swirl flap upgrades

Tambohamilton · 11-01-2023, 06:59 AM

Anyone know of any aftermarket/refurbished upgrades to the swirl flaps to stop them from leaking? Not deletes - not interested.

I'm aware of the redo solutions kit for the older 22mm flaps (my car has 33mm) - something like that but for 33mm I think would be ideal:
https://www.redosolutions.com/produs...cu-6-cilindri/

Also aware of the PMG refurbished manifolds, but they don't ship to the UK...thanks 52%. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303298929776
Looks like they use these 22mm swirl flaps though? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331738954357

My original flaps were leaking and one of them had a chunk of the rubber seal from the flap missing so I replaced the manifold with a Febi item at about 140k miles. Now at 160k miles the Febi manifold is also leaking, though I haven't taken it off to inspect the internals. I should be able to get a refund for the Febi manifold under warranty, but I need to have a replacement so I can use the car while the Febi manifold is away.

...... though maybe I should just be installing a cheap used deleted manifold and see how bad it really is without the flaps for a while. I'd really rather not though!

Tambohamilton · 11-16-2023, 04:41 PM

Bought a deleted manifold to run while the Febi one is off for warranty - let's see how that goes. Also bought a cap to blank off the swirl flap pressure converter - part no 11611437560. Just need to find the time to swap them over now...

Andy198712 · 11-16-2023, 05:57 PM

I honestly didn’t notice any change on my N57 engine when i pulled the flaps out

Tambohamilton · 11-16-2023, 06:44 PM

Auto or manual?

Andy198712 · 11-17-2023, 04:08 AM

Auto, can’t recall if it was mapped then or not
325d 2010 lci 3.0 n57…..

Tambohamilton · 11-17-2023, 04:49 AM

I think auto helps mask it, since you never see high engine load at low RPM.

Still, I'm sure I'll survive with it for a couple of months. Hopefully...

santose90disl · 11-17-2023, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tambohamilton

I think auto helps mask it, since you never see high engine load at low RPM.

Still, I'm sure I'll survive with it for a couple of months. Hopefully...

Hi I have reinforced 33mm vortex flaps for sale. If interested how to get in touch? I'm in the US. But I can ship.

Tambohamilton · 11-17-2023, 05:29 PM

Oh, that sounds very interesting! Can you share details of them, please? I wasn't aware there were any upgrade options for the 33mm flaps. Hoping your 0 rep/1 post is just coincidence...

santose90disl · 11-18-2023, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tambohamilton

Oh, that sounds very interesting! Can you share details of them, please? I wasn't aware there were any upgrade options for the 33mm flaps. Hoping your 0 rep/1 post is just coincidence...

I'm trying to attach pictures. But for some reason, I can't. I put them up for sale on eBay.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/40463040198...mis&media=COPY

Tambohamilton · 11-18-2023, 02:38 AM

Are those self-made?

santose90disl · 11-18-2023, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tambohamilton

Are those self-made?

Yes

Tambohamilton · 11-18-2023, 04:25 PM

Cool, good work. I'll pass on them, thanks - can make my own if it comes to that.

Tambohamilton · 12-08-2024, 04:15 AM

Installed the manifold with blanks (got a refund for the Febi one). Yep, it's noticeably worse without the flaps, but only up to ~1500rpm; after that it feels basically the same. Up to 1500rpm it's got less torque, sounds more 'diesely'...just clearly running worse.

So I'm back to looking for upgrades for the original flaps, or upgraded flaps etc.

e90Noobie · 12-08-2024, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tambohamilton

Installed the manifold with blanks (got a refund for the Febi one). Yep, it's noticeably worse without the flaps, but only up to ~1500rpm; after that it feels basically the same. Up to 1500rpm it's got less torque, sounds more 'diesely'...just clearly running worse.

So I'm back to looking for upgrades for the original flaps, or upgraded flaps etc.

I guess it just depends if you want to eliminate a failure point or not. It won't matter if you mash the pedal because it's turbo charged.

Tambohamilton · 12-08-2024, 02:27 PM

No, I don't want to eliminate a failure point at the expense of drivability and fuel economy. Not sure I understand your comment about mashing the pedal?

Nadir Point · 12-09-2024, 05:08 PM

BMW didn't pay well-heeled engineers to sit at CAD terminals for thousands of hours designing the intake flow so grease monkeys could take it apart and see what they think might work better.

Tambohamilton · 12-09-2024, 06:31 PM

Is that a vote for keeping swirl flaps, or a vote against upgrading them?

e90Noobie · 12-10-2024, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadir Point

BMW didn't pay well-heeled engineers to sit at CAD terminals for thousands of hours designing the intake flow so grease monkeys could take it apart and see what they think might work better.

Every single professional tuner removes the swirl flaps. If you're not going to be running really high boost then you'll probably be fine with leaving them. The factory boost hoses also leak oil when you're running high boost because they weren't designed for that. This is why aftermarket companies like ATM make upgraded boost hoses.

lnxguy · 12-10-2024, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by e90Noobie

Every single professional tuner removes the swirl flaps. If you're not going to be running really high boost then you'll probably be fine with leaving them. The factory boost hoses also leak oil when you're running high boost because they weren't designed for that. This is why aftermarket companies like ATM make upgraded boost hoses.

