[TSM330i]

Which track pads to you guys use? I haven't had my car on the track with the Stoptech's yet and will definitely use track pads when I go (I don't want to melt the street pads as someone I know did recently).
Pagid seems to be a very popular pad used for professional race teams, but I don't know anyone who has used them.

Options are:
Ferodo DS2500 Street/Track
Ferodo DS3000 Race
Hawk Blue 9012 Race
Hawk HT-10 Race
Hawk HT-14 Race
Pagid RS 4-4 (Orange) Street/Track
Pagid RS-14 (Black) Race
PFC 97 Race
PFC 01 Race

Any suggestions would be appreciated too.

[The HACK]

What is your experience level on track?

[TSM330i]

Originally Posted by The HACK

What is your experience level on track?

I have one BMW driving experience weekend, another track weekend and I also have an Indy car driving experience. I have already started threashold braking and am diving much deeper than most everyone in my run group (intermediate). I am getting quite a bit of heat into my brakes. The last event I went to I took it easy on my brakes because I didn't have the Stoptechs or synthetic fluid, so I held back quite a bit. I'm very smooth and don't hammer my car around the track. Smooth seems to be the best anyway.

[longodj]

I use Pagid Yellow RS-19s up front and Porterfield R4Es in the rear. The Pagids really bite down and are VERY consistent turn to turn given your tires can handle them.

S4to335 gave me good advice once. Don't change your pads until you start experiencing "pad fade." If you haven't changed to RBF600 or Super Blue (although the Blue stains your reservoir), I would do so. Here's a definition from Pagid's site to determine which fade you are experiencing:

1.) pad fade
When the temperature at the interface between the pad and the disc exceeds the thermal capacity of the pad, the pad loses friction capability mainly due to out-gassing of binder (matrix) materials in the pad compound. The brake pedal remains firm and solid but the car will not stop no matter how hard you push on the pedal. The first indication is a distinctive smell, a signal to back off. Solutions: better cooling, higher mass brake discs size and vane configuration or higher heat range pad compound.

2.) fluid fade
Boiling brake fluid develops gas bubbles in the calipers. The brake pedal becomes soft and pedal travel increases (because gas is compressible). One can still stop the car by pumping the pedal but efficient modulation is gone. This is a gradual process with advanced warning. The damaged fluid must be completely replaced. Correcting the problem is improved cooling and / or may only require new or higher grade racing brake fluid. The importance of keeping fresh brake fluid in the system and regular bleeding (before every session) cannot be overstressed.

Basically, hard pedal = pad fade, soft pedal = fluid fade. It's possible that with the wrong tires, you can out brake your tires.

For example, I made the stupid mistake of selling my track tires. Since I have to wait until July to get my track wheels, I decided to try a track day on my winter tires...with my Pagids. Really dumb idea, it took for ever to get used to backing off the brakes so that I wouldn't just slide.

[HP Autosport]

Originally Posted by AW325xi

Which track pads to you guys use? I haven't had my car on the track with the Stoptech's yet and will definitely use track pads when I go (I don't want to melt the street pads as someone I know did recently).
Pagid seems to be a very popular pad used for professional race teams, but I don't know anyone who has used them.

Options are:
Ferodo DS2500 Street/Track
Ferodo DS3000 Race
Hawk Blue 9012 Race
Hawk HT-10 Race
Hawk HT-14 Race
Pagid RS 4-4 (Orange) Street/Track
Pagid RS-14 (Black) Race
PFC 97 Race
PFC 01 Race

Any suggestions would be appreciated too.

Try Hawk's DTC series pads!

[nicknaz]

i think hawk blue and pagid orange have lower max temp that those other pads, i wouldn't consider them.

i've had good experiences with carbotech panther plus, which is similar to DS2500. not hard on rotors when cold, decently high operating temperature.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by AW325xi

I have one BMW driving experience weekend, another track weekend and I also have an Indy car driving experience. I have already started threashold braking and am diving much deeper than most everyone in my run group (intermediate). I am getting quite a bit of heat into my brakes. The last event I went to I took it easy on my brakes because I didn't have the Stoptechs or synthetic fluid, so I held back quite a bit. I'm very smooth and don't hammer my car around the track. Smooth seems to be the best anyway.

What I am going to tell you, you will not like. So I must warn you up front.

DO NOT BE OFFENDED BY WHAT I AM ABOUT TO TELL YOU.

