[rogerxp]

Hi,

Posted a couple of weeks ago that my car jumps out of gear, occassionally, in lower gears. Well, it's currently at the dealers, who have just phoned...

They need to take the gearbox out to see what's happening. That'll cost £344 labour (3 hours). If I ultimately need a new clutch the total bill increases to £1,000!!!

They cannot confirm whether or not this will be covered under warranty due to it being wear & tear or a manufacture failure so it 'could' cost nothing.

So best case is it's sorted out for free & worse case is £1,000.

It's an '06' car (330d Manual) and done 46,000 miles. I bought it on 1st May 08 so is covered under warranty. The original warranty will run until 1st March 09 however the AUC warranty will extend this until 1st May 09. I've only put 6-7k miles on the clock so could argue that most of the 'wear & tear' was done before I owned it; can see an argument brewing.

Options -:
1) Chance it with BMW now (£0 or £1,000 or inbetween) & maybe fight
2) Do nothing and see what happens before the warranty expires
3) Take it to an independent but then I'd have to pay the whole bill (ableit a reduced bill).

Having only had the car a short time I can't get rid, especially given the used car market, so am stuck with the car for another 12-18 months at least. It has only jumped out of gear 4-6 times so is hardly a huge issue right now - wanted to start a paper trail at BMW just in case it went just after the warranty expired.

What would you lot do??

[M3-FAST]

Wear and tear? Surely a gearbox should be warranted for 3 yrs/100k miles or not??

How can they give a warranty and then say it 'may' be covered. If you had done more than the allowed mileage for the warranty to still be valid then I would say they have a case.

As the car has only done half the mileage allowed on the waranty then I would argue that the car is not fit for purpose. Also threaten to get legal advice, etc - do you have any free legal helplines dished out with insurance policies, bank accounts, etc you can use?

BMW blurb on the web site:

New Car Warranty


Three years peace of mind The BMW Three Year Dealer Warranty offers complete protection against almost every eventuality and includes BMW Emergency Service.
Repairs are carried out quickly and efficiently by BMW Service Authorised Workshops.
Toward the expiry of your BMW Dealer Warranty, provided your car has been serviced in accordance with BMW recommendations, you will be invited to purchase an Insured Warranty

Is it just me, or is the level of BMW customer service going down the pan?

[xenon]

A clutch should last more than 46000 miles unless it's been seriously abused. BMW trying to wriggle out of their legal and moral commitments, as usual.

I'm waiting for my own battle when my 225 wheels eventually fracture on a car I bought brand new and treat with the utmost care. I've had 4 BMWs from new but this one will be the last. Mercedes or Audi next for me because of the appalling way BMW treat customers.

[FieldingMellish]

I've noticed so many times, how people such as you'd find on this forum, have an enthusiasm for BMW's, but a justified disdain for BMW. Their customer service is utter sh1te.

As for threatening to take legal advice, I'm right there with you. But when I was in dispute with the dealer hwo sold me my lemon 318i, and I mentioned I might take legal advice, I was basically told, "Great. We'll pass teh case over to our legal department", the implication being quite clear: go ahead, we will crush you. I might have won a legal fight, but even if I git a full reund in the end, I'd have been in for montsh of exoensive hassle and I'd have been without a car and without my money for all that time. Didn't exactly make me like or respect BMW as a company. Still love how the 3 Series drives though...

[NFS]

Originally Posted by rogerxp

Hi,

Posted a couple of weeks ago that my car jumps out of gear, occassionally, in lower gears. Well, it's currently at the dealers, who have just phoned...

They need to take the gearbox out to see what's happening. That'll cost £344 labour (3 hours). If I ultimately need a new clutch the total bill increases to £1,000!!!

They cannot confirm whether or not this will be covered under warranty due to it being wear & tear or a manufacture failure so it 'could' cost nothing.

So best case is it's sorted out for free & worse case is £1,000.

