[oscarguitar]

As I was driving home the other day I wondered weather our cars have too much lateral grip.

Now I reaslise this may sound odd, I have 19's on mine and have spent a fortune changing to PS2s. However trying to do anything other than track faithfully around corners requires huge effort, ideally a closed track, lots of room and usually quite a bit of speed.

To enjoy the balance and adjustability of our cars might we get more satisfaction from a bit less grip, giving us the chance to really drive the cars using steering, power, feel and skill rather than yet another easy turn.
Years ago, after giving up two wheels (got married!) I used to have XR3i, Mk2 GTIs 8v and 16v as well as XR4x4 etc, and despite the much lower grip levels, power and general dynamic ability, there was a lot of satisfaction driving them because you could approach their limits on a normal road. Try to do that in a 335d on 19s and it is starting to get a bit silly, very fast and potentially dangerous.

I was wondering if anyone else had the same thoughts/expereince, and if there was anyone on the forum who had changed to bigger wheels and tyres and felt that in doing so they had lost some of the excitement of being that little bit closer to the edge when pushing on?

I'm aware that there are safety considerations in having less grip and I won't be swaping out the 19s for 16" bicycle tyres any time soon but it might be a consideration when I buy my next car.
What do others think?

[jonsteele]

Never crossed my mind to be honest - the fact that I can drive the car as hard as I like and always feel safe is one of the big benefits. You could always turn off the traction control or stability control, that always gets things a bit 'hairy', although considering the experiences I've had in my 20d with it off, I'd be very careful in a 35d!!!

Thinking about it - I don't think its the tyres that give all the grip, it probably all the computer wizardry thats going off that keeps the car so planted!

[oscarguitar]

Good point about the computers. I do switch to DTC and this certainly livens things up a bit. Maybe I need to go the whole hog and switch it off entirely! I do agree about the safety factor, and it might just be the rose tinted "when I were a lad" spectacles kicking in.

What happened in your 20d with the traction control off?

[trixman]

I understand exactly where your coming from.

Round my way, the roads are like ice. So much so you slip on them while walking. It gives you such a better understanding of the car as your sideways most of the time and at very low speeds. I know what the front and back are going to do in lots of different situations.

Only problem is, like you highlighted, the safety aspect. While it's fun being able to get the back end to step out at 1,800rpm I'm sure I would swap it in an instant for more grip when faced with being cut-up by an idiot on a roundabout and having nothing better to do than be a spectator as my ABS tries to control the stop, and failing miserably.

[oscarguitar]

Trixman,

I'm not quite sure if you are TTP but in a way I did expect a posible flaming!

I'm surprised to hear about the roads in Marbella. All that lovely EU money has produced some spectacular roads when I have been in that area. But I have noticed that they get pretty shiny, is that what you mean?

About the idiot on the roundabout, I don't want that to be me, so maybe I'll stick with the electronics and grippy rubber, and pray that everyone else has got it too.

Perhaps I need to get out on a track......

[jonsteele]

Originally Posted by oscarguitar

What happened in your 20d with the traction control off?

I've had some interesting sideways action! Admitedly, the first time, the roads were damp and I was trying to get the rear end out, but the ease and amount of tail flapping took me by surprise - definitely not what I expected from a 2 ltr, oil burner! Luckly I managed to control it and it was on a wide road, but it scared the hell out of my 14 year old son - he's grown up in a world of FWD boringness!

[Hoops]

Cant say that ive ever said to myself - "i wish i had LESS grip!!" - come and drive with me in my car and then tell me you want less grip!!!!

[trixman]

Originally Posted by bmwbailey

Cant say that ive ever said to myself - "i wish i had LESS grip!!" - come and drive with me in my car and then tell me you want less grip!!!!

If anyone is considering that offer... well, don't. Took me a few days to get the stains out anyway

[trixman]

Oh and Oscar, no wasn't TTP. Roads here are terrible around towns. Sunbaked, and as there aren't that many main roads they are hammered by trucks.

Out of town (ironically where there's not much traffic) there's some fantastic newly laid roads that stretch, empty for miles. Can't trust them though (and this is OT) but example being a few years ago a friend of mine and myself were hammering along on our bikes. Came to slower corner which we took knee down at around 60. Immediately after the corner? A shepherd herding his flock of sheep across the road. A very brown trouser moment that one. Luckily flossy and his friends lived to baa another day. My pants, on the other hand, had to be incinerated.

[doughboy]

Originally Posted by jonsteele

I don't think its the tyres that give all the grip, it probably all the computer wizardry thats going off that keeps the car so planted!

The computers cannot increase lateral grip - only physics can do that. They can try to help when YOU'VE ALREADY OVERDONE IT, but not before.

oscarguitar, I find it easy to get the whole car sliding sideways on large roundabouts in the dry, or off roundabout onto slipways etc, the weight of these modern cars sees to that.

But you're right, trying to do that on a regular road bend, in any gear above 2nd needs a lot of speed (and balls)

I have 18's, 225 front and 255 rear PS2's

[NFS]

Originally Posted by doughboy

The computers cannot increase lateral grip - only physics can do that. They can try to help when YOU'VE ALREADY OVERDONE IT, but not before.

oscarguitar, I find it easy to get the whole car sliding sideways on large roundabouts in the dry, or off roundabout onto slipways etc, the weight of these modern cars sees to that.

