[komodo]

Anyone know of some good DIYs or custom door builds using 6 to 8" mid bass drivers? I'm having a hard time finding anything, and it seems like reclaiming some of that storage pocket space would be great.

Already have Match 8DSP + JL 500/1, Morel Virtus 4", Match 8" under seat, Illusion trunk sub with cut-out passthrough, etc. The mid bass doesn't have that bass drum/guitar slam. I have a pair of Illusion ND8 that I want to try under seat, but the door seems like a better location.

[ctuna]

Jehnert Door Panels.

https://www.jehnert.de/en/produkt-ka...an-touring-m3/

https://www.e90post.com/forums/showt...rt+Door+panels

[komodo]

I've seen these before, but it's not clear to me if you just get the smaller lower panel or the whole door panel? I don't see how you would attach just a lower panel on an E90 with the door pocket.

[ctuna]

Did you read the link
Did you look for instructions at there site .
It apparently does require some cutting .
The lower portion of the door is replaced.
Do an open search on it.
Back when people cared about this stuff there
was several articles about these .

Unexpected Creations was Selling the Jehnert products
in the US maybe you should call them up.

https://unexpectedcreations.com/

[komodo]

I did go to both links, and am familiar with the Jehnert stuff, I had looked at them when I did the original install. It wasn't very clear on the site, I didn't see instructions or anything about cutting.

People aren't interested in this anymore? I'm considering doing a fiberglass pod or something in that area. The way BMW molded the door panel does not make it easy!

Thanks for the other link, I haven't seen them before.

[ctuna]

yeah but this used to be a weekly discussions about high end audio
in these cars.

[komodo]

I'm still doing it!
I've got an Illusion Audio ND10 in the truck in a custom box with a blow through to the cabin, but I'm considering doing a 2 x 12" infinite baffle manifold.

My under seats are OK, but I can't really push them. The ND8s should be much better.

[Peter Morrin]

Ok, I am definitely following this. Thanks for bringing it up. I have been looking for exactly this type of information and had not seen the second link provided by Ctuna.

I am earlier on the install/learning/equipment buying curve and trying to do it more economically than the OP. I am comfortable with panel/pod fabrication and have bought some door cards to practice on. I also have some good quality 3 way separates (silk dome tweeter, 3.5" mid, 6.5" mid-base) and some decent old school 2 and 4 channel amps. I have the some old-school electronic cross-overs and can build passive cross-overs, but currently have no DSP capability for time delay or equalization. I currently have the Logic 7 amp system and everything seems to be working as intended (knock on wood). I like the OEM head unit and am reluctant to mess with the MOST system. I plan on learning to code, but am a little nervous about screwing something up.

Before we had DSPs, the pro SQ builders seemed to spend a lot of time building door panels, pods, kickpanels to aim tweeters and mids and to create stiffer baffles for mid-base. Are these techniques now redundant with DSP processing, or have we just become lazy and/or don't want to modify our interiors?

[ctuna]

Enthusiasm for High End Car stereo is wanning like it did when Mp3's came out .
Also it's harder to integrate with the Most Bus system and the multi small speaker
trend.

multi channel dsp amp's are the way to go now.
Audio Tech Fisher the most used here and most supported for DSP tunes
Mosconi /Gladen have been reported to give good results here.

If you have a Sub you should have left the underseats in stereo and
tuned for midrange there. Let the sub carry the low end only .

[Peter Morrin]

Based on Ctuna's comments, let's start from a base assumption of a DSP plus multichannel amplification. The Match Up 7 BMW seems to be one of the easiest ways to do this at around $1000. What are the next steps to better sound?

-Sound deadening of doors?
-Replace existing tweeters?
-Replace 4" mids?
-Replace under-seat subs?
-Add a rear sub with additional amplifer?
-Add a 3-way front stage with 6.5-8" mid base in door to fill the gap between the 4" mid and 8" under-seat woofers?

I like the Jenhart 3x6.5" mids in a modified door with a fourth under the seat, but it is significant money.

Since I already have suitable 3-way drivers I am tempted to modify the door panels to accept the 3 drivers, run one or two extra sets of wires into the doors to give full DSP control over each driver, and send a mono signal to the underseat subs crossed at 80-100 Hz. If the base was inadequate, a trunk mounted sub with separate amplification could be added through the sub output of the DSP. The underseat subs could then be crossed a little higher or might become redundent. Tuning would be required.

My question is would my old-school approach yield better sound quality than I could achieve by simply upgrading the OEM drivers in the OEM locations. I figure I can do the door panels, sound deadening and extra wiring for about $150 in materials and upgrading the speakers would be $1250 if we used the Bavsound kit as a refernence. Labour not counted.

