Take 2 from Vishnu: Tuning the 335i

OpenFlash · 09-23-2006, 06:04 PM

Here's were we left off last week:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30027

As stated in that link, the dyno results represented a partial tune. This was because we only had secondary control over boost targets and AFR targets. As of today, we now have full control over the boost control system. So in summary, here's what we got:

1) Full control over ignition timing (at all rpm/loads)
2) Full control over full throttle boost targets
3) Full control of partial throttle boost targets
4) Full control over atmosphere pressure compensations
5) Partial control over AFR targets

So, in a nutshell, we still have a little bit of work to do with respect to fuel control. I hope to have this sorted out within the next few days. The factory DME keeps the fuel control system in closed loop operation ALL THE TIME. It does NOT go open loop above a certain load and rpm. Needless to say, it's a bit tricky to get in control of. Fortunately, we recently finished a Honda application that relied on similar fuel control strategies. So we only have maybe 10% of work left before we can grab this DME by the scruff of its neck and make it do anything we want

So how is the car to drive now that we completely remapped the boost control system?

One word: Awesome

The BMW engineers tried to do what they can to make the 335i feel naturally aspirated. This meant that it limited boost at partial throttle. So at 1/2 throttle, you would only get 2-3psi of boost. And only at full throttle would you get a full 8-9psi. Yes, it felt very non-turbo like. But it sucked. It seemed as if they overcompensated and made partial throttle performance worse than a naturally aspirated V8 they were trying to emulate. So we fixed that. Now the car sees 7-8psi at 1/2 throttle and a full 11psi at full throttle. Much more "natural" feeling with much better throttle sensitivity/response. That was the thing that bugged me the most about the stock car. The throttle response felt very molasses-like. All the quick transients that you got out of, say an E46 M3, were dulled over. Yes, the stock car was pretty quick. But no, it didn't feel like it had a true high performance engine. Now it does. And it's a whole lot quicker as well

Boost taper. Before, we managed to eliminate the top-end boost taper. But without absolute full control over boost, we had to sacrifice low and midrange boost levels. Before, it would run ~9psi up to 5500prm, then 10psi up to 7000rpm, then back to 9psi by redline. How it holds a solid 11psi from 2000rpm to fuel cut. Of course, this might not be ideal. When we tune it on the dyno, we may have to contour the boost profile a bit. But right now it's nice to know that we have the control that we've always wanted.

Transient Boost response at higher engine speeds. In the stock car, getting off and back on the throttle at higher engine speeeds (say above 5000rpm) resulted in a very slight lag. As if it took a few heartbeats before the DME responded to the demand for boost by closing the normally open wastgates (yeah, you read that right... they are normally OPEN unlike every other boost control system I've seen). Fortunately, we fixed that issue by making the wastegates close earlier in anticipation of a boost demand. So, in essence, as soon as you get back into the throttle, the boost pressure is there. Instantly. Bam. No waiting.

Well, that's it for now. Once we get full control over fuel, we'll dyno the car and post up the results. But so far, the car is a beast. It lights up the tires with great vehemence at the top of 1st gear and just after the shift into 2nd car. And it pulls hard throughout the entire rev range... right up to fuel cut.

FWIW, we've managed to put over 2000 very hard miles on the car so far in the last 10 days. And we started tuning it with just 50 miles on the clock. Everything seems to be rock solid. More work and testing ahead...

Cheers,
shiv
Vishnu Performance Systems

picus · 09-23-2006, 06:11 PM

Man, this has me excited. My one complaint was that rather molassed like throttle response. I'm eagerly awaiting more.

PresaMat · 09-23-2006, 06:30 PM

Great work shiv!!! It sounds like yall are really going to be able to pull top performance out of this car while keeping it durable.

Out of curiousity what are the specs of your car? Auto/Man/options etc. Thanks again for all the great work! I can't wait to see it when its done and dynoed!