But you're right, trying to do that on a regular road bend, in any gear above 2nd needs a lot of speed (and balls)

I have 18's, 225 front and 255 rear PS2's

I think the issue is that DSC+ is so efficient that you rarely feel these cars 'on edge'. For a powerful RWD car the 3 series is terribly civilised.

If you switch the DSC+ off on the 330i you very quickly get back to a 'more power than grip' scenario.

The limit mechanical grip doesn't change, but DSC+ is extremely good as stopping you from exceeding the limit, by cutting the power and braking individual wheels.

I think this is why the rear brakes in my car didn't last as long as the fronts.

[oscarguitar]

Originally Posted by bmwbailey

Cant say that ive ever said to myself - "i wish i had LESS grip!!" - come and drive with me in my car and then tell me you want less grip!!!!

Thanks for the offer, but that is sort of the point...You have to be absolutely nailing it (scared sh**less?) to get that feeling.

Interestingly I wonder if the M3 is different, I have driven the last two versions (not the current one) and in both it was possible to jump in drive off and hang the back out without feeling that I was going to kill myself or someone else. If the current M3 is set up in the same way then maybe the Ms have a wider envelope between hero and zero allowing more play before the electronics step in.

[oscarguitar]

Originally Posted by NFS

I think the issue is that DSC+ is so efficient that you rarely feel these cars 'on edge'. For a powerful RWD car the 3 series is terribly civilised.

If you switch the DSC+ off on the 330i you very quickly get back to a 'more power than grip' scenario.

The limit mechanical grip doesn't change, but DSC+ is extremely good as stopping you from exceeding the limit, by cutting the power and braking individual wheels.

I think this is why the rear brakes in my car didn't last as long as the fronts.

That could well be the explanation, I do notice the power being reined in (I used to think it was the auto not hooking up) but I have not noticed the brakes being activated. Reading around I begining to think that I need a bit more commitment! With the DTC on (DSC+ off) it is a bit livelier but I find I still need to be booting it at some speed to straighten it up without using the steering wheel coming off a bend. The concern is that once it starts to go, I won't be able to stop it (PS I used to prefer driving bikes in the rain because they moved about a bit), I never felt that when trying out the earlier M cars.

[DaveC]

Originally Posted by oscarguitar

As I was driving home the other day I wondered weather our cars have too much lateral grip.

I agree with you actually. Cars and Tyres have improved so much that the limits of grip (except throttle induced rear wheel action) are now so high it's much harder to have fun.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by oscarguitar

That could well be the explanation, I do notice the power being reined in (I used to think it was the auto not hooking up) but I have not noticed the brakes being activated. Reading around I begining to think that I need a bit more commitment! With the DTC on (DSC+ off) it is a bit livelier but I find I still need to be booting it at some speed to straighten it up without using the steering wheel coming off a bend. The concern is that once it starts to go, I won't be able to stop it (PS I used to prefer driving bikes in the rain because they moved about a bit), I never felt that when trying out the earlier M cars.

DTC increases all the thresholds for intervention by the DSC+ system. So you are allowed greater yaw, more wheelspin etc before the the electronics reign you in. It will help you catch a slide, but by the time it kicks in it may be too late.

Holding the button down for 5 secs switches DSC+ off completely so you are in full control.

It's reasonably easy to provoke the car into a little tail 'wobble' with DSC+ on, but very hard to get it to slide.

With it off, it's a different story altogether.

[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by bmwbailey

Cant say that ive ever said to myself - "i wish i had LESS grip!!" - come and drive with me in my car and then tell me you want less grip!!!!

+1 Same ere mATe

[Hoops]

Originally Posted by trixman

If anyone is considering that offer... well, don't. Took me a few days to get the stains out anyway

Yeh, sorry about the pantaloons amigo!! Mind you, thats where the black leather comes in to its own to hide any unpleasant stainage!!

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by bmwbailey

Cant say that ive ever said to myself - "i wish i had LESS grip!!" - come and drive with me in my car and then tell me you want less grip!!!!

If I were to base my 'wants' from our little jaunt around a certain round-looking bit of road on the way home the day you bought the 997, I think I'd rather have an extra set of seatbelts !!!

[MEGA]

The computer is designed to stop you sliding. Disable it and terrification will ensue. Trust me.

I've lost the rear multiple times and slid around trading estates on purpose. DTC mode is enough, fully off is just madness.

The grips only there till you ask it not to be!

[Hoops]

Originally Posted by E92Fan

If I were to base my 'wants' from our little jaunt around a certain round-looking bit of road on the way home the day you bought the 997, I think I'd rather have an extra set of seatbelts !!!

Ah, i remember it well!!!!

[doughboy]

Originally Posted by MEGA

The computer is designed to stop you sliding. Disable it and terrification will ensue. Trust me.

I've lost the rear multiple times and slid around trading estates on purpose. DTC mode is enough, fully off is just madness.

Terrification? That's cobblers mate. Normalisation more like.

DSC off make it into a proper car. Its only there to stop eejuts crashing and improve the NCAP rating. Turn it off (when you want to pay attention) and you will discover a new car lurking, even in a 2 litre diesel! Its the only way to feel the real car......

No disrepect, but any engine is enough to spin a car with enough right foot....

[E902717]

Originally Posted by doughboy

No disrepect, but any engine is enough to spin a car with enough right foot....

Thats true, if it isn't then you 'aint trying hard enough