[spirocheter]

This is my first post with this forum. I thought other forum users might be interested in my experience 'upgrading' from a 330d M Sport saloon (04 plate) to a 335d M Sport saloon (57 Plate).

The signs were there it was time to change my car - a leaking windscreen, squeaking brakes (my first non genuine BMW part... big mistake), glow plugs apparently in need of replacement, rear shocks apparently with light misting of oil around... and a desire for something more powerful.

My initial thoughts were an e90 330d manual or 335i manual in the touring guise. After searching though, the price premium for the touring disuaded me. I test drove a 335d and was seduced by the fantastic torque.

My experience with my local BMW dealer was pretty awful, next time I think I'll stick with the private route - those guys are brutes (stealers)... and certainly not interested in the customer experience.... bottom line, sales = money and who cares about long term business?

I must say, I've had the car for three weeks now and had chance to open it up and I'm somewhat regretting my decision to chop in my trusty e46. I'm not wholly decided, but I think it is largely in part to the loss of the lovely manual gearbox.

I have the flappy paddle thingymajigs (had used a loaner 330i M Sport for three weeks previously)... so think I've got the hang of it. They just do not offer the same control and feedback as a manual. It just feels strangely anodyne clicking on buttons and I miss the sensation of the gear snugly engaging and judging the clutch just so (or not sometimes). The auto box just doesn't always do what you want it to. Yes, it is very smooth and usually quick to change gear, but somethings just missing?

The other major problem I'm finding, is there just is not the same feedback as I had through the seat (perhaps slightly less through the steering wheel which was not optimal already on the e46). I am thinking it is probably the run flat tyres. The e90 chassis is a definite improvement in terms of damping, but it just doesn't goad you or excite as much as the ride and handling of the e46.

I would like to change to non-run flat tyres, though have read you have to change back them back to RFTs if taking them back to a dealer... and presumably you have to advise the insurance company (I always go by honesty is the best policy).

I am beginning to wonder, an e90 DMS ed with a manual box might have suited me more.... with non RFTs.

Has my large investment been a waste of time? Can anyone persuade my otherwise.... will I start to discover deeper hidden talents as time goes on? (and learn to trust the prodiguous grip sans feedback?)

I am interested to hear your views?

[MEGA]

The upgrade to non RFTs will give you a hell of alot more feedback and make the car feel more alive.

It sounds like your only real concern beyond that is the auto box. Theres nothing we can do for you on that one as theres no alternative here. Try and get on with it. The majority of people I speak to say they'd never drive another manual now as the bmw auto box is so good. Your one of the first I've seen to say the exact opposite. Personally I've driven the new audi auto but not the bmw auto box.. But for me, manual gearing is part of the experience of driving, and I'd not be without it.

I hope you get to love the car.

ps, remapping your 335d will for sure help with the addiction. The additional output is staggering, and just ask Carlos (dxb335d) on this forum. Nothing in the world is faster than a 335d remapped. Veyrons, Murcielagos, GT3s, Rocket ships, warp drives, etc.

[E902717]

Welcome to the forum!

I came from a E46 320d M sport with a manual box to my current E90 and i must say i love the flappy paddles and wouldn't go back to a manual, maybe you need to give it a bit more time?

Ditch the run flats and you will get a much better ride, alot of people keep there run flats so when they sell they put them back on (if selling through a stealer) so there isn't any hassle! RE insurance there is no legal requirement to run RFT on our BMW's remember the M division take them off! As far as i'm aware they don't get a spare tyre either just a can of tyre sealant.

A remap will release the inner beast out of your 335d Carlos (Dxb335) will be along shortly and he will have you making love to your car by the end of the day

Put some pics up as well!!!

[NFS]

Originally Posted by spirocheter

This is my first post with this forum. I thought other forum users might be interested in my experience 'upgrading' from a 330d M Sport saloon (04 plate) to a 335d M Sport saloon (57 Plate).