You've already built up a lot of bad habits, and at this point, getting track pads will ONLY MAKE YOUR BAD HABITS WORSE.

When I first started doing this "sport" long time ago, I got into a serious discussion with someone far more experienced than I was about getting track pads. He was convinced that I'm just not using my brakes right. Sure enough, he took me out in his car, which was similarly equipped to mine except on pretty much street pads, and he was significantly faster than I was and was able to brake harder than I could dream of on hot California tracks without a sign of fade. While I was fading badly on my Carbotech Panther XP pads which were suppose to be track pads. I couldn't quite figure out what I was doing wrong. He told me he perfected his braking technique until he could basically do 80% of his braking near the beginning 1/2 of his braking zone, and only use 80% of the brake's threshold, and taper off of the brakes starting from about half way through his typical braking zone, and it made a HUGE difference in extending the life and capabilities of his brakes. And that technique transfers to track pads on R-Comps and he was able to brake harder, in a shorter distance, than anybody else could on the same system.

It was so counter-intuitive that I kept searching for better and better pads, until about 20 more track days later, I ended up with the dood as my instructor. Again, he corrected my braking technique and VOILA! It was like a light-bulb went off in my head. I mean, I was by no means a slow driver, and in the BMW CCA advanced group I hold my own and then some. But with a couple of very minor adjustment, I was actually PASSING just about everybody in my group, including Instructors out for Instructor derby. I was completely baffled by this, and he showed that with the same technique learned on the street pads he was able to transfer that same technique and do it on track pads and that basically allowed him to use the brakes to go FASTER, not slower.

Here's where it's going to get offensive, so skip it and don't read the rest if you're thin skinned.

Just based off of your description of what you're doing, you're already doing something wrong. What you're attempting to do, is maximize your equipment's capabilities instead of your braking technique. While this will technically allow you to brake harder, it won't necessarily make you FASTER. I'm going to say a few things that, while it won't be the most sugar coated opinion, it's about as close to truth as e-pinions are going to get. At 3-5 events, you may think you're threshold braking, but you're not. You are just light enough on your foot to not activate ABS. You'll eventually find that "threshold braking" means more than finding that one point prior to ABS engaging...it's hard to describe with words, all I can tell you is that when properly done, you can practically be putting your foot through the floor and ABS won't kick-in. It's not something you learn in 3 events, trust me. The fact you're diving much deeper than your intermediate group-mates means you're just braking later but not harder. It's hard to comprehend, but in reality you can brake harder, in a shorter span, earlier in the brake zone and be FASTER through a turn. If you're telling me you're braking earlier than any of your intermediate group-mates, then there's some positive foundations to build on. It's counter-intuitive, it doesn't make sense RIGHT NOW, but in about 10-15 events the light is going to go on and you're going to say, damn, that "Hack" guy pissed me off but boy is he right.

Then in 5 more events you're going to go, man, I wish that "Hack" guy would have told me, once I figured out how to "brake early" then I need to learn to move my braking point further and further back. And then I'm going to tell you, once you've mastered "early braking", you can start moving your braking points further and further closer to turn-in and also braking in shorter and shorter periods with more and more pressure, but continue to apply the same principles of early braking (and taper off of the last 1/2 of braking into your turn-in to "trail brake) to maximize the use of your brakes.

Somewhere along the line you would have upgraded to Hawk DTC-60s or 70s or Cobalt XR3 or XR2s or Performance Friction PFC-01 or PFC-06es and be done with it.

[satakal]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Here's where it's going to get offensive, so skip it and don't read the rest if you're thin skinned.

I'm going to print all that out, and at my next school, I'm gonna tell my yellow shirt: "lets work on this today".

Thanks for taking the time to explain stuff that's waaaaay over my head. Hopefully I'll be able to apprecaite it 12 months from now.

[boilerdan33]

Great post, Hack. I think I'm ready for my awakening too. I used to run a 911 SC and that car had much more brakes than power. I'm learning the BMW has more engine power than brakes. I haven't even been coming close to threshold braking because I'm afraid I'll smoke the brakes in short order. What is more likely to go first, the pads or the fluid? Which do you recommend swapping out first, and which fluid do you recommend for a street car that gets tracked once a month in the summer? I'd prefer not to change the fluid every 3-4 weeks, (after every event) as some posters are advising in other threads....