Stock cars go through boost hoses all the time.. Same with swirl flaps, they leak on stock cars..

Tambohamilton · 12-10-2024, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by e90Noobie

Every single professional tuner removes the swirl flaps. If you're not going to be running really high boost then you'll probably be fine with leaving them. The factory boost hoses also leak oil when you're running high boost because they weren't designed for that. This is why aftermarket companies like ATM make upgraded boost hoses.

I had a professional tuner tell me that swirl flaps have no effect on drivability the other day...clearly professional tuners don't know everything. Besides that, I doubt all professional tuners would remove the flaps really; after all, I know at least one who doesn't remove the DPF or EGR.

POBEP · 12-12-2024, 01:20 AM

Tambohamilton

I am not a professional (tuner or driver)

As many of us who run d, I do enjoy low-end torque.

IMO (only) it is not great for our engine to be loaded at low rpms.
My arguments are as follows for engine speeds below 1500rom:
- the oil pressure is on the low side
- water pump produce noticeable less flow
- vacuum level is also low (and under load it actually builds some pressure in crankcase)
- torsional forces are higher (harmonic dampener load)

So I re-trained my brain to apply higher torque past 1500rpm.
Then, the perceived feeling of deleted flaps stop bothering you.

Tambohamilton · 12-12-2024, 06:03 AM

1. Pressure is caused by a resistance to flow. For complete lubrication you don't need (or want) pressure; you want oil flow. The volume of oil per rev which the pump moves is sufficient at any rpm to completely lube the engine. If it wasn't, we'd see engine failures all over the place. The only reason oil pressure is needed in an engine is because getting oil into the crankshaft has to work against some centrifugal force due to the crank spinning. Beyond that, basically the lower the oil pressure the better.

2. Again, the water pump is doing plenty at any RPM to properly cool the engine. If it wasn't, hot climates would have big issues with engine cooling.

3. I really doubt it's going to blow the main seals out, or damage anything at all for that matter.

4. Peak torque for the 30d is 1750-2250rpm, IIRC. This is where peak torsional forces are.

One of the things I really like about this car is that it does everything without complaining. It's not a fast car, but nothing bothers it; everything feels effortless and smooth. Deleting the swirl flaps has degraded that. Sure, I could rev it some more and slip the clutch when pulling away and that would do no harm at all, but that's not the point! I want the original low rpm torque and usability back. I'm not asking it to pull up a hill at 30mph in 6th. Just simple low load, low rpm operation like it had when the swirl flaps were in place.

The blanks are a simple 'solution' to the problem of leaking flaps, but I want the performance of the flaps without leaks...I feel like I'm not asking that much really - these are not complex parts.

