[klipseracer]

I was reading some articles about the best placement for the nozzles. If I'm correct, Shiv's implementation on the chargepipe elbow is nearly a 'post intercooler' placement. And the STETT charge pipe locates them much closer to the intake manifold which would be a 'pre-throttle body' placement. Correct me if I'm wrong here. But I also read about staggered injection which is a combination of pre-compressor placement and pre-throttle body placement.

I am not sure if anyone has tried this before, but the benefits of turbo efficiency always sparks my interest. Here is a snippet from what I was reading:

Staggered Injection

Staggered injection involves combining pre-compressor injection with an additional secondary nozzle positioned further down the turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger, such as pre-throttle body/carburetor injection. By combining pre-compressor injection with pre-throttle body injection, were able to improve the efficiency of the compressor while dramatically reducing air charge temperatures at the compressor and again at the intake for a combined synergistic effect. Furthermore, the secondary nozzle provides the necessary cylinder cooling, detonation control, and reduced EGT's which the pre-turbocharger nozzles does not.

Best of all, installation remains essentially the same and costs are only marginally more as the addition of a secondary nozzle and tee fitting are all that is required. We highly recommend the staggered injection for all turbocharged applications and high boost centrifugal applications.

For complete details on Pre-compressor injection and Pre-Throttle Body/Carburetor injection these are listed above individually.

By placing the water methanol injection nozzle or nozzles pre-turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger and injecting a fine precise amount of water methanol into the air inlet of the compressor can have a dramatic positive effect on compressor efficiency (particularly with turbocharger systems and high boost centrifugal applications) while substantially lowering discharge temperatures at the source of compression. On 8-25 psi applications, users can expect to see a 70-160+ degree drop in compressor discharge temperatures. While reductions of 160-240+degree's can be had on 25-60+ psi high boost applications such as diesels.

How is this possible?

When water methanol is first injected, we're able to begin slightly cooling the incoming air entering the compressor. This air is already relatively cool in relation to the ambient temperature of the day as it has yet to be compressed and heated. Depending on the temperature of the day and how the air inlet is plumped and where the air is being drawn in from, the incoming air entering into the inlet of the compressor commonly ranges between 5-20 degree's above ambient. Only minor cooling of the air charge occurs at this stage before it enters into the compressor. More importantly, we are about to dramatically cool the air that is being compressed and heated within the turbocharger.

By cooling the air as it's being compressed within the turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger, the compressed air is now substantially cooler, more dense, taking less space and moves more efficiently through the compressor allowing us to pack and process more air through the turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger. This leads us to our second benefit. Improved compressor efficiency.

All of this results in improved compressor efficiency. Because of this improved efficiency the compressor does not have to work as hard to produce the same amount of boost as without the water methanol injection. In turn it raises the maximum mass air flow of the compressor. Thereby, making a smaller turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger now perform like a larger turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger with the addition of the water methanol injection.

I'd like some advice here on why we haven't done this already or made this popular. If people here are already doing this, then point me in the right direction

[SnowTech.4]

Its very interesting, but keep in mind the kinds of RPMs these turbos are hitting to make 15+ psig.

You will hear a million opinions on the internet regarding pre-turbo injection, but I have yet to see the data that explains exactly what size water droplet of what density at what RPM on what size compressor wheel will not hurt the leading edge of a compressor wheelblade.

The other factor to consider is the flow rate needed pre-compressor to get the effect discussed above. If this rate is too high, then you run the risk of getting accumulation in the intercooler. You also have the problem of the liquid taking heat from the pressurization process in the compression housing, then conducting it to the intercooler when it accumulates.

Thats not at all to say that injection pre-compressor will cause damage. People have done it without hurting anything. But with water/methanol injection post-IC being so effective and not carrying the risks, its the better route to take. Injection post IC has been demonstrated to drop temperatures below ambient already. The additional benefits from pre-compressor injection at that point are not worth the risk.

[GreenPlease]

^ The quoted source seems to think it's not all about AITs but also the effective amount of air moved by the compressor. Very interesting concept. IMO, you'd be better off straight Meth pre-compressor if this route is taken at all. It is more likely to evaporate therefore reducing the risk of droplets hitting the compressor blade.

[klipseracer]

Originally Posted by GreenPlease

^ The quoted source seems to think it's not all about AITs but also the effective amount of air moved by the compressor. Very interesting concept. IMO, you'd be better off straight Meth pre-compressor if this route is taken at all. It is more likely to evaporate therefore reducing the risk of droplets hitting the compressor blade.

The damage is really only a risk with water injection from what I've read. Methanol apparently atomizes near instantly and the alcohol properties causes it to evaporate before much if any gets to the cylinders.

[klipseracer]

Nobody has any information here? And I'm referring to Pre-compressor injection with methonal mixtures. Not pure water droplets as it was mentioned this can lead to compressor wheel damage.

[cn555ic]

Originally Posted by SnowTech.4

Its very interesting, but keep in mind the kinds of RPMs these turbos are hitting to make 15+ psig.

You will hear a million opinions on the internet regarding pre-turbo injection, but I have yet to see the data that explains exactly what size water droplet of what density at what RPM on what size compressor wheel will not hurt the leading edge of a compressor wheelblade.

