[TXSTYLE]

Impressive! I had a feeling BMW was doing well, even in a perceived down economy. People will still spend on Luxury items.

BMW outsold every other luxury automaker by a mile in 2023, a record-setting year for the German marque.

A whopping 2,253,835 Bimmers left dealer lots last year, according to a Robb Report article citing Automobile News. The number is a new record for BMW and reflects a seven percent sales increase compared to last year’s figure.

BMW’s burgeoning EV sector, which includes the all-electric i7 and the buzzy, M1-succeeding XM “Label Red” hybrid, contributed a significant portion with 14 percent of total sales. Exactly 330,956 battery-powered vehicles emblazoned with the blue-and-white roundel moved in 2023, accounting for 14 percent of total sales and a year-over-year BMW EV sales increase of 92 percent.[/url]

More:
https://www.maxim.com/rides/bmw-is-t...ury-automaker/

[BMWCCA1]

I can remember when they sold sport cars!

[infinitekidM2C]

I contributed to that. Where's my thank you card BMW.

[chassis]

This is a golden age for BMW. Congratulations to them.

VAG (Audi, Porsche) are holding their own. Porsche is on an upward trajectory, in a higher price tier and lower unit volume segment than BMW.

MB is a mess. Not much needs to be said for their poor new car quality, dealer experience and reliability.

[Pauly Wauly]

Originally Posted by BMWCCA1

I can remember when they sold sport cars!

They still sell sports cars
https://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/bmw-m/models.html

[BMWCCA1]

Originally Posted by Pauly Wauly

They still sell sports cars
https://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/bmw-m/models.html

Your link opens to an X6! Proved my point.

And then the choice of selections includes "High-performance M models" and "Performance M models". Remember when an "M" was simply the highest performance model available in any body style? Sad self-admission of how they've mucked up the whole "M is for Marketing" thing.

Navigating further you eventually get to the M2 for which under "Features and Specs" you'll find the colors available but not the weight! That is certainly High-Performance.

When you Google it, you'll find the listed weight for the 2024 M2 is listed at 3,814-pounds. Further Googling will show you the first M3 weighed 2,857-pounds. We've certainly come a long way.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by BMWCCA1

Your link opens to an X6! Proved my point.

So are you saying they shouldn't respond to market trends? Hell even Ferrari's come out with an SUV

Originally Posted by BMWCCA1

And then the choice of selections includes "High-performance M models" and "Performance M models". Remember when an "M" was simply the highest performance model available in any body style? Sad self-admission of how they've mucked up the whole "M is for Marketing" thing.

While I agree "M" is more about marketing now than ever before - that's pretty standard across the industry.... you can have audi S line and mercedes AMG badging on an A4 and a C300. We may not like it but it sells. But that doesn't mean you can't still have a proper "M" car that's the highest performance model available in its body style.

Originally Posted by BMWCCA1

Navigating further you eventually get to the M2 for which under "Features and Specs" you'll find the colors available but not the weight! That is certainly High-Performance.

"eventually"..... you mean literally the first car listed?


As for the specs - it seems the M2 webpage is missing the specs section either due to an error or an incomplete page. If you go to the M3 page, there are absolutely specs listed, including weight - along with engine specs, transmission gear ratios, etc:

Originally Posted by BMWCCA1

When you Google it, you'll find the listed weight for the 2024 M2 is listed at 3,814-pounds. Further Googling will show you the first M3 weighed 2,857-pounds. We've certainly come a long way.

So has every car in existence? Which of BMW's direct competitors haven't increased in weight since 1986?

Not sure if you've driven a modern M car, but they are absolute beasts in terms of performance. While I agree they may not be as visceral of an experience as cars of the past (again, this isn't something exclusive to BMW, this is an industry-wide trend), to say BMW doesn't still make sports cars is crazy.

[GOLFFRR]

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

i think us purists hate where the car game is and heading nowadays. since we are bmw fanatics we take it out on BMW. but everyone has falling in line. although bmw is the worse offender of diluting their sports line brand everyone is doing it. we aren't porche and can sit on the sidelines...

i think moreover we are just pissed that they took the prestige of the sports line away from us, for simpleton folks (have no idea what they are driving) to flex. the AMG, RS, M was primilarly for car folks. Now everyone has the brand attached to it. see balencgia flip flops, LV scarfs. those brands are mega fashion brands but make their money putting their brand on dumbass shit. no one actually owns LV, balencigia fashion clothes, and if they did you wouldn't even know it.

alas most cars are going to shit. my sisters BRAND NEW GLS 63 AMG didn't particulary wow me, and thats the top of the pecking order.

good for BMW, for people mad about this, start buying PORCHE mclaren, supercars, or 60-70 ameircan muscle if you want an era of non watered down sports cars.

tbh it really doesn't matter what else people drive, the M posers have been around since day 1. but if the brand decides to do it, then you need to make a personel choice and vote with your wallet

[spazzyfry123]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

So are you saying they shouldn't respond to market trends? Hell even Ferrari's come out with an SUV



While I agree "M" is more about marketing now than ever before - that's pretty standard across the industry.... you can have audi S line and mercedes AMG badging on an A4 and a C300. We may not like it but it sells. But that doesn't mean you can't still have a proper "M" car that's the highest performance model available in its body style.