11-01-2023, 06:59 AM	#1
Tambohamilton Brigadier General 3295 Rep 4,223 Posts Drives: E91 330d Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Herefordshire iTrader: (0)	swirl flap upgrades - not deletes Anyone know of any aftermarket/refurbished upgrades to the swirl flaps to stop them from leaking? Not deletes - not interested. I'm aware of the redo solutions kit for the older 22mm flaps (my car has 33mm) - something like that but for 33mm I think would be ideal: https://www.redosolutions.com/produs...cu-6-cilindri/ Also aware of the PMG refurbished manifolds, but they don't ship to the UK...thanks 52%. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303298929776 Looks like they use these 22mm swirl flaps though? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331738954357 My original flaps were leaking and one of them had a chunk of the rubber seal from the flap missing so I replaced the manifold with a Febi item at about 140k miles. Now at 160k miles the Febi manifold is also leaking, though I haven't taken it off to inspect the internals. I should be able to get a refund for the Febi manifold under warranty, but I need to have a replacement so I can use the car while the Febi manifold is away. ...... though maybe I should just be installing a cheap used deleted manifold and see how bad it really is without the flaps for a while. I'd really rather not though!
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11-16-2023, 04:41 PM	#2
Tambohamilton Brigadier General 3295 Rep 4,223 Posts Drives: E91 330d Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Herefordshire iTrader: (0)	Bought a deleted manifold to run while the Febi one is off for warranty - let's see how that goes. Also bought a cap to blank off the swirl flap pressure converter - part no 11611437560. Just need to find the time to swap them over now...
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11-16-2023, 05:57 PM	#3
Andy198712 Major 160 Rep 1,060 Posts Drives: 2010 E91 325d Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: Cornwall iTrader: (0)	I honestly didn’t notice any change on my N57 engine when i pulled the flaps out
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11-16-2023, 06:44 PM	#4
Tambohamilton Brigadier General 3295 Rep 4,223 Posts Drives: E91 330d Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Herefordshire iTrader: (0)	Auto or manual?
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11-17-2023, 04:08 AM	#5
Andy198712 Major 160 Rep 1,060 Posts Drives: 2010 E91 325d Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: Cornwall iTrader: (0)	Auto, can’t recall if it was mapped then or not 325d 2010 lci 3.0 n57…..
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11-17-2023, 04:49 AM	#6
Tambohamilton Brigadier General 3295 Rep 4,223 Posts Drives: E91 330d Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Herefordshire iTrader: (0)	I think auto helps mask it, since you never see high engine load at low RPM. Still, I'm sure I'll survive with it for a couple of months. Hopefully...
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11-17-2023, 05:29 PM	#8
Tambohamilton Brigadier General 3295 Rep 4,223 Posts Drives: E91 330d Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Herefordshire iTrader: (0)	Oh, that sounds very interesting! Can you share details of them, please? I wasn't aware there were any upgrade options for the 33mm flaps. Hoping your 0 rep/1 post is just coincidence...
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11-18-2023, 02:38 AM	#10
Tambohamilton Brigadier General 3295 Rep 4,223 Posts Drives: E91 330d Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Herefordshire iTrader: (0)	Are those self-made?
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11-18-2023, 04:25 PM	#12
Tambohamilton Brigadier General 3295 Rep 4,223 Posts Drives: E91 330d Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Herefordshire iTrader: (0)	Cool, good work. I'll pass on them, thanks - can make my own if it comes to that.
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12-08-2024, 04:15 AM	#13
Tambohamilton Brigadier General 3295 Rep 4,223 Posts Drives: E91 330d Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Herefordshire iTrader: (0)	Installed the manifold with blanks (got a refund for the Febi one). Yep, it's noticeably worse without the flaps, but only up to ~1500rpm; after that it feels basically the same. Up to 1500rpm it's got less torque, sounds more 'diesely'...just clearly running worse. So I'm back to looking for upgrades for the original flaps, or upgraded flaps etc.
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12-08-2024, 02:27 PM	#15
Tambohamilton Brigadier General 3295 Rep 4,223 Posts Drives: E91 330d Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Herefordshire iTrader: (0)	No, I don't want to eliminate a failure point at the expense of drivability and fuel economy. Not sure I understand your comment about mashing the pedal?
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12-09-2024, 05:08 PM	#16
Nadir Point Lieutenant 110 Rep 596 Posts Drives: Diesel Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: CO iTrader: (0)	BMW didn't pay well-heeled engineers to sit at CAD terminals for thousands of hours designing the intake flow so grease monkeys could take it apart and see what they think might work better.
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12-09-2024, 06:31 PM	#17
Tambohamilton Brigadier General 3295 Rep 4,223 Posts Drives: E91 330d Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Herefordshire iTrader: (0)	Is that a vote for keeping swirl flaps, or a vote against upgrading them?
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12-12-2024, 01:20 AM	#21
POBEP Captain 474 Rep 649 Posts Drives: E70 E90 E91 Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Christmas Valley, CA iTrader: (1) Garage List 2007 E91 328ix [0.00] 2011 E90 335d [9.50] 2013 E70 xDrive35d [6.17] 2009 E91 328i [9.50] 2016 F25 xDrive28d [0.00]	Tambohamilton I am not a professional (tuner or driver) As many of us who run d, I do enjoy low-end torque. IMO (only) it is not great for our engine to be loaded at low rpms. My arguments are as follows for engine speeds below 1500rom: - the oil pressure is on the low side - water pump produce noticeable less flow - vacuum level is also low (and under load it actually builds some pressure in crankcase) - torsional forces are higher (harmonic dampener load) So I re-trained my brain to apply higher torque past 1500rpm. Then, the perceived feeling of deleted flaps stop bothering you. __________________
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12-12-2024, 06:03 AM	#22
Tambohamilton Brigadier General 3295 Rep 4,223 Posts Drives: E91 330d Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Herefordshire iTrader: (0)	1. Pressure is caused by a resistance to flow. For complete lubrication you don't need (or want) pressure; you want oil flow. The volume of oil per rev which the pump moves is sufficient at any rpm to completely lube the engine. If it wasn't, we'd see engine failures all over the place. The only reason oil pressure is needed in an engine is because getting oil into the crankshaft has to work against some centrifugal force due to the crank spinning. Beyond that, basically the lower the oil pressure the better. 2. Again, the water pump is doing plenty at any RPM to properly cool the engine. If it wasn't, hot climates would have big issues with engine cooling. 3. I really doubt it's going to blow the main seals out, or damage anything at all for that matter. 4. Peak torque for the 30d is 1750-2250rpm, IIRC. This is where peak torsional forces are. One of the things I really like about this car is that it does everything without complaining. It's not a fast car, but nothing bothers it; everything feels effortless and smooth. Deleting the swirl flaps has degraded that. Sure, I could rev it some more and slip the clutch when pulling away and that would do no harm at all, but that's not the point! I want the original low rpm torque and usability back. I'm not asking it to pull up a hill at 30mph in 6th. Just simple low load, low rpm operation like it had when the swirl flaps were in place. The blanks are a simple 'solution' to the problem of leaking flaps, but I want the performance of the flaps without leaks...I feel like I'm not asking that much really - these are not complex parts.
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