The other factor to consider is the flow rate needed pre-compressor to get the effect discussed above. If this rate is too high, then you run the risk of getting accumulation in the intercooler. You also have the problem of the liquid taking heat from the pressurization process in the compression housing, then conducting it to the intercooler when it accumulates.

Thats not at all to say that injection pre-compressor will cause damage. People have done it without hurting anything. But with water/methanol injection post-IC being so effective and not carrying the risks, its the better route to take. Injection post IC has been demonstrated to drop temperatures below ambient already. The additional benefits from pre-compressor injection at that point are not worth the risk.

I would listen to Derek since he knows more about the system of spraying meth than most of us on this forum...I trust what he is saying..

[klipseracer]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

I would listen to Derek since he knows more about the system of spraying meth than most of us on this forum...I trust what he is saying..

I'm curious how much 'accumulation' would really even warrant any kind of significant problems with a mostly methanol mixture. Water? sure. Methanol? Not nearly as likely in my opinion. If condensation were an issue, then we would have water condensing and running into our intake manifold. I think there are added compressor efficiency gains to be had.

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by klipseracer

I'm curious how much 'accumulation' would really even warrant any kind of significant problems with a mostly methanol mixture. Water? sure. Methanol? Not nearly as likely in my opinion. If condensation were an issue, then we would have water condensing and running into our intake manifold. I think there are added compressor efficiency gains to be had.

Aren't there a lot of really hot parts in this location where Meth could start to burn ? Nobody says that everyone with a Meth application uses a 50:50 mixture. If so, better no added compressor efficiency gains ...

[GreenPlease]

I'm going to try to get this thread going again because I think it is interesting and possibly very useful.

@e.n335:
The auto-ignition temperature of methanol is 867 degrees f at one atmosphere (14.696 psi). While there are many "hot" components near the compressor inlet, it is unlikely that a well designed system would ever see anything near auto ignition temperatures. Maybe if somebody ran the Meth line right on a downpipe they'd have issues but that would be just stupid. Methanol safety info here: http://cameochemicals.noaa.gov/chemical/3874

IMO, a good idea for a system would to have two tanks and two line sets, one for Meth and one for water, and run meth pre-compressor and water pre-throttle body. This way a 50:50 meth/water charge could be utilized without risking damage to the compressor. If I had more time on my hands I'd be less of an armchair engineer and actually go out and try to make a system work.

[cn555ic]

Originally Posted by GreenPlease

I'm going to try to get this thread going again because I think it is interesting and possibly very useful.

@e.n335:
The auto-ignition temperature of methanol is 867 degrees f at one atmosphere (14.696 psi). While there are many "hot" components near the compressor inlet, it is unlikely that a well designed system would ever see anything near auto ignition temperatures. Maybe if somebody ran the Meth line right on a downpipe they'd have issues but that would be just stupid. Methanol safety info here: http://cameochemicals.noaa.gov/chemical/3874

IMO, a good idea for a system would to have two tanks and two line sets, one for Meth and one for water, and run meth pre-compressor and water pre-throttle body. This way a 50:50 meth/water charge could be utilized without risking damage to the compressor. If I had more time on my hands I'd be less of an armchair engineer and actually go out and try to make a system work.

If you run the lines underneath the drivers side where the OEM fuel lines are routed, there is ZERO possbilities of it every catching on fire....WIth that said having two separate lines to run water and meth is MOOT....There are alot of people running the 49/51 mixture with no problems in the location closest to the throttle body...

[GreenPlease]

@cn555ic

I'm well aware of traditional meth setups. What I was referring to was a setup the engine (and your pocketbook) would see as 50:50 but your compressor would see 100% meth therefore eliminating the possibility of damage to the compressor blades.

[klipseracer]

Would the methanol 'evaporate' and have no effect on octane rating if it took so long to get to the cylinder?

[midlife]

Would guess that being so far downstream of the throttle body, even 100% meth sprayed pre turbo would have little to no octane benifit.
At the very least it would have dramatically reduced octane benifit.

[klipseracer]

Originally Posted by midlife

Would guess that being so far downstream of the throttle body, even 100% meth sprayed pre turbo would have little to no octane benifit.
At the very least it would have dramatically reduced octane benifit.

Right, but the point of staggered injection is to condense the air and cool it before its compressed by the compressor prior to intercooling and prior to the main methanol injection point pre TB. I really wish all those people experimenting with their meth setups (Former) would try this out at least once....

[M3 Eater]

For those of you with meth bungs just before manifold, Im thinking that one injections site there, maybe a larger nozzle 7-10 and then a small one at the elbow... 1-5. Come in between 8-12 should max timing out for most. Closer to manifold for octane boost, further for cooling... maybe try it the other way too. At least you would keep two nozzles from spraying and the patterns hitting each other in the charge pipe.

[Sniz]

i'm actually toying with the idea of 2 injection nozzles on my car.........

one large one right before the throttle body pointing squarely at the throttle plate....primary reason is for extra fueling

2nd smaller nozzle just after the intercooler to aid in temp reduction. My BOV was just moved to just after the intercooler, so i'd put the 2nd smaller nozzle just after the BOV to keep any from being sent to atmosphere.

what do you