Like the OP, once one commits to modifying door panels or building speaker pods, I think the options for better quality sound improve. Interested in comments.

[ctuna]

This all depends on which system you are starting from .
So which system is it. Base system , Hi Fi or Logic 7?
Base system totally crappy speakers.(Also underseats are glued into there enclosures)
Hi Fi speakers are not that good either underseats are muddy with power.
Logic 7 speakers some people like these but aftermarkets are better.

Bavsound speakers are highly overated you can do much better with other
aftermarket speakers. (plus you will actually know the specs when matching
to your amps)

Yep better door and floor speakers will make a difference.

You don't really need sound deadning with 4 inchers and a tweeter in the door.

[tankertoad]

I’d disagree about sound deadening. Any unwanted resonance will affect the sound. It may matter less with smaller drivers but it still matters. My installer “deadens the sh&t” out of the doors regardless of equipment.

[Peter Morrin]

As regards the sound deadening, if one has the door panels off, I will definitely apply sound deadening. My question to this group is what and how? I bought 3 types of material from Second Skin in Florida. The first is a 60 mil butyl rubber with aluminum face sheet to be applied directly to metal surfaces. Excellent adhesive, easy to work with, likely some "mass-loading" benefits due to the aluminum facer. They also sell a mass-loaded foam/vinyl sheet which I am not sure whether it is to be glued to the aluminum facer or left hanging as a type of curtain. The third type of products are foams of various densities that are in sheet form. Again it is not clear exactly how they should be applied to a sheet steel door with a fibre-board and plastic door liner for best effect.

In my case, I plan to mount a 6.5" mid-base to the door and will securely anchor it to the sheet metal. I know the 4" OEM driver is only mounted to the door liner, but I do not believe that is ideal from an accoustic perspective. I have not yet determined how I will mount my mid-range driver, but my gut tells me to securely fasten it to the door structure. I think the OEM location and mounting for the tweeter seems pretty good, unless someone wants to tell me differently. I will mount a silk dome tweeter in the oem location and play with cross-over points, slopes and time-alignement to get something that blends well with the mid-range.

I have a question regarding the treatment of the doors as an enclosure for a mid-base driver. This could be a 6.5" or larger driver in a custom panel or the Jenhard 3 x 6.5" drivers in a custome door enclosure. Do we treat the door as a "sealed box", a "ported box", an aperiodic enclosure, something else? We spend thousands on hardware, sub-enclosures, DSP, but what about the "cabinets".

[ctuna]

There are very few entry's here about custom enclosures especially with regard
to the doors.

You need to go to the dedicated car stereo boards if they exist anymore for that.

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forums/

The two best BMW stereo shops are Unexpected Creations (new jersey )
and MusicCarNW (portland Oregon)

[Peter Morrin]

Not wanting to Hijack the thread, but given Ctuna's experience in this area, would you mind sharing the route that you took in your own vehicle. Based on your experience with your own vehicle, what would you do the same/differently if you were starting from scratch?

[ctuna]

Since I had the Hi Fi system it was easy to install myself.
At that time there was more people like Technic and VpElectricity
on the site.
The prices where more than I was used to for quality stuff that fits
and there was less of it .
I only wanted to do this once and didn't want to be on a continual this
is not good enough path.
So finally I broke down and bought a kit form MusicarNw = VPelectricity .
Morel Dotech doors , Jehnert Floors and a JL audio 600/6
JL was the standard then for and amp replacement.
Not sorry this is a high quality system.

If I was looking for something now I would still go with the same speakers
but I would be looking at one of the DSP/Amps and from Audiotech Fisher.
They have some new ones now with more channels and better DSP.

I documented my install it's in the Start here audio sticky.

If you start from the base system or the Hi Fi the path is pretty much the same.
If you start from logic 7 the path is more convoluted and you have to make
some decisions on how much it's worth to you to ditch Logic 7 .

https://www.e90post.com/forums/attac...3&d=1329017429

I am not quite at the level of the Absolute Sound stuff but occasionally I would
buy 300 dollar ruby needles for the turntable.

The stock system's are really crap.

[tankertoad]

For a little more $$$, Audison and Arc Audio both offer powerful multichannel DSP amps.

[ctuna]

Than what.
The audison multi channels didn't have much output the last time I looked.
Audio Tech fisher has a large range of multi channel dsp's with multiple
channels and power levels in the Match and Helix lines and there DSP is well
supported and seems to be ahead of the rest.
Mosconi does to but not as common.
Arc was noted as a high end small brand when I first came here.