[nicknaz]

hack, nice post, thanks for sharing. more self justification for my keep it stock approach =P

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Just based off of your description of what you're doing, you're already doing something wrong. What you're attempting to do, is maximize your equipment's capabilities instead of your braking technique. While this will technically allow you to brake harder, it won't necessarily make you FASTER. I'm going to say a few things that, while it won't be the most sugar coated opinion, it's about as close to truth as e-pinions are going to get. At 3-5 events, you may think you're threshold braking, but you're not. You are just light enough on your foot to not activate ABS. You'll eventually find that "threshold braking" means more than finding that one point prior to ABS engaging...it's hard to describe with words, all I can tell you is that when properly done, you can practically be putting your foot through the floor and ABS won't kick-in. It's not something you learn in 3 events, trust me. The fact you're diving much deeper than your intermediate group-mates means you're just braking later but not harder. It's hard to comprehend, but in reality you can brake harder, in a shorter span, earlier in the brake zone and be FASTER through a turn. If you're telling me you're braking earlier than any of your intermediate group-mates, then there's some positive foundations to build on. It's counter-intuitive, it doesn't make sense RIGHT NOW, but in about 10-15 events the light is going to go on and you're going to say, damn, that "Hack" guy pissed me off but boy is he right.

Then in 5 more events you're going to go, man, I wish that "Hack" guy would have told me, once I figured out how to "brake early" then I need to learn to move my braking point further and further back. And then I'm going to tell you, once you've mastered "early braking", you can start moving your braking points further and further closer to turn-in and also braking in shorter and shorter periods with more and more pressure, but continue to apply the same principles of early braking (and taper off of the last 1/2 of braking into your turn-in to "trail brake) to maximize the use of your brakes.

Somewhere along the line you would have upgraded to Hawk DTC-60s or 70s or Cobalt XR3 or XR2s or Performance Friction PFC-01 or PFC-06es and be done with it.

Great post!

OP --> Cool Carbon pads are a great split between street/race pads.

[TSM330i]

To The Hack: THANK YOU!

Never will I ever turn down advice from more experienced drivers. I do understand what you're saying and I am already trying to do some of what you're describing. Getting the braking done earlier and carrying more speed through the turn. Essentially, setting the car up for the turn a little earlier.
From what I'm reading - do the majority of the braking in the first 1/2 of the braking zone and in the second half try to maintain a more consistent speed and carry that speed through the corner. I guess that's why I'm saying that I'm diving deeper. Once I'm finished braking, I'm carrying more speed and then just leaving the others behind while they're still braking. They're loosing more speed and then have to "catch-up" speed wise once they're done braking.
Am I understanding what you're saying?
My goal usually is to try to carry as much speed through the corners as I can. This is where the stock suspension guys loose out every time and why I'm out running cars with much greater hp.
Thank you again!
Didn't a famous professional racer say the quickest way around a track is to not use your brakes?

[kenneth]

Actually, he said "The longer you are on max throttle, the faster you will be", which is slightly different from what you are saying about braking.

There are instances if you don't brake enough before a turn, you won't be able to get back to max throttle early enough. So it's not about braking less, but the right amount of braking so you're back to max throttle earlier

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by AW325xi

My goal usually is to try to carry as much speed through the corners as I can. This is where the stock suspension guys loose out every time and why I'm out running cars with much greater hp.
Thank you again!
Didn't a famous professional racer say the quickest way around a track is to not use your brakes?

I'm personally not convinced that modified suspension is always better than stock. I would rather be in a stock car than a car with a poorly setup aftermarket suspension (i think adjustability hinders not helps most people)

Personally, I think the goal is to not to maximize in corner speed but to maximize corner exit speed.

I think there's a lot to be said for entering corner slower, at a speed where the car can keep the desired line without braking (another way to look at trailing brakes is that you have to scrub off more speed or else you will have an off at corner exit) and rolling on the throttle immediately after turn in. I personally think getting on the throttle as soon as possible keeps the car stable and contributes greatly to increased corner exit speed

[kenneth]

Not an expert here, but read Ross Bentley's explanation of driver skill levels.

Not exactly his words, but to sum it up: The good driver - maximizing exit speed, the better driver - optimizing corner entry speed as well as exit speed, and the complete driver - does both, but also maintains speed in mid-corner.