The signs were there it was time to change my car - a leaking windscreen, squeaking brakes (my first non genuine BMW part... big mistake), glow plugs apparently in need of replacement, rear shocks apparently with light misting of oil around... and a desire for something more powerful.

My initial thoughts were an e90 330d manual or 335i manual in the touring guise. After searching though, the price premium for the touring disuaded me. I test drove a 335d and was seduced by the fantastic torque.

My experience with my local BMW dealer was pretty awful, next time I think I'll stick with the private route - those guys are brutes (stealers)... and certainly not interested in the customer experience.... bottom line, sales = money and who cares about long term business?

I must say, I've had the car for three weeks now and had chance to open it up and I'm somewhat regretting my decision to chop in my trusty e46. I'm not wholly decided, but I think it is largely in part to the loss of the lovely manual gearbox.

I have the flappy paddle thingymajigs (had used a loaner 330i M Sport for three weeks previously)... so think I've got the hang of it. They just do not offer the same control and feedback as a manual. It just feels strangely anodyne clicking on buttons and I miss the sensation of the gear snugly engaging and judging the clutch just so (or not sometimes). The auto box just doesn't always do what you want it to. Yes, it is very smooth and usually quick to change gear, but somethings just missing?

The other major problem I'm finding, is there just is not the same feedback as I had through the seat (perhaps slightly less through the steering wheel which was not optimal already on the e46). I am thinking it is probably the run flat tyres. The e90 chassis is a definite improvement in terms of damping, but it just doesn't goad you or excite as much as the ride and handling of the e46.

I would like to change to non-run flat tyres, though have read you have to change back them back to RFTs if taking them back to a dealer... and presumably you have to advise the insurance company (I always go by honesty is the best policy).

I am beginning to wonder, an e90 DMS ed with a manual box might have suited me more.... with non RFTs.

Has my large investment been a waste of time? Can anyone persuade my otherwise.... will I start to discover deeper hidden talents as time goes on? (and learn to trust the prodiguous grip sans feedback?)

I am interested to hear your views?

E46 definitely has a livelier chassis than the e90. I'd describe the e90 as feeling slightly 'numb' in comparison to my old e46 coupe, but the refinement is miles better and the handling is every bit as good.

Some of this might be the RFT's, but I also think it's down to the DSC+ system. It's so efficient now that you don't always get a sense that you are in a powerful car. Obviously acceleration will be great, but with DSC+ it doesn't feel 'raw'. Switching on DTC or disabling DSC+ makes the car feel a lot more lively, but obviously care will be needed.

I've only had one auto - (my last car e60 530d) - I sold the car after 7 months as I was bored with it. There just wasn't enough driving involvement for me. You may end up feeling the same, but it's not a decision to be rushed.

[Oli]

The RFT's sacrifice the ride, and exchanging them for normal tyres, will get a much better feel in the chassis - I know I changed mine, on my 335d, on day 1, after a weeks test drive in one, and just hated the jiggly ride.

The reason I got rid of my 335 was because of the autobox, I just didn't get on with it, but I was coming from two DSG Golfs - R32 and GTI, and it just always felt slow when compared. I have now gone back to manual boxes - S3 and RS4, and wouldn't go back to an auto unless it was anther DSG. The remap does make it feel better and I would strongly recommend this, but it was just never enough for me, albeit very, very fast

[rogerxp]

The auto box is the only reason I wouldn't get a 335d. I tried it but had the same opinion as you. Shame as it's a stonking car. Too soon to do anything rash though, maybe you'll start to 'get on' with the auto box and finally enjoy it, unless of course the 'helpful' dealer can source you an alternative car (330d to remap & new exhaust or 335i manual - like rocking horse shit!!!) and switch you over without too much of a hit.

[zltm089]

OHH MY GOD!!! so true!!!regarding what you said about the AUTO gearbox. I feel the same way too!!! Looks like you enjoy driving!!! and you know how to drive a car with a manual gearbox!!!...Most people don't even know how to properly use a manual gearbox!!!...