[mattanderson]

Originally Posted by Peter Morrin

As regards the sound deadening, if one has the door panels off, I will definitely apply sound deadening. My question to this group is what and how? I bought 3 types of material from Second Skin in Florida. The first is a 60 mil butyl rubber with aluminum face sheet to be applied directly to metal surfaces. Excellent adhesive, easy to work with, likely some "mass-loading" benefits due to the aluminum facer. They also sell a mass-loaded foam/vinyl sheet which I am not sure whether it is to be glued to the aluminum facer or left hanging as a type of curtain. The third type of products are foams of various densities that are in sheet form. Again it is not clear exactly how they should be applied to a sheet steel door with a fibre-board and plastic door liner for best effect.

In my case, I plan to mount a 6.5" mid-base to the door and will securely anchor it to the sheet metal. I know the 4" OEM driver is only mounted to the door liner, but I do not believe that is ideal from an accoustic perspective. I have not yet determined how I will mount my mid-range driver, but my gut tells me to securely fasten it to the door structure. I think the OEM location and mounting for the tweeter seems pretty good, unless someone wants to tell me differently. I will mount a silk dome tweeter in the oem location and play with cross-over points, slopes and time-alignement to get something that blends well with the mid-range.

I have a question regarding the treatment of the doors as an enclosure for a mid-base driver. This could be a 6.5" or larger driver in a custom panel or the Jenhard 3 x 6.5" drivers in a custome door enclosure. Do we treat the door as a "sealed box", a "ported box", an aperiodic enclosure, something else? We spend thousands on hardware, sub-enclosures, DSP, but what about the "cabinets".

1. Constrained-layer damper: The purpose of the buytl + aluminum facing damper is to reduce vibration/resonance on big flat panels (ie., tested by the "knock test"). It is NOT intended to be a sound barrier. All of the installations you see where Dynamat (or similar) is slathered 3 layers deep across every inch of every surface is an absolute waste of material, and unnecessary additional weight. It is simply the wrong tool for that job. Use a small amount in the center of large, flat, panels -- just enough to kill the resonance. There is no need for full coverage, and no need to cover areas that already do not resonate.

2. MLV: This is the sound barrier, and you want the fullest coverage possible to block ingress of outside sound.

3. Foam: Doesn't have much acoustic affect. Use it to reduce rattles and separate the MLV from the CLD (though again, 1/8" spacing won't affect much).

Most of the builds you see out there go way too crazy on the CLD; and it's very rare to see a good application of the MLV.

Good luck!

[Peter Morrin]

Referencing Ctuna's install:
Do you recall how you set up the channels and cross-over frequencies?

Were the 4" Morels and tweeters fed one channel (per side) and the Morel passive cross-over used to separate mid-range from high frequencies? Any idea of the cross-over frequency? I presume the passive cross-overs were 12 db slopes?

Did you high pass the 4" mids using the cross-over in the amp? Again any recollection of frequency?

Did the under-seat Jenharts each get a channel and did you band-pass them or only low-pass?

What did you use the other two channels in the amp for?

When you use the high-level out-put from the head unit, do you get full range front and full range rear? Is there a dedicated low-frequency (sub) output from the head unit? How did you use your head unit out-puts?

[ctuna]

Passive Crossover between the tweeter in the door and the
4 inch speaker in the door only . Then High pass set at the amp for the door
component set.
Passive Crossovers set to -3db via the jumpers for the doors.
(this is a setting between the tweeters and the 4 inch speakers)
High pass at the amp set around 180 for the doors.
Since I have no way of controlling this without DSP it didn't
concern me.

Jehnerts in Floors low passed at around 180 that is what Vp set
them up at . Again controlled by the JL 600/6 no select able curves
no DSP.

https://www.e90post.com/forums/showt...=jl+xd+600%2F6 see entry 2
See above channels 1 and 2 Front doors channels 3 and 4 rear door
channels 5 and 6 under seats.
The other two channels went to the rear speakers although this is kind
of useless. Had to turn the gain all the way down and still fade to av very negative
setting to get them out of the picture.

[Damaskus325]

I have the Logic 7 and wish I could find a speaker to use with the factory amp. My last e92 had the HIFI and I gutted it and added Focal Polyglass components, an Alpine 149BT HU and a Boston Acoustics sealed sub with a 6 channel amp. It sounded VERY good. Not as good as my Boston Pro50 but good nonetheless. I cant do any of that with this Harmon Kardon Logic 7 system. It sounds about as good as a factory optioned system can but its not to my standards. Days like this make me miss my E39. This is also why I HATE new car infotainment systems.