It's an '06' car (330d Manual) and done 46,000 miles. I bought it on 1st May 08 so is covered under warranty. The original warranty will run until 1st March 09 however the AUC warranty will extend this until 1st May 09. I've only put 6-7k miles on the clock so could argue that most of the 'wear & tear' was done before I owned it; can see an argument brewing.

Options -:
1) Chance it with BMW now (£0 or £1,000 or inbetween) & maybe fight
2) Do nothing and see what happens before the warranty expires
3) Take it to an independent but then I'd have to pay the whole bill (ableit a reduced bill).

Having only had the car a short time I can't get rid, especially given the used car market, so am stuck with the car for another 12-18 months at least. It has only jumped out of gear 4-6 times so is hardly a huge issue right now - wanted to start a paper trail at BMW just in case it went just after the warranty expired.

What would you lot do??

Your dealer is being a complete and utter arse.

Your car is under warranty and it's jumping out of gear. He should be able to tell you whats wrong with it, without charging you anything.

If it is covered by the warranty he should apologise and sort it out.

If it is not, he should explain why not and quote you for repairs.

Charging to take the gearbox out 'to have a look' is utter bullshit.

Clutch plates suffer from wear and tear. You can check to see if the clutch is slipping by trying to pull away in 4th gear.

Never heard of checking the clutch by removing the gearbox.

No other parts of the gearbox or the clutch mechanism are 'consumable' on that basis, unless they have been grossly abused, they MUST be covered by the warranty and your dealer needs to stop talking shite.

Even if you do need to pay for a new clutch - it can't be £1000 - that's taking the piss.

[roofer]

How does a clutch make a box jump out of gear then????

[CrimsonRedE93]

Originally Posted by roofer

How does a clutch make a box jump out of gear then????

My thoughts exactly, must be the gearbox surely

[dxb335d]

+1.... Roofay.

Also i cant believe they said that to you Roger. disgusting. Good luck also.

[E92Fan]

My advice would be to get straight on to BMW GB Customer Services (01344 426565) and register a strong complaint about the state of your car, and the attitude of your dealer. if you make enough noise, BMW GB might very well support your case and instruct the dealer to examine the car under it's "goodwill" policy. It certainly worked for me in the very early part of my ownership of my car, and I know the same advice has helped other people resolve issues with difficult dealers :thumsbup:

[FieldingMellish]

I found that BMW customer service existed merely to provide a handy way for Dealers to palm you off. "Oh, maybe you should take this up with BMW UK Customer Service, Sir." Maybe the first time you hear that, you can be forgiven for thinking, oh, yes, maybe Customer Service *will* help me. Ho ho ho. They'll certainly *listen* to you: somewhere there's a recording of me ranting to them about my disbelief over how terribly I was treated by my local dealer, who at one stage demanded their courtesy car back by the end of teh day, despite not being able to identify or fix the problem on my car which was rendering it unsafe to drive. Then on that very same day the dealer I'd bought the lemon of a car from told me that they had been informed by BMW in Germany that my local dealer had told BMW Germany that they had indeed both identified and fixed the problem. I told Customer Service all this (and more, ladies and gentlemen, much more) and they said they would definitely ring me back *before* I would have to start driving back to the local dealer to return their begrudgingly loaned courtesy car. I am still waiting that call.

Then when I was in negotiation with the delear who'd sold me the car, trying to agree on a compromise over how much *good money after bad* I would have to lavish on BMW in order to trade my lemon for a car that doesn't get you killed by cutting out at speed, I discovered another use for Customer Service: the dealer told me that they had been in dispute with Customer Service, "battling on your behalf" i.e. that Customer Service didn't want to allow the dealer to bestow on me the sweet deal they altruistically wanted to treat me to and that it was Customer Service who refused to let the dealer give me a better deal. What a laugh. I paid an extra £2.5K over and above the massive amount I paid for the lemon, and when the replacement car arrived it hadn't even been valeted.