Mat

boosted · 09-23-2006, 06:30 PM

Great. I wish you guys success

and make E92 crowd happy.

Also a suggestion. When you ready to post final Dynojet results, please include SAE correction as well

.

Good luck!

BiggieJ · 09-23-2006, 06:34 PM

great work again

cant wait to see the full results! but few questions:

-did you see any problems with overheating? ive heard of few instances where the 335 were overheating and with the extra stress on the engine i was wondering if you saw anything out of norm?

-and will the "chip" be flashable or will it be a piggy back. and can/will you be able to change it back to stock for times you need to take your car back to the dealership?

keep up the good work.

OpenFlash · 09-23-2006, 06:51 PM

PresaMat-- Our car is a 6sp manual with sport package. It's also silver with red interior

boosted-- No prob. The dynojet we use reads considerably lower than other dynojets. With their SAE correction, we had some runs in the 267-269 range. Plus, I've never found dynojets SAE correction to work well with turbo cars. It tends to tends to overstate power when it is cold. I've always found Standard corrections to be more reasonable when dynojets are concerned. I've used it for over 10 years and it's hard to teach a middle-aged dog new tricks.

BiggieJ-- No overheating problems so far. Then again, I haven't done any Autobahn tested. And yes, the Xede is fully removable and unlike reflashes, it will leave no sign (eletronic or otherwise) of any sort of tampering/modifying. And you don't even have to unplug the ECU (which resets it) to do so. We're aiming for installation and removal to take no longer than 15 minutes each.

-shiv

boosted · 09-23-2006, 07:12 PM

Gotcha shiv and sounds good on install/removal time

.

Kit523 · 09-23-2006, 07:26 PM

very good info u got there!

wish to hear more from you!

jmlenz · 09-23-2006, 07:30 PM

Holy Sh%*! you guys are gonna have 335 guys lining up in droves for these things. If these or future power packages can get this beast in the mid 4's 0-60 youll definitely change many minds about picking up that new V8 M3.

Got-BMW? · 09-23-2006, 07:30 PM

So what did it dyno on the same dyno as before?

How much boost will the stock Turbo's handle?

When are you guys putting race gas in it for kicks (to see what she'll do)?

RichP · 09-23-2006, 07:43 PM

Shiv, when I get a 335 next spring when my current lease is up, you have my money for this setup. Your knowledge and expertise is a breath of fresh air in BMW tuning, where normally its a bunch of hacks.

OpenFlash · 09-23-2006, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Got-BMW?

So what did it dyno on the same dyno as before?

How much boost will the stock Turbo's handle?

When are you guys putting race gas in it for kicks (to see what she'll do)?

The stock dyno runs as well as prelim tuning results can be found here:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30027

We've run the turbos as high as 20psi (by accident, of course) in the midrange. By redline, the most boost we've seen so far is 11psi. This is with the stock exhaust. Things may change when we get rid of some exhaust restrictions. The turbos are small, however, so don't expect any Supra-like results without big turbo upgrades ($$ and laggy). We're going to try to extract as much power as possible while still keeping or improving upon drivability. The engine is high-ish compression so I don't foresee running much more than 11-12psi on pump gas. On race gas, we can certainly squeeze things harder but I suspect we'll be limited by max airflow limits with the standard turbos. It'll pick up some sweet torque though.

Cheers,
shiv

picus · 09-23-2006, 08:58 PM

You know, I might be in the minority (I doubt it though), but I'd rather have you work towards an end result that made for a car with better throttle response, better high end, and maybe only 15-20% more overall power, as long as it's nice and reliable on pump gas. It seems like that's the direction you're headed in.

I am sure there are guys that want 700rwhp on 100 octane, but that's just not my thing. I'll order the ECU flash that gives me a little more torque, less throttle delay, and less drop off at the redline but is perfectly safe.