"eventually"..... you mean literally the first car listed?
Attachment 3372494

As for the specs - it seems the M2 webpage is missing the specs section either due to an error or an incomplete page. If you go to the M3 page, there are absolutely specs listed, including weight - along with engine specs, transmission gear ratios, etc:
Attachment 3372493




So has every car in existence? Which of BMW's direct competitors haven't increased in weight since 1986?

Not sure if you've driven a modern M car, but they are absolute beasts in terms of performance. While I agree they may not be as visceral of an experience as cars of the past (again, this isn't something exclusive to BMW, this is an industry-wide trend), to say BMW doesn't still make sports cars is crazy.

Bah it's in every enthusiast group.

"They stopped being real when they...

...got rid of the carburetor"

...added power steering"

...put in airbags"

I'm not saying I'm a buyer for the new stuff, but I also don't listen to new music. I think they still have the "driver" in mind. One of the few out there with three pedals still!

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Not sure if you've driven a modern M car, but they are absolute beasts in terms of performance. While I agree they may not be as visceral of an experience as cars of the past (again, this isn't something exclusive to BMW, this is an industry-wide trend), to say BMW doesn't still make sports cars is crazy.

BMW doesn't make a Sports Car, unless you consider a Miata, and a Demon Sports Cars as well, which means the title is useless because it pretty much includes everything.

Sports Car: 2-seat, open top, manual, RWD, skewed towards light weight and handling fun (not seriousness, that's Race Car).

BMW's are moreover GT Cars.

[freakystyly]

Remember when someone said sports cars wouldn't exist without SUV sales?

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

BMW doesn't make a Sports Car, unless you consider a Miata, and a Demon Sports Cars as well, which means the title is useless because it pretty much includes everything.

Sports Car: 2-seat, open top, manual, RWD, skewed towards light weight and handling fun (not seriousness, that's Race Car).

BMW's are moreover GT Cars.

Definitions are ever-evolving and rarely black and white - especially with this topic. It's been beaten to death - but you have to ask yourself where you draw the line? Virtually all cars are heavier, and manual transmissions are all but extinct.

In my mind there's varying degrees of "sportiness" rather than a binary definition of what is or isn't a "sports car". If you're calling them all GT cars (i.e. the M2) - then what does that make cars like the 8 series... MORE GT-ness? You see what I'm getting at here? It's a spectrum, not a binary definition.

Sure, BMW coupes & sedans may gravitate more towards the GT spectrum - but compared to what? Compared to their direct rivals (Audi & Mercedes), I'd say they're very well still on the sportier side. The difference now is they also come with better quality materials and build quality.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by spazzyfry123

Bah it's in every enthusiast group.

"They stopped being real when they...

...got rid of the carburetor"

...added power steering"

...put in airbags"

I'm not saying I'm a buyer for the new stuff, but I also don't listen to new music. I think they still have the "driver" in mind. One of the few out there with three pedals still!

It's tiring to hear really....

My G80 is RWD and has a 6MT, and can spend hours at the track without breaking a sweat... to me, this is my sports car. But I can appreciate the different generations without hating on the other.

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Definitions are ever-evolving and rarely black and white - especially with this topic. It's been beaten to death - but you have to ask yourself where you draw the line? Virtually all cars are heavier, and manual transmissions are all but extinct.

In my mind there's varying degrees of "sportiness" rather than a binary definition of what is or isn't a "sports car". If you're calling them all GT cars (i.e. the M2) - then what does that make cars like the 8 series... MORE GT-ness? You see what I'm getting at here? It's a spectrum, not a binary definition.

Sure, BMW coupes & sedans may gravitate more towards the GT spectrum - but compared to what? Compared to their direct rivals (Audi & Mercedes), I'd say they're very well still on the sportier side. The difference now is they also come with better quality materials and build quality.

I agree that there should be more categories to split up the GT section (more or less heavy posh do-everything-for-you crap), but disagree that the parameters I laid out do not constitute a Sports Car. There is no evolving correctness. It is what it is. 4-door, 4-seat, FWD/AWD, heavy, Coupe, automatic? No damn way you'll ever get me to agree that those are Sports Cars.

The GT category is FAT, just like the cars. The Sports Car category is skinny, just like the cars.

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

It's tiring to hear really....

My G80 is RWD and has a 6MT, and can spend hours at the track without breaking a sweat... to me, this is my sports car. But I can appreciate the different generations without hating on the other.

