[Asymmetric3]

Greetings garage gurus! Before I humble myself for your input, please know that I am actively searching this and other forums for possible fixes for what(to me) seems like a common yet straightforward electrical issue. I have added as many details as I could to help with your (virtual)diagnosis.

THE CAR:
2011 328i - N51 w/ automatic trans. 157k miles.

THE PROBLEM:
An intermittent no start issue that occurs when: the key fob is inserted AND a chattering noise(sounds very much like a relay) begins from the glove box.

CHECKS:
All systems power up with key insertion
Error codes - none using basic scan tool
Relay Terminal 30G - noise continues when pulled.(relay hot when pulled! ..apparently normal?)
FRM3 module - recently repaired due to being bricked because of repeated start failures.
Battery - less than 2 yrs. Voltage at 12.4V. No water has ever been in the battery compartment.
Ground cable(engine) - appears good. Oil soaked from previous VCG leak but not damaged

IMPORTANT OBSERVATIONS:
•Issue definitely worsens when the car is hot after being driven. This means that morning cold starts
are immediate with some brief mild chatter from the fusebox.
•When the car actually starts, it does so quickly. Therefore, I do not suspect the starter or starter soleniod.
•(relay)chatter is almost always accompanied by soft flickering of the headlights and taillights and usually lasts 2-6 seconds. The hotter the car is, the longer the relay chatters and and lights flicker.
•If the lights stay on, the car will not start.
•If the lights stay off, the car usually starts.
•Pressing the start button(with or without the key inserted) is required to get the lights to go off.

As I recap.. EVERYTHING else on the vehicle works fine! No lights on the dash. No malfunctioning features. There's just the demonic (relay)chatter that is directly responsible for preventing the (hot)car from starting. There is no low voltage or drain. It is very much an ON or OFF issue based on the position of the mystery relay.
Some will say: "It's the FRM(foot) module!" But, I recently had the FRM module repaired when this problem first started.
Some will say: "It's the starter!". But, the starter fires right up once it gets passed the gremlin that's blocking the power to it. It does not stutter or slow-crank.
Some will say: "It's the CAS module!" But, I do not have any of the known symptoms associated with a bad CAS module.
Some will say: "It's the JBE module!" This is the most sensible answer to me since it is directly under the fusebox. BUT, i have none of the known symptoms associated with a bad JBE module either.

My goal here is to reach anyone who has found(or has come close to finding) what the source of the chatter in the glovebox actually IS. And/or what causes it - without having to buy part after part which others claim will resolve the issue.

Once I am done typing this, I will go the garage and re-check every ground cable that I can see. I will also remove the glove box and attempt to find exactly what(most likely a relay) is making the chatter sound.

Thank you for reading this! I am now ready to accept your valued advice, criticisms and flaming insults!

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by Asymmetric3

... 2011 328i - N51 w/ automatic trans... An intermittent no start issue [Does Starter Crank Engine but engine does NOT fire, or is there "NO Crank" when START pressed with foot on Brake?] that occurs when: the key fob is inserted AND a chattering noise(sounds very much like a relay) begins from the glove box. [Two Relays, KL30G & KL15 (Ignition) are located ON/IN the JB Fuse Panel. They are NOT Activated until START button is pressed. Inserting Remote Key into Insert Compartment ONLY activates KLR, which powers Radio & Brake Lights. See Below]
Error codes - none using basic scan tool ["basic scan tool" only reads P-codes in DME (Engine ECU). See Below]... morning cold starts are immediate with some brief mild chatter from the fusebox... (relay)chatter is almost always accompanied by soft flickering of the headlights and taillights and usually lasts 2-6 seconds... Pressing the start button(with or without the key inserted) is required to get the lights [Head/Tail?] to go off...

I will attach ISTA ScreenPrints of SSP wiring diagrams, Component Locations, and Connector Views to NEXT Post. Please refer to those to understand the following. There should NOT be any "Relay Chatter" from the JB Fuse Panel when you simply insert the Remote Key into the Insert Compartment. If there is, you have an issue with the Ribbon Cable that connects the Insert Compartment & START Button to the CAS Module, or with those components themselves.