Just imo, of course.

carbo · 09-23-2006, 09:01 PM

Forget about the 335..................how about a simple remap of the 325....crap, your gonna make me trade up aren't you.

OpenFlash · 09-23-2006, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by picus

You know, I might be in the minority (I doubt it though), but I'd rather have you work towards an end result that made for a car with better throttle response, better high end, and maybe only 15-20% more overall power, as long as it's nice and reliable on pump gas. It seems like that's the direction you're headed in.

I am sure there are guys that want 700rwhp on 100 octane, but that's just not my thing. I'll order the ECU flash that gives me a little more torque, less throttle delay, and less drop off at the redline but is perfectly safe.

Just imo, of course.

I'll probably end up making several different Xede maps for different octanes and with different hp/torque curves/boost mapping. Users can pick the one that suits their needs the best. All you'll need to interface with the Xede is a standard laptop with usb or serial port. Uploading maps into the Xede take about 15 sec. The Xede can also hold 2 maps and the user can toggle between the two on-the-fly with a simple dash mounted switch.

In 10 years, we have never provided mapping that is unreliable or disregards component longevity. We're not going to start now.

Cheers,
shiv

SapphireBlackG01 · 09-23-2006, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by picus

You know, I might be in the minority (I doubt it though), but I'd rather have you work towards an end result that made for a car with better throttle response, better high end, and maybe only 15-20% more overall power, as long as it's nice and reliable on pump gas. It seems like that's the direction you're headed in.

I am sure there are guys that want 700rwhp on 100 octane, but that's just not my thing. I'll order the ECU flash that gives me a little more torque, less throttle delay, and less drop off at the redline but is perfectly safe.

Just imo, of course.

I agree with this.

I wouldn't buy the chip for speed or power gains, because honestly, stock is fast enough for me.

I would, however, definitely buy a chip that improved throttle response, and made things a little more interesting up top. And keeping the power gains within a reasonable limit would at least partly ensure some driveability and reliability from the stock equipment.

SapphireBlackG01 · 09-23-2006, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I'll probably end up making several different Xede maps for different octanes and with different hp/torque curves/boost mapping. Users can pick the one that suits their needs the best. All you'll need to interface with the Xede is a standard laptop with usb or serial port. Uploading maps into the Xede take about 15 sec. The Xede can also hold 2 maps and the user can toggle between the two on-the-fly with a simple dash mounted switch.

Cheers,
shiv

Very, very cool.

picus · 09-23-2006, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxpaintmepunkxx

Very, very cool.

+1

Ryan@Motorwerks · 09-23-2006, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

The Xede can also hold 2 maps and the user can toggle between the two on-the-fly with a simple dash mounted switch.

cool, we get our own M power button!

lux.sh · 09-23-2006, 10:43 PM

shiv, how are those stock turbos looking to you experts? I know those are two tiny snails but would they be able to hold more boost pressure? I see you guys are trying to get it going anywhere from 11psi to 7psi, which I assume it is in a good reliable range without compromising performance. I really like the idea on how you guys aren't really going out for all out RWHP monster figures, but improving throttle response with safe amount of boost upgrade.

Can't wait to see the dyno. with a slight more extreme tuning, good bye V8 M3.

RetroGamerJP · 09-23-2006, 11:33 PM

I am currently building an alter in my living room in honor of the Vishnu gods. It also has a calendar on it so I can count the days til they release this bad boy.

Hats off to them for doing this and keeping us constantly informed.

klaxian · 09-24-2006, 12:12 AM

I too have been following these threads religiously. My 335 is in transit now. If a simple, 15 minute upgrade can do what you claim, I'll be all over it. The most important thing for me is to stay within safe limits for the car - which it seems like you're focused on. Is there a web site where we can see what you've done so far? Also, when do you think this will be ready to order? Thanks!