But I'm sure you will enjoy the torque and once you get it mapped , your experience will get better...

maybe use the stick instead of the paddles? i do it especially when cornering at high speed, although it isn't that responsive, in my lil head i just pretend that its a manual! lol...




"I have the flappy paddle thingymajigs (had used a loaner 330i M Sport for three weeks previously)... so think I've got the hang of it. They just do not offer the same control and feedback as a manual. It just feels strangely anodyne clicking on buttons and I miss the sensation of the gear snugly engaging and judging the clutch just so (or not sometimes). The auto box just doesn't always do what you want it to. Yes, it is very smooth and usually quick to change gear, but somethings just missing?

The other major problem I'm finding, is there just is not the same feedback as I had through the seat (perhaps slightly less through the steering wheel which was not optimal already on the e46). I am thinking it is probably the run flat tyres. The e90 chassis is a definite improvement in terms of damping, but it just doesn't goad you or excite as much as the ride and handling of the e46"

[zltm089]

about responsiveness aswell...there was a recent thread about our cars having "too much grip"....I kinda felt the same way too...in the sense that, I'm already driving fast, but I sometimes get scared to push the car to its limit...everytime, when I felt that i was going too fast at a bend I only pressed the brakes...and easy peasy...I felt more secure...Now, I don't think its skillfull from me to brake while cornering, but I think due to all the DSC, DTC , computer stuff our cars are not that raw, and mistakes can be easily corrected...yes, they are rear wheel drive and theres the notion of "you need to know how to drive an m3/ rear wheel car fast" unlike evos or stis...which are 4 wheel drive and "easier" to control? But I do feel that sometimes, theres a lack of driver's involvement....i know when pushing a shitty 112bhp 4 door peugeot family saloon, i know and can actually "hear" that I'm actually pushing the car to its limit, but somehow, with a 306bhp coupe its a different story!!!....anyway....just my 2p...

[zltm089]

maybe rogerrxp could comment about his previous experience with the s2k and 350z regarding driver's involvement/ responsiveness etc...

[MattOz]

spirocheter,

I've been in a similar situation to you. I don't "hate" automatics, they have their place, but I've only had one auto, a 535d M Sport and it was wholly ruined by the gearbox experience. My e90 330d M Sport manual was so much better to drive than the 535d.

Dimwitted is about as good as it gets with an auto box, even a modern one. If you enjoy driving, then your car should have 3 pedals in it. With regard to RFT's, I suspect that a change to normal tyres may help, but your driving experience will remain hindered by the auto box I'm afraid.

If I was in the market for a new 3 series, it would be a 330d manual, without a doubt. A truly brilliant all rounder.

Matt

[spirocheter]

Wow - what a great response, I think I'm going to get into this forum thing! Thanks very much for all the comments.

I must say on a positive note, the quality of the E90 is far superior all round the E46. The doors thunk with better solidity, the handles on the doors feel more substantial and the interior is fantastic.

My previous E46 was carbon black with black leather, and whilst I loved it, I tired of being followed by police (and in one instance, I was booked for 'overtaking on white lines' by an overzealous bike cop who was so far off he couldn't possibly have seen.... I had cut it close, but I did not stray over the white lines. The sadistic bully boy (probably jealous) said nothing to my Good Afternoon, but just shook his head whilst looking at my car!

New E90 is 'sparkling graphite' (dark grey) with lemon dakota leather. In fact, my wife even likes it... which is possibly not a good thing granted.

The interior is nice and fresh - I have actually warmed to the minimalist layout (initially I was put off having loved the E46's driver focussed cockpit). I think the sat nav adds to the feel of being cocooned, though so far I don't think the sat nav is as good as my TomTom 930, which I'm still reaching for and sticking onto the windscreen above!