How's *that* for customer service?

[E92Fan]

I've never found that problem with Customer Services - then again, I've never let a dealer palm me off on to them.. I've always contacted them first to lodge a formal complaint. Also, i found sending an email to the MD of BMW UK helped considerably...!

[xenon]

^^ eloquently put (FM) and 100% correct.

[FieldingMellish]

Originally Posted by E92Fan

I've never found that problem with Customer Services - then again, I've never let a dealer palm me off on to them.. I've always contacted them first to lodge a formal complaint. Also, i found sending an email to the MD of BMW UK helped considerably...!

Hi Tony. Thanks but I did not "let a dealer" palm me off, I was already well into the dispute when I was advised to contact Customer Services, and although I didn't expect any miracles, I thought it would be churlish of me not to at least try. I bought my car through a broker and he also suggested I contact CS. I told him I didn't hold out much hope and he agreed, but pointed out that I could hardly proceed in my dispute without at least trying all avenues.

I had no reason to go straight to Customer Services in the first place - I had a problem with my car, which I mentioned to the dealer I'd bought the car from (who are located several hunderd miles away), who naturally advised me to have my local dealer look at it. Thus began the grim farce of having the car returned to me, at first being told they had 'fixed' the problem by replacing sensors etc., then being told that they would keep the car in this time until they had definitely fixed it, then the sutuation deteriorated to the point where they told me they could find no problem and suggested it was "a driver issue" i.e. my fault. And they didn't want to see my car again and they refuesed me a courtesy car and they refused to give me any reasoning or in fact any statement at all in writing.

So I would hardly have gone to CS immediately, would I? By the time I did, I was already in touch with my MP and on the cusp of engaging a solicitor. I still think I had a strong case, and even a card or two up my sleeve, and part of me would have relished a fight, but I would have been without a car, and out of pocket, probably for several months. BMW use this against you, they know you will be unlikely to take them on, even if you are in the right. They are lying bullies, and I regard them, as a company, and especially their dealers, teh same way as I regard banks.

I'm glad you have had more luck, of course. Perhaps you have more leverage with them than I do. Again and agian, I regret the fact that so many of us have to love the cars but hate the company.

[xenon]

As a matter of (academic) interest I wonder how much of the dreadful customer attitude is of BMW GB's making, as opposed to BMW AG.

[NFS]

My thoughts on complaining about stuff:

1. Avoid threatening legal action unless you have exhausted all other avenues - if companies think that you might sue, they will tend to pull up the barricades and be LESS helpful.

2. Bear in mind that most 'problems' result from lack of communication. Make sure that the person you are talking too understands that you are right and that they are wrong. Take each and every one of their arguments and destroy them. Keep going relentlessly until they can't understand why they disagreed with you in the first place.

3. If your initial contact appears confused and doesn't understand the decision, he or she probably didn't make it. Find out who is pulling the strings and talk to them. Often this alone will resolve things, because the miscommunication might be between the customer services person and the manager that is directing them.

4. You don't need to be an expert. Experts know a lot about one thing, it doesn't follow that they are particularly good at logical reasoning or lateral thought. In fact experts are often bad at those things. Remember that the person you are arguing with may know more than you, but still be very very wrong. You just need to show them why.

6. Personally, I would only revert to the 'customer services' machine in the event that everything else had failed. This would be precisely because they are not directly involved in the debate and engaging them removes you from direct contact with the person causing the problem (i.e. the fool who won't accept that I am right).

I usually get my way.

[rogerxp]

Thanks for your input (and venting ) but I'm still no nearer deciding what to do. As for 'gearbox' removal or 'clutch' removal; I may have got these mixed up (I'm no mechanic) but all I focused on was what it 'could' cost me.

The dealer was giving me the worst case scenario, as he needed my authority before 'opening her up', but did hint that it shouldn't be a problem - it was the word 'shouldn't' I wasn't comfortable with!!! I think he just looked at the evidence (age, mileage) and the probability of this being wear & tear.