09-23-2006, 06:04 PM	#1
OpenFlash 1809 Rep 17,960 Posts Drives: A Lot Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: SF Bay, CA iTrader: (0) Garage List 2018 Ducati Panigal ... [0.00] 2016 Mazda CX5 [0.00] 2017 Aprilia Tuono ... [0.00] 2019 BMW M2 Competi ... [0.00] 2015 BMW M5 Competi ... [10.00] 2016 Ducati XDiavel S [0.00] 2016 AMG GT S [0.00] 2011 Ferrari 458 It ... [0.00] 2017 Charger Hellcat [0.00] 2015 KTM Super Duke ... [0.00] 2016 KTM RC390 [0.00]	Take 2 from Vishnu: Tuning the 335i Here's were we left off last week: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30027 As stated in that link, the dyno results represented a partial tune. This was because we only had secondary control over boost targets and AFR targets. As of today, we now have full control over the boost control system. So in summary, here's what we got: 1) Full control over ignition timing (at all rpm/loads) 2) Full control over full throttle boost targets 3) Full control of partial throttle boost targets 4) Full control over atmosphere pressure compensations 5) Partial control over AFR targets So, in a nutshell, we still have a little bit of work to do with respect to fuel control. I hope to have this sorted out within the next few days. The factory DME keeps the fuel control system in closed loop operation ALL THE TIME. It does NOT go open loop above a certain load and rpm. Needless to say, it's a bit tricky to get in control of. Fortunately, we recently finished a Honda application that relied on similar fuel control strategies. So we only have maybe 10% of work left before we can grab this DME by the scruff of its neck and make it do anything we want So how is the car to drive now that we completely remapped the boost control system? One word: Awesome The BMW engineers tried to do what they can to make the 335i feel naturally aspirated. This meant that it limited boost at partial throttle. So at 1/2 throttle, you would only get 2-3psi of boost. And only at full throttle would you get a full 8-9psi. Yes, it felt very non-turbo like. But it sucked. It seemed as if they overcompensated and made partial throttle performance worse than a naturally aspirated V8 they were trying to emulate. So we fixed that. Now the car sees 7-8psi at 1/2 throttle and a full 11psi at full throttle. Much more "natural" feeling with much better throttle sensitivity/response. That was the thing that bugged me the most about the stock car. The throttle response felt very molasses-like. All the quick transients that you got out of, say an E46 M3, were dulled over. Yes, the stock car was pretty quick. But no, it didn't feel like it had a true high performance engine. Now it does. And it's a whole lot quicker as well Boost taper. Before, we managed to eliminate the top-end boost taper. But without absolute full control over boost, we had to sacrifice low and midrange boost levels. Before, it would run ~9psi up to 5500prm, then 10psi up to 7000rpm, then back to 9psi by redline. How it holds a solid 11psi from 2000rpm to fuel cut. Of course, this might not be ideal. When we tune it on the dyno, we may have to contour the boost profile a bit. But right now it's nice to know that we have the control that we've always wanted. Transient Boost response at higher engine speeds. In the stock car, getting off and back on the throttle at higher engine speeeds (say above 5000rpm) resulted in a very slight lag. As if it took a few heartbeats before the DME responded to the demand for boost by closing the normally open wastgates (yeah, you read that right... they are normally OPEN unlike every other boost control system I've seen). Fortunately, we fixed that issue by making the wastegates close earlier in anticipation of a boost demand. So, in essence, as soon as you get back into the throttle, the boost pressure is there. Instantly. Bam. No waiting. Well, that's it for now. Once we get full control over fuel, we'll dyno the car and post up the results. But so far, the car is a beast. It lights up the tires with great vehemence at the top of 1st gear and just after the shift into 2nd car. And it pulls hard throughout the entire rev range... right up to fuel cut. FWIW, we've managed to put over 2000 very hard miles on the car so far in the last 10 days. And we started tuning it with just 50 miles on the clock. Everything seems to be rock solid. More work and testing ahead... Cheers, shiv Vishnu Performance Systems