I even bought the updated disk from some guy whose name has been deleted from this forum (though can be found on AVForums which refers to this forum) - this is supposed to add 7 digit postcode functionality, which to be quite frank is useless (so much more hassle to use than even using 5 digit postcode with street names etc). The Speed camera update thing is quite good, but you have to repeat the search all the time to add them to the map... too much of a faff. All credit to Mick though, a good service... at least the map is up to date for a very reasonable sum (and his speed of despatch etc, superb).

Sorry, back to the car and my concerns over the auto box choice...

I certainly think I'll be changing the tyres from run flats. I've since read on tyrereviews.co.uk how other people have found very poor traction from the Bridgestone Potenza's in the wet. Certainly my thoughts.... last night, on a gentle bend, granted a damp road, wheel spin at 70mph!

I was using the direct select and flappy paddles and it was happening around 3-4K revs. The traction control though is so good there's no problem trusting that to reign in my slightly careless application of power.

I must say, a major advantage of using the auto box comes when you are on windy country roads, with less than perfect surface. This constitutes much of my driving living in Shropshire on the border with Wales. Having both hands on the wheel allows much better control and the ability to change gears at moments I'd never have considered. A definite plus. The more I get to use the flappy paddle selection, the more I like the gear box.

If you try and drive the car hard in D mode, it is absolutely useless. For pottering around, it is great - it shuffles quickly through the gears with use of the prodigious torque. The DS mode even without the flappy paddles is pretty good, certainly very smooth - certainly not instantaneous, though if you lift off the throttle a little when changing, it is smoother.

I know it's not DSG quick, but I've heard so many GTI owners and A3 owners who complain about the jerkiness of their DSG boxes from start, I'd rather have the BMs smoother, slightly slower change.

Yes, ultimately as a drivers car it is flawed in not having a manual box. I don't think I could ever escape this. As a drivers car though, petrol I think wins most of the time in sheer performance terms, but in real world driveability, the diesel has many advantages. Living in a rural setting, the torque of a diesel for overtaking drivers hell bent on not letting you overtake (for whatever ego reasons) is great.

Probably like most forum users, I still hanker after an M3. The whole package is err... geared towards driving. I just don't think I could accept the running costs of 15-20K per year and the associated depreciation.... may be one day!

I'll certainly get some pictures up onto the forum of my new steed - I love looking at others' cars.

Incidentally, I phoned my local tyre fitter today (P&B of Oswestry, which is absolutely fantastic in terms of service, price and friendliness)... in relation to the question over replacing my RFTs with standard tyres. The helpful chap there, suggested a can of tyre weld in the boot does not cope with any tyre side wall damage and it may be a good idea to buy a separate space saving wheel or something if I go this route.

On my E46, I found Goodyear F1 Asymmetric to be the best tyres I'd tried (brilliant in wet and dry). I'd also tried Conti Sport3s which were good in the wet, not quite so good in the dry... Michelin Pilot Sport 2s, brilliant in the dry (perhaps the best), though awful in the wet.

I'll have to search the forum for tyre choices and experiences and see what I find there.

[spirocheter]

Where's this Carlos chap dxb335? Can't wait for you to counsel me over my choice!

[spirocheter]

Originally Posted by rogerxp

The auto box is the only reason I wouldn't get a 335d. I tried it but had the same opinion as you. Shame as it's a stonking car. Too soon to do anything rash though, maybe you'll start to 'get on' with the auto box and finally enjoy it, unless of course the 'helpful' dealer can source you an alternative car (330d to remap & new exhaust or 335i manual - like rocking horse shit!!!) and switch you over without too much of a hit.

Whilst I don't want to change the exhaust on my 335d (sounds great actually), I had thought of changing my E46 330d exhaust for a stainless item. I could not find many people who had done this, nor any companies offering a standard item... I was hoping Miltek etc would have one. There were a couple of people saying they would fabricate one for me, though ultimately I didn't proceed with it.

I was worried in modifying it, I might have lowered the resale... certainly would have been hard to have traded in.

The exhaust on the E90 330d is far better looking than the E46 330d for sure!