What IS supposed to happen:
1) When you press START button WITHOUT pressing Brake on AT model, that causes the CAS Module to Activate the KL30G, Relay IO1068 on the diagram.
2) CAS ALSO Activates KL15, the Ignition Relay IO1069, which is soldered onto the JB Circuit Board, and NOT a removable relay like KL30G. If Relay Chatter is occurring from the JB fuse panel, even with KL30G "pulled" from panel, when Ignition is ON, that is likely KL15 chattering. See diagram for KL15 Location. You can probably FEEL the vibration/chatter.
3) CAS also activates KL15-3 which is the Headlight Switch, via the FRM. Diagram is attached showing the Green/Yellow wire (15_LSZ) going from CAS Connector X13376/14 (pin #14 of CAS connector X13376) to FRM Connector X14261/12.

I would suggest trying the following TESTS, and reporting your results:
0) Please Describe "Intermittent no-start": Does Starter NOT Crank Engine, or does Starter Crank, but engine does NOT fire/run?
A) Does Remote Key Lock/Unlock the vehicles Doors in normal fashion?
B) Do Radio & Brake Lights work with Remote Key inserted into Insert Compartment, WITHOUT pressing START Button? No relays on JB Fuse Panel should be active or Chattering at this point.
C) NOW press START Button, WITHOUT pressing Brake Pedal, to merely turn on Ignition. Is there NOW relay Chatter, and WHERE on JB Fuse Panel is the vibration coming from? Near Center? Chatter AFTER pulling KL30G relay on Right side of JB Panel?
D) Repeat Test (C) with Light Switch in ALL different positions (Auto/Off/Parking/Headlights), and see if chatter ceases in any position.
E) If chatter comes from center of JB Panel (KL15) with KL30G removed, try disconnecting the HeadLight Switch Connector, X10164, and see if Relay Chatter Changes.
F) Check X11010 at Top-Left of JB Fuse Panel for any corrosion or damage to any of 10 pins/sockets. Does chatter go away and car start normally if 12V+ is applied to Green Wire at X11010/6, to Activate KL15/IO1069?

From your description & data THUS FAR, the most likely cause of the "Relay Chatter" coming from JB Fuse Panel is KL15, the Ignition Relay (IO1069), since removing KL30G does NOT cause chatter to cease. Since you indicate the HeadLights & TailLights "flicker" (NOT clear to me what HeadLight Switch position is set, or WHEN flicker begins or ends), and KL15-3 activates HeadLight Switch (S8), there appears to be SOME relationship to KL15 chatter.

There is a logical solution to your issue, which CAN be Diagnosed IF:
1) You provide MORE information about When/Where the "Relay Chatter occurs;
2) You perform the TESTS suggested above and report the results;
3) You examine the ISTA ScreenPrints attached to NEXT Post;
4) It would ALSO be helpful if you had Parts Chain such as AutoZone/ Advance Auto read Fault Codes in (1) CAS Module, (2) FRM, as well as (3) DME, and report those codes here.
George

[gbalthrop]

Attached are ISTA ScreenPrints described in prior post, related to 2011 328i, AT, with possible KL15 issues.
George

[Asymmetric3]

UPDATE:
First, I must say.. George, your detective-level input is designed to leave no stone unturned AND is greatly appreciated!

That being said, I have responses to your suggested testing as well as some code updates.

The followed codes appeared once after a recent start:
2ACA Terminal 15-3, Line from CAS electric
2BA2 Terminal 15 deactivation, activation
2DED power Management, closed-circuit current violation

These codes were cleared and have not reappeared.

