he would know.

From what I gather, the non-DI 9A1 2.9L motors are pretty robust as they are closed deck and forged crank and pistons and addressed many of the issues in the M96/97 motors. https://nnjr-pca.com/9a1-engine/

[INTMD8]

If I was buying it would be the base just for the reason of port injection.

I had a 997.2 base Carrera and did not like the low speed characteristics of the di engine.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by INTMD8

I had a 997.2 base Carrera and did not like the low speed characteristics of the di engine.

What you talkin bout willis?

[INTMD8]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

What you talkin bout willis?

It had a low rpm hesitation/stumble, worse when cold and overall did not feel as smooth at lower rpm as my 993.

With everything I've driven, I feel port injected motors have smoother idle and low rpm drivability.

JMO

[chris719]

Originally Posted by INTMD8

It had a low rpm hesitation/stumble, worse when cold and overall did not feel as smooth at lower rpm as my 993.

With everything I've driven, I feel port injected motors have smoother idle and low rpm drivability.

JMO

I feel like you're talking about two things that may not be correlated. There's not really any engines that exist with/without DFI in total absence of any other changes, so it's really hard to blame direct injection conclusively. I've gotten plenty of miles on BMW N52, N54, N55, S54, and S55 motors and I don't feel like the low RPM smoothness is any worse at all with the DI motors on this list. My M2C with S55 has a smoother idle than my Mazda MZR 2.5 with port injection lol. I've only driven a 997.1 C2S of 997s so I can't comment about Porsche unfortunately.

[RM7]

Yep, theres a reason its always on the 10 best sportscar list year after year.

[INTMD8]

Originally Posted by chris719

I feel like you're talking about two things that may not be correlated. There's not really any engines that exist with/without DFI in total absence of any other changes, so it's really hard to blame direct injection conclusively. I've gotten plenty of miles on BMW N52, N54, N55, S54, and S55 motors and I don't feel like the low RPM smoothness is any worse at all with the DI motors on this list. My M2C with S55 has a smoother idle than my Mazda MZR 2.5 with port injection lol. I've only driven a 997.1 C2S of 997s so I can't comment about Porsche unfortunately.

I think it correlates directly to the question at hand if I've owned a 911 with what would be a very similar direct injection engine (if he were to buy a Cayman S over the base Cayman).

The low speed hesitation/stumble was not unique to my car, there are endless threads about the same on Rennlist and it really annoyed me that my previous 911 which was 17 years older had much better/smoother drivability so I sold the car and bought another 993.

Certainly not exactly the same but every N55 I've driven has a rougher idle than every N52 I've driven, including my own.

I've been calibrating GM cars for the past 20+ years and found the same with them.... The newer DI stuff is simply not as smooth at idle.

.... I believe this is noticeable (to me anyway) due to there being much less time for complete atomization when being injected directly into the cylinder, even if done so at much higher pressures.

Carbon build up issues don't help anything either.

So again, that is just my opinion based on my observations.

Those that find the phenomenon imperceptible... (what you talking about Willis?) certainly have more buying options.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by INTMD8

I think it correlates directly to the question at hand if I've owned a 911 with what would be a very similar direct injection engine (if he were to buy a Cayman S over the base Cayman).

The low speed hesitation/stumble was not unique to my car, there are endless threads about the same on Rennlist and it really annoyed me that my previous 911 which was 17 years older had much better/smoother drivability so I sold the car and bought another 993.

Certainly not exactly the same but every N55 I've driven has a rougher idle than every N52 I've driven, including my own.

I've been calibrating GM cars for the past 20+ years and found the same with them.... The newer DI stuff is simply not as smooth at idle.

.... I believe this is noticeable (to me anyway) due to there being much less time for complete atomization when being injected directly into the cylinder, even if done so at much higher pressures.

Carbon build up issues don't help anything either.

So again, that is just my opinion based on my observations.

Those that find the phenomenon imperceptible... (what you talking about Willis?) certainly have more buying options.

I don’t think this is science based, first of all. The mechanism you describe isn’t even correct. Idle is just as smooth to me on an N55 as on an N52 and both smoother than an S54.

Anyway, like I said, you’re comparing two engines that have differences that go beyond injector configuration. Simply larger displacement versions of the Nissan VQ engines are much less smooth and they are otherwise nearly identical.