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09-23-2006, 06:11 PM	#2
picus Brigadier General 125 Rep 4,172 Posts Drives: e92 SG 335i Coupe Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Toronto, ON iTrader: (0)	Man, this has me excited. My one complaint was that rather molassed like throttle response. I'm eagerly awaiting more.
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09-23-2006, 06:30 PM	#3
PresaMat Major 35 Rep 1,169 Posts Drives: 67 GT500,69 Boss 429, 335i Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Houston,TX iTrader: (0) Garage List 1967 Shelby Mustang ... [0.00]	Great work shiv!!! It sounds like yall are really going to be able to pull top performance out of this car while keeping it durable. Out of curiousity what are the specs of your car? Auto/Man/options etc. Thanks again for all the great work! I can't wait to see it when its done and dynoed! Mat
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09-23-2006, 06:30 PM	#4
boosted enthusiast 116 Rep 221 Posts Drives: 2018 340i x-drive 8AT Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: IL iTrader: (0)	Great. I wish you guys success and make E92 crowd happy. Also a suggestion. When you ready to post final Dynojet results, please include SAE correction as well . Good luck!
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09-23-2006, 06:34 PM	#5
BiggieJ Second Lieutenant 67 Rep 239 Posts Drives: e92 335 ZSPZPPOPP Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: SoCal iTrader: (0)	great work again cant wait to see the full results! but few questions: -did you see any problems with overheating? ive heard of few instances where the 335 were overheating and with the extra stress on the engine i was wondering if you saw anything out of norm? -and will the "chip" be flashable or will it be a piggy back. and can/will you be able to change it back to stock for times you need to take your car back to the dealership? keep up the good work.
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09-23-2006, 06:51 PM	#6
OpenFlash 1809 Rep 17,960 Posts Drives: A Lot Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: SF Bay, CA iTrader: (0) Garage List 2018 Ducati Panigal ... [0.00] 2016 Mazda CX5 [0.00] 2017 Aprilia Tuono ... [0.00] 2019 BMW M2 Competi ... [0.00] 2015 BMW M5 Competi ... [10.00] 2016 Ducati XDiavel S [0.00] 2016 AMG GT S [0.00] 2011 Ferrari 458 It ... [0.00] 2017 Charger Hellcat [0.00] 2015 KTM Super Duke ... [0.00] 2016 KTM RC390 [0.00]	PresaMat-- Our car is a 6sp manual with sport package. It's also silver with red interior boosted-- No prob. The dynojet we use reads considerably lower than other dynojets. With their SAE correction, we had some runs in the 267-269 range. Plus, I've never found dynojets SAE correction to work well with turbo cars. It tends to tends to overstate power when it is cold. I've always found Standard corrections to be more reasonable when dynojets are concerned. I've used it for over 10 years and it's hard to teach a middle-aged dog new tricks. BiggieJ-- No overheating problems so far. Then again, I haven't done any Autobahn tested. And yes, the Xede is fully removable and unlike reflashes, it will leave no sign (eletronic or otherwise) of any sort of tampering/modifying. And you don't even have to unplug the ECU (which resets it) to do so. We're aiming for installation and removal to take no longer than 15 minutes each. -shiv Last edited by OpenFlash; 09-23-2006 at 07:14 PM..
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09-23-2006, 07:12 PM	#7
boosted enthusiast 116 Rep 221 Posts Drives: 2018 340i x-drive 8AT Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: IL iTrader: (0)	Gotcha shiv and sounds good on install/removal time .
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09-23-2006, 07:26 PM	#8
Kit523 Major General 382 Rep 7,074 Posts Drives: F80 M3/FK8/C63S Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: B.C. Vancouver iTrader: (27)	very good info u got there! wish to hear more from you!
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09-23-2006, 07:30 PM	#9
jmlenz Private 4 Rep 50 Posts Drives: 2006 330i sport Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: San Diego, CA iTrader: (1)	Holy Sh%*! you guys are gonna have 335 guys lining up in droves for these things. If these or future power packages can get this beast in the mid 4's 0-60 youll definitely change many minds about picking up that new V8 M3.