[acerboo]

335d with auto, unbeatable, give it time and you will appreciate the box, especialy when some twit tries to give you a run, flicking through the paddles gives you an endless stream of acceleration that takes some beating, the torque of the engine with the gearbox is outstanding, look at carlos video at santa pod 335d v 335i says it all. the new 7 speeder is even quicker!! runflats? who cares? if you cant live with the ride buy a merc!

[spirocheter]

I was thinking the ride was a bit soft to be honest, not harsh! Certainly the E46 felt harsher, and as NFS says, the chassis livelier.

ZLTM089... couldn't agree more, I think to get the same level of enjoyment in todays cars, you need to drive them so much faster. Found myself looking at the speedo tonight and thinking I was doing about 20mph slower than the actual speed.... may be good for leaving others behind, but less involving?

The car certainly handles really well. I think if it didn't have flappy paddles it would be going up for sale (or becoming my wife's car)! I am tending to drive it more so in DS and using the paddles to select for roundabouts etc. I do miss trying hard to get the gear changes smooth but love the immense upgrade in power on offer. With the DMS on the cards (when I can work out which insurance company to go with), and an inevitable change to Goodyear F1s, I'd imagine I'll be very pleased.

[zltm089]

welcome on board spirocheter! didn't realise you were new to the forum until i saw ur "new member" status! doh!

" Yes, ultimately as a drivers car it is flawed in not having a manual box. I don't think I could ever escape this. As a drivers car though, petrol I think wins most of the time in sheer performance terms, but in real world driveability, the diesel has many advantages. Living in a rural setting, the torque of a diesel for overtaking drivers hell bent on not letting you overtake (for whatever ego reasons) is great. "

You made some really good points here! LOL....just be careful not to open any Petrol V/S Diesel debates! :-)

Have you tried the Michelins Pilot Sport 2S? I've read some good reviews about them on the forum, didn't know they were that bad in the wet. My rear tyres are coming to an end soon, so was thinking of get the PS2...still searching for the best tyres giving me top performance in wet and dry!!! impossible task!

[NFS]

Originally Posted by spirocheter

I even bought the updated disk from some guy whose name has been deleted from this forum

Not particularly impressed by people selling the modified nav discs with speed cams. If you search on the UK forum you should find plenty of information about getting hold of one of these for free.

Originally Posted by spirocheter

As a drivers car though, petrol I think wins most of the time in sheer performance terms

I don't think this is really the case any more. The BMW diesels are now as quick or quicker (when mapped) than their petrol counterparts.

I'd stick with petrol though because I find it more fun. Pure and simple.

[RagingKileak]

Hello, welcome to the forum.

I have monitored this thread for a while, and even half wrote a reply at work the other day but I couldnt quite work out what my point was.

I have had a 335D since October last year, and before that I had an M3, an S4 Cabriolet, a 350Z and some other fancy stuff...

There is no doubt that out of all these cars the 350Z and the M3 were the more driver focussed, the S4 and the 335D certainly coming in behind them, but I would say the 335D is easily a match for the Audi, as there is still something about the 335D which reminds me of how I like a car to be.

OK, its not raw in the M3 sense, certainly lacking in noise, revs, and that feeling of something a little bit special - the 350Z if anything had more of those things than the M3, albeit it was certainly not as quick. I actually used to get flagged down by passing girls in that which was certainly something quite unique. But what the 335D does is allow me to have 90% real world car and 10% sportscar which is something I cant knock it for, if I head out into the country and put it into DS or manual I can always enjoy myself - the stability/safety factors are there, but I rarely find them intrusive especially with DTC on and TCS off - see my post titled 'a drive at night' to see what I mean about taking the 335D out when I need something special to happen.

I recently had my 336D remapped and whilst I am not ready to do a full review yet, one is coming and I would say that if you have any fears over this car being too safe, or not raw enough - have it remapped and then learn to drive it again - you will have no choice but to treat it with respect because it becomes an absolute weapon which will leave you amazed, breathless and possibly in A&E if you throw caution to the wind.