[mike-y]

I'm another believer of learning how to drive on a stock or slow car. Learning on a slower car, forces you to become a better driver, because you have to maximize what little grip, braking force, and acceleration you have, and can't use one to hide mistakes.

Also, I see where a lot of people rush out and buy mods for their cars before they really know how the car drives and handles. Then after they become experienced, and understand how to drive fast, they have to change their setup, and end up paying twice for the same mods. It's cheaper and easier to wait and do it right after you have a firm understanding on how your car behaves.

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by Nick Nazareno

I'm personally not convinced that modified suspension is always better than stock. I would rather be in a stock car than a car with a poorly setup aftermarket suspension (i think adjustability hinders not helps most people)

Right on Nick! Especially on bumpy tracks that are a mix of asphalt and concrete, the stock suspension takes those bumps with ease.

[TSM330i]

All: I agree completely with a lower performance car. Daily I drive a 2000 Golf GL (yes, a 2.0 liter with a manual and 167K on it). I can throw that car around quite well at this point. I always say it's better to drive an under performing car at the limit rather than under driving a high performance car to really learn what you're doing. I also came from a 2006 Z06. I was really getting the hang of that car before the family expansion forced me to move to a 4-door car. Dynoed 443 rwhp and a little over 3100lbs. made the transition to my 330i very easy (I was a bit bored with it in stock form to be quite honest).
As for my suspension mods: My car is set-up by a racer who knows what he's doing. It's very neutral and done right. There is no way any stock suspension 3-series is going to hang with me in the corners. Also, the suspension reacts so much quicker than stock. My car soaks up bumps that sent my stock suspension drifting and shuttering sideways. Coming into this car vs. my Z06 is like night and day. The Z06 is a live wire that is just waiting for oversteer. You had to be VERY patient with the throttle coming out of corners due to the instant torque available to break the rear wheels loose. It did help rotate the car mid-corner though. By contrast, my suspension is set-up a little conservative to push slightly through the corners (i.e. safe) so I don't loose the back end, but ends up being very neutral and easily modulated (I need an LSD to play with balance better during cornering).
I also want to point out the fact that my instructor said that I am actually going as quickly as he was on the track. I looked over at his speedo when we were on the track in the instructor's group and he said "it doesn't feel as though we're going any faster in my car does it? That's because we're not." He has an e36 M3 with PSS9's on it.
So, to point out the fact that I don't know what I'm doing just because I've only had the car a short amount of time (a few track days too) and you've never driven with me is ridiculous.

[satakal]

Originally Posted by AW325xi

So, to point out the fact that I don't know what I'm doing just because I've only had the car a short amount of time (a few track days too) and you've never driven with me is ridiculous.

looks like someone forgot to read the part in caps

DO NOT BE OFFENDED BY WHAT I AM ABOUT TO TELL YOU.

its the internets. We know more about you than you do. Scientific fact.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by kenneth

Not an expert here, but read Ross Bentley's explanation of driver skill levels.

Not exactly his words, but to sum it up: The good driver - maximizing exit speed, the better driver - optimizing corner entry speed as well as exit speed, and the complete driver - does both, but also maintains speed in mid-corner.

Agreed. I think the key thing to note is that exit speed is never sacrificed as other aspects are layered in

[TSM330i]

Originally Posted by satakal

looks like someone forgot to read the part in caps



its the internets. We know more about you than you do. Scientific fact.

I wasn't referring to the Hack.

[mike-y]

when someone asked your experience level you said:

I have one BMW driving experience weekend, another track weekend and I also have an Indy car driving experience

so really 2 track days in your car, which you have to admit sounds like you are a beginner. What kind of response were you expecting? If you have so much experience already, why are you asking questions on an internet forum?

idk, people only try to help. Here's the way I see it: you said you had stock pads and non-synthetic fluid, and were overheating the brakes. So then you went out and bought Stoptechs. Did you even think to maybe try a different fluid and possibly a different pad compound with your factory brakes first? And are you still on street tires? A BBK with a race pad may be too much bite for street tires on the track.

At this point, I think your best course of action would be to call those brake pad manufacturers and tell them what your exact setup and vehicle weight is. They will be able to recommend the correct pad compound for that combination. fwiw, I have been pretty happy with carbotech pads, but my car weighs <2,200 lbs, so you would need a different compound than me. you can check out http://www.ctbrakes.com/ for more info.