^ That sounds like a modern sports car to me. Sports cars used to be defined as a "low small usually 2-passenger automobile designed for quick response, easy maneuverability, and high-speed driving" - (Merriam-Webster) but times have changed and I think the definition of sports cars should include cars like this.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

I agree that there should be more categories to split up the GT section (more or less heavy posh do-everything-for-you crap), but disagree that the parameters I laid out do not constitute a Sports Car. There is no evolving correctness. It is what it is. 4-door, 4-seat, FWD/AWD, heavy, Coupe, automatic? No damn way you'll ever get me to agree that those are Sports Cars.

The GT category is FAT, just like the cars. The Sports Car category is skinny, just like the cars.

I have a different definition. It's simple to me - if it can survive a full track day (i.e. a day of sport) without anything but tire wear and minimal brake wear while putting up respectable lap times... to me that's a sports car. My current g80 can do that (and also happens to be RWD, 6MT, and lighter than the equivalent competitors from Audi &Mercedes). In contrast (and this is also in response to the post talking about dilution of the "M" brand) my previous m340i (which was NOT a true M car) after several laps would have cooked brakes and/or start suffering from heat soak.

[BMWCCA1]

Remember when BMW invented the Sport Sedan?
Probably not—you M-drivers aren't old enough!

[baron95]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I have a different definition. It's simple to me - if it can survive a full track day (i.e. a day of sport) without anything but tire wear and minimal brake wear while putting up respectable lap times... to me that's a sports car. My current g80 can do that (and also happens to be RWD, 6MT, and lighter than the equivalent competitors from Audi &Mercedes).

This^^^^

That is my definition also. Need to be able to do well on track-days out of the box. If it is, it is a sports car.

If it can ONLY do track days and is horrible or impractical on the road like a Caterham, then it is a
track toy sports car.

If it can perform equally well on track and on the street, then it is the best - a dual purpose sports car. That is M2/M3/M4/Corvette/etc.

If it it does much better on road but can be used on track if you accept some limitations, than it is a sporty road car - e.g. M5/CTS-V Blackwing.

I think BMW got the balance just about right - sports cars that do well on road and track, have modern technology and safety, decent dealer experience, and large enough volumes to have replacement parts, aftermarket support, etc, without being too common.

They are being rewarded for it with more sales.

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I have a different definition. It's simple to me - if it can survive a full track day ...

Let me stop you right there chief. No Sports Car was ever created for a track. In fact, just the opposite. They are made for the open twisty roads that all true petrolheads dream of. It's tied to the idea of freedom, which is in short supply with the rules on the track.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

Let me stop you right there chief. No Sports Car was ever created for a track. In fact, just the opposite. They are made for the open twisty roads that all true petrolheads dream of. It's tied to the idea of freedom, which is in short supply with the rules on the track.

Yeah... you have all the freedom in the world below the listed speed limit...

Sorry, couldn't resist the jab But I like to be more pragmatic. I understand the application and love to have fun on public roads as well - give me a good set of twisties (severely lacking in the shitty midwest that I live in) and I'll have a blast.

I personally just think the definition of a "sports car" has evolved. The M3 is not a track car, but it has the capability to handle the track out of the box. It's not a 2 seater convertible, but it'll sure as hell give you a ton of thrills in the twisties. Call it a "sports sedan" or a "very sporty GT car" if you'd like.

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Yeah... you have all the freedom in the world below the listed speed limit...Sorry, couldn't resist the jab

I look at the speed limit as a suggestion that changes depending on the traffic, weather, and light. It's interesting that if you're driving the right car on the right road in the right conditions, you don't have to exceed the limit by much, or at all to have a great time.

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I personally just think the definition of a "sports car" has evolved.

It just hasn't. To evolve the definition means to include cars that don't fit the idea. You're welcome to your opinion, no doubt a confirmation bias based upon your ownership experience, but there are no ///M Sports Cars, and never will be. It's just not a BMW thing to do. And you CAN'T replace the feeling of 1900-2800 lbs, no matter how much tech you throw at it.

Originally Posted by wtwo3

The M3 is not a track car, but it has the capability to handle the track out of the box.

Which literally has nothing to do with being a Sport Car. You're saying it's a great HPDE car, and I agree, but that doesn't reflect anything about being a Sports Car.

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Call it a "sports sedan" or a "very sporty GT car" if you'd like.

I call it a lumbering oaf that's fun to drive, but feels nothing like a true Sports Car.

My Exige is 1,875 lbs, and you're welcome to come drive it any time you like! This experience, my friend, will change your perspective on what a Sports Car is. It's not simply about fun, or weight, or manual, or 2-seat, or open-top, or RWD, it's all of the above, and something BMW has never offered.

City of Gold. by Andrew Thompson, on Flickr