I have also reviewed the 335D in detail on this forum too - search if your interested

Matt

[MOB]

One thing you may want to consider;

I had an E90 325d which came with Bridgestone runflats - shortly before I changed to my current E92 330d, I bought some Michelin PS2 Runflats, and they were fantastic - the car felt much much better and nicer to thrash on bumpy back roads.

My current E92 330d has Michelin PS2's non-RFT and I'm still convinced that the E90 on PS2 RFT's was better to drive!

Regarding gearboxes, I think the auto suits the diesels perfectly - I wouldnt want a manual.

However my Cayman S is manual and I tried a tiptronic and hated it, runied the car IMO.

[mrpickle]

Originally Posted by RagingKileak

Hello, welcome to the forum.

I have monitored this thread for a while, and even half wrote a reply at work the other day but I couldnt quite work out what my point was.

I have had a 335D since October last year, and before that I had an M3, an S4 Cabriolet, a 350Z and some other fancy stuff...

There is no doubt that out of all these cars the 350Z and the M3 were the more driver focussed, the S4 and the 335D certainly coming in behind them, but I would say the 335D is easily a match for the Audi, as there is still something about the 335D which reminds me of how I like a car to be.

OK, its not raw in the M3 sense, certainly lacking in noise, revs, and that feeling of something a little bit special - the 350Z if anything had more of those things than the M3, albeit it was certainly not as quick. I actually used to get flagged down by passing girls in that which was certainly something quite unique. But what the 335D does is allow me to have 90% real world car and 10% sportscar which is something I cant knock it for, if I head out into the country and put it into DS or manual I can always enjoy myself - the stability/safety factors are there, but I rarely find them intrusive especially with DTC on and TCS off - see my post titled 'a drive at night' to see what I mean about taking the 335D out when I need something special to happen.

I recently had my 336D remapped and whilst I am not ready to do a full review yet, one is coming and I would say that if you have any fears over this car being too safe, or not raw enough - have it remapped and then learn to drive it again - you will have no choice but to treat it with respect because it becomes an absolute weapon which will leave you amazed, breathless and possibly in A&E if you throw caution to the wind.

I have also reviewed the 335D in detail on this forum too - search if your interested

Matt

[spirocheter]

Thanks for your comments RagingKileak and welcome to the forum. I have read your superb review of the 335d, I had read just about every review online / from magazines before purchasing, and had test driven a 330i (flappy paddles), 335i (manual) and lastly the 335d.

I look forwards to reading your review of the remaped 335d, I see you're going down the Evolve route from what I can gather. Where abouts do you plug the unit in? (inside the car?) Is it used to do a remap then disconnected from the car? I guess I can find the answers to these questions from the Evolve website hopefully.

Being judicious with ankle plantar flexion is pre-requisite for making effective progress, especially on wet greasy roads .... even in the non-remapped. I am certainly going to live with the standard car for a while first, so I then have the fun of a further period of acclimatization!

[spirocheter]

Originally Posted by MOB

One thing you may want to consider;

My current E92 330d has Michelin PS2's non-RFT and I'm still convinced that the E90 on PS2 RFT's was better to drive!

.........

However my Cayman S is manual and I tried a tiptronic and hated it, runied the car IMO.

.... I would love a Cayman S, not sure I would fit in so well though at 6ft4 (I tried to get into a Z4M, though could barely sit in the car with my legs hanging out and door open with the seat all the way back. One of the reasons I have gone for the 3 series.

Interesting to hear you preferred the Michelin PS2 in RFT format... I wonder whether it is down to the chassis engineers designing handling to suit RFTs.

My experience with Michelin PS2s on my e46 330d was poor in the wet (and given I use my car as a daily driver, in this country I prioritise wet handling characteristics). Perhaps the RFTs fair better.

Conti Sport3s were great in the wet, lots of road noise in general (doesn't bother me too much), but a little blunt in the dry. Goodyear F1 asymmetrics best all rounder I had on my e46...