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

There is a logical solution to your issue, which CAN be Diagnosed IF:
1) You provide MORE information about When/Where the "Relay Chatter occurs;
2) You perform the TESTS suggested above and report the results;
.
.
I would suggest trying the following TESTS, and reporting your results:
0) Please Describe "Intermittent no-start": Does Starter NOT Crank Engine, or does Starter Crank, but engine does NOT fire/run?
The starter cranks fine as long as it is not interrupted by the relay chatter

A) Does Remote Key Lock/Unlock the vehicles Doors in normal fashion?
Yes

B) Do Radio & Brake Lights work with Remote Key inserted into Insert Compartment, WITHOUT pressing START Button? No relays on JB Fuse Panel should be active or Chattering at this point.
All electronic systems start perfectly w/ key insertion. If the car is completely cold(i.e. sat overnight) there is minimal chatter. When the car is hot(i.e. after 15 min or more of driving) there is considerable relay chatter with key insertion or removal.

C) NOW press START Button, WITHOUT pressing Brake Pedal, to merely turn on Ignition. Is there NOW relay Chatter, and WHERE on JB Fuse Panel is the vibration coming from? Near Center? Chatter AFTER pulling KL30G relay on Right side of JB Panel?
Pressing the START button w/o pressing the brake pedal ALWAYS causes relay chatter from the center of the fusebox. The chatter persists with removal of KL30G relay.

D) Repeat Test (C) with Light Switch in ALL different positions (Auto/Off/Parking/Headlights), and see if chatter ceases in any position.
E) If chatter comes from center of JB Panel (KL15) with KL30G removed, try disconnecting the HeadLight Switch Connector, X10164, and see if Relay Chatter Changes.
Pending

F) Check X11010 at Top-Left of JB Fuse Panel for any corrosion or damage to any of 10 pins/sockets. Does chatter go away and car start normally if 12V+ is applied to Green Wire at X11010/6, to Activate KL15/IO1069?
Pending

From your description & data THUS FAR, the most likely cause of the "Relay Chatter" coming from JB Fuse Panel is KL15, the Ignition Relay (IO1069), since removing KL30G does NOT cause chatter to cease. Since you indicate the HeadLights & TailLights "flicker" (NOT clear to me what HeadLight Switch position is set, So for the flickering occurs when lights are set to ON and AUTO. or WHEN flicker begins or ends) ..when keyfob is inserted or removed and/or when start button is pressed., and KL15-3 activates HeadLight Switch (S8), there appears to be SOME relationship to KL15 chatter.

[MikhailK]

I have exactly the same issue on my 2011 E90, your symptoms are 100% match to what I'm experiencing!!!
After removing X11010 at Top-Left of JB Fuse Panel chatter is gone.
Replaced 3 times glove box fuse and relay JB panel to remediate, now, after about 6 months I have a box of those, and issue is still there...
To make things worse - now my doors will sporadically lock/unlock when I use remote on key fob, and of course I cannot start engine...
I've removed, inspected, cleaned and reinstalled every electrical component on passenger side, inside the cabin and under the hood.
Every relay, every fuse, every terminal on every socket and plug...
Not going to give up but would love to get some help in guiding to the right direction so not to waste a lot of time.
This weekend removing and inspecting every ground strap.
Battery is brand new and shows full charge 13.2V

[Asymmetric3]

I am still having the issue. And, I am will to deal with it until I can narrow it down to the cause without removing or replacing anything unnecessarily.

I have read SEVERAL forum posts over the past month or so. This includes online conversations with my local car club. I have finally found one that comes as close as possible to describing my issue while eliminating the things that I know are not the problem(i.e. the battery, neg. grounds, fuses, etc.)

I after reading the articles below, I am fairly confident that - although not completely broken - my CAS module needs to be replaced.

https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1827243

Which lead to this:

https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1752232

I’ll start looking for a good deal on a CAS(and key) today. I’ll also go ahead and put my interior back together. I have had my glove box, under dash panels, tools and countless fasteners sitting in my passenger seat for weeks. I even pulled out my subwoofer and related wiring. I look forward to getting this problem resolved very soon. I appreciate all of the helpful input thus far!

[Asymmetric3]

Update:
The no-start issue has returned!!!

Not long after my last year's post, I removed my battery and took it to get tested at my local parts store. It passed with flying colors. When I re-installed the battery, the entire problem went away completely. The car started immediately and the glovebox chatter was GONE!