Think I'll keep the courtesy car (as loving the comfort of an SE Coupe as opposed to my spine-shattering M Sport Saloon) over night and tell them I'm going to consider my options.

Think ultimately I'll just leave it and see how often the problem re-occurs over the next couple of months.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by rogerxp

Thanks for your input (and venting ) but I'm still no nearer deciding what to do. As for 'gearbox' removal or 'clutch' removal; I may have got these mixed up (I'm no mechanic) but all I focused on was what it 'could' cost me.

The dealer was giving me the worst case scenario, as he needed my authority before 'opening her up', but did hint that it shouldn't be a problem - it was the word shouldn't I wasn't comfortable with!!!

Think I'll keep the courtesy car (as loving the comfort of an SE Coupe as opposed to my spine-shattering M Sport Saloon) over night and tell them I'm going to consider my options.

Think ultimately I'll just leave it and see how often the problem re-occurs over the next couple of months.

The way forward is this:

1. Ask them if the car is supposed to drop out of gear all of the time.

2. Ask them what they are going to do UNDER THE WARRANTY to stop your car from doing that.

3. Tell them that you are not going to pay them to investigate a warranty claim.

It's broken, it shouldn't be and they are contractually obliged to fix it or demonstrate to your satisfaction that the fault is outside of the terms of the warranty. AT NO CHARGE TO YOU.

[FieldingMellish]

Originally Posted by NFS

I usually get my way.

As Lauren Bacall tells Humphrey Bogart in 'The Big Sleep', "How nice for you!"

Seriously, good points you make. I did only mention 'legal advice' when I had point blank been refused a refund. BMW know rightly that they have a problem with their 4 cylinder petrol engines, but refuse to admit it. It's sickening that they can continue to treat each customer who suffers these problems as if they never heard of such a thing, and eventually they try to get rid of you by letting on there's nothing wrong with the car and that they certainly have no awareness of anyone else experienceing these woes.

Most people work pretty hard to get the cash to buy these cars. They are expensive. So when something goes wrong, it's a big worry. And when someone plays nasty and lies and obfuscates and tries all sorts of bullsh1t on you, instead of helping you out, it makes you angry etc. BUt ultimately it reflects badly upon them, and the cumulative effect of all teh negative experiences they put us through does eventually percolate through to affect the general perception of the brand.

[FieldingMellish]

Originally Posted by NFS

3. Tell them that you are not going to pay them to investigate a warranty claim.

To me this is the crux of the matter. Why should you pay them to investigate whethery they will fix the problem under warranty?

[NFS]

Originally Posted by FieldingMellish

BMW know rightly that they have a problem with their 4 cylinder petrol engines, but refuse to admit it.

I think BMW have already raised the barricades with regard to these engine problems in anticipation of legal action. When a company does this, individuals become nervous about taking any steps to sort out problems in case this affects the wider view of their liability.

Never an easy one to deal with.

[rogerxp]

To clarify the point raised about paying for it to be investigated - I only need to pay for the investigation IF it is proved to not be covered by warranty. If they find a mechanical failure I pay nothing. If they find wear & tear I then get the bill for a) taking the car to pieces to find the fault (£344) and b) any new parts i.e. clutch (up to £1,000 inc. the £344 plus any more labour to fit parts).

[FieldingMellish]

Originally Posted by rogerxp

To clarify the point raised about paying for it to be investigated - I only need to pay for the investigation IF it is proved to not be covered by warranty. If they find a mechanical failure I pay nothing. If they find wear & tear I then get the bill for a) taking the car to pieces to find the fault (£344) and b) any new parts i.e. clutch (up to £1,000 inc. the £344 plus any more labour to fit parts).

But that's still no good. They will potentially be charging you for investigating whether they are going to have to charge you or not! Ridiculous.