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09-23-2006, 07:30 PM	#10
Got-BMW? Second Lieutenant 20 Rep 279 Posts Drives: 2007 328i Join Date: May 2005 Location: Houston TX iTrader: (0)	So what did it dyno on the same dyno as before? How much boost will the stock Turbo's handle? When are you guys putting race gas in it for kicks (to see what she'll do)? __________________ *2007 E90-328i (Sparkling Graphite w/Black Leather & Alum)* *ZPP // ZSP // ZCW // 205 // 322 // 417 // 507 // 522 // 4AD*
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09-23-2006, 07:43 PM	#11
RichP Major 170 Rep 1,189 Posts Drives: F80 Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: CT iTrader: (4)	Shiv, when I get a 335 next spring when my current lease is up, you have my money for this setup. Your knowledge and expertise is a breath of fresh air in BMW tuning, where normally its a bunch of hacks.
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09-23-2006, 08:58 PM	#13
picus Brigadier General 125 Rep 4,172 Posts Drives: e92 SG 335i Coupe Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Toronto, ON iTrader: (0)	You know, I might be in the minority (I doubt it though), but I'd rather have you work towards an end result that made for a car with better throttle response, better high end, and maybe only 15-20% more overall power, as long as it's nice and reliable on pump gas. It seems like that's the direction you're headed in. I am sure there are guys that want 700rwhp on 100 octane, but that's just not my thing. I'll order the ECU flash that gives me a little more torque, less throttle delay, and less drop off at the redline but is perfectly safe. Just imo, of course.
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09-23-2006, 09:01 PM	#14
carbo Private First Class 8 Rep 103 Posts Drives: 2015 M235i 6m Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SWFla. iTrader: (0)	Forget about the 335..................how about a simple remap of the 325....crap, your gonna make me trade up aren't you.
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09-23-2006, 10:43 PM	#20
lux.sh missing two turbos. 614 Rep 4,859 Posts Drives: fast around corners. Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Curves iTrader: (12) Garage List 2006 BMW E90 330i [7.00]	shiv, how are those stock turbos looking to you experts? I know those are two tiny snails but would they be able to hold more boost pressure? I see you guys are trying to get it going anywhere from 11psi to 7psi, which I assume it is in a good reliable range without compromising performance. I really like the idea on how you guys aren't really going out for all out RWHP monster figures, but improving throttle response with safe amount of boost upgrade. Can't wait to see the dyno. with a slight more extreme tuning, good bye V8 M3. __________________ 06 AW E90 330i ZPP/ZSP/Step/Expired Warranty : Prior Design Front : ACS Rear : ACS Roof : BlackLines : Simota Intake : Carbon Fiber Interior Trim : : MTEC V3 : 24% Charcoal : V1 Hardwired : Solaris Invisibulbs/LED interior :
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09-23-2006, 11:33 PM	#21
RetroGamerJP Lieutenant 58 Rep 401 Posts Drives: 2023 M3 Competition Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Atlanta GA iTrader: (3)	I am currently building an alter in my living room in honor of the Vishnu gods. It also has a calendar on it so I can count the days til they release this bad boy. Hats off to them for doing this and keeping us constantly informed.
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09-24-2006, 12:12 AM	#22
klaxian Private 0 Rep 54 Posts Drives: 07 BMW 335i cp, 04 Honda S2000 Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Upstate NY iTrader: (0)	I too have been following these threads religiously. My 335 is in transit now. If a simple, 15 minute upgrade can do what you claim, I'll be all over it. The most important thing for me is to stay within safe limits for the car - which it seems like you're focused on. Is there a web site where we can see what you've done so far? Also, when do you think this will be ready to order? Thanks!
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