I have had problem free starts until the weather started warming up. A few weeks ago, I noticed some faint but brief relay chatter coming from the glovebox when I turned the car off. as the weather got warmer, the chatter started increasing.

Today, the temperature hit 93 degrees! After a long hot drive in 5 o'clock traffic, I parked the car in the driveway and it sat for (maybe)20 minutes. I came back to get in my car and I noticed the daytime running lights where still on! When I attempted to start the car, I got nothing but relay chatter and flickering lights.

I tried disconnecting the battery a few times. But, the problem persisted. All I could think to do was open the doors and the glovebox and let things air out while I sat there sweating. After 10 minutes of that, the car started.

Now, I'm between a rock and a hard place! I am not in the position to buy another vehicle right now. Nor, do I want to waste time and money replacing "suspected" parts. Yet, I know this problem is only going to get worse. Now I'm going to spend the next few days checking fuses, connections and reading multiple forums about how replacing some wildly random part like the windshield sensor or backup camera fuse resolved the problem.

The frustration!!!

[Asymmetric3]

Originally Posted by MikhailK

I have exactly the same issue on my 2011 E90, your symptoms are 100% match to what I'm experiencing!!!
After removing X11010 at Top-Left of JB Fuse Panel chatter is gone.
Replaced 3 times glove box fuse and relay JB panel to remediate, now, after about 6 months I have a box of those, and issue is still there...
To make things worse - now my doors will sporadically lock/unlock when I use remote on key fob, and of course I cannot start engine...
I've removed, inspected, cleaned and reinstalled every electrical component on passenger side, inside the cabin and under the hood.
Every relay, every fuse, every terminal on every socket and plug...
Not going to give up but would love to get some help in guiding to the right direction so not to waste a lot of time.
This weekend removing and inspecting every ground strap.
Battery is brand new and shows full charge 13.2V

I know it's been several months. But, while my issue has resurfaced, I'm hoping that you at least found a permanent fix?

[manobilla]

First of all, thank you Asymmetric3 & gbalthrop for details..

This EXACT problem happened to my car first time few days ago, I mean the 'not-starting' part. Minor relay chatter (from glove box or behind) was there for few months and I was perplexed, but since there were no codes I didn't make it a priority.

Few days ago, I drove somewhere, parked the car in sun (100 degrees in Orlando), only to come back a few mins later and it would not start. I called a tow truck and waited. Gave it another try 30 mins later and it started. Since then it is a constant fear when I drive somewhere that would it start when I need to return (sometimes I leave the car running if it's a quick stop). [thank you Asymmetric3 for elaborating the high heat/temp a possible instigator for this issue]

I was going to order that relay which is on the fuse board in the glove compartment. After reading all on this page, I am not sure if that will solve my issue.

If anyone else has any suggestions, they would be greatly appreciated. @Asymmetric3 @[gbalthrop]

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by manobilla

... parked the car in sun (100 degrees in Orlando), only to come back a few mins later and it would not start. I called a tow truck and waited. Gave it another try 30 mins later and it started...

If there is Relay Chatter from JB Fuse Panel, that suggests an issue with CAS module activation of either the black "KL30G" accessory relay, OR the "KL15" Ignition relay soldered into the JB circuit board (RARELY fails).

Often the issue is simply a bad connection in the X11010 Connector at Top-Left of JB Panel. If you have EVER seen water in passenger footwell, THAT leak source should be corrected FIRST.

QUESTIONS:
1) Last-7 Characters of VIN?
2) Make/Model of any Scan Tool or diagnostic software (INPA/ISTA) available?
3) All Fault Codes read, at least in CAS & DME Modules? If YOU don't have Scan Tool, get codes read at nearest Advance Auto, AutoZone, etc.
3a) If you can get "Freeze Frame Data" (Fault DETAILS) for any CAS code read, please provide that data.
4) Any warning lights on Instrument Cluster, or CC-ID codes?
5) Do you have a basic Multimeter? ~ $10 at HFT or Amazon.

It takes TIME to properly DIAGNOSE an issue. It takes BOTH Time & $Money to Throw parts. Please answer questions above & we'll suggest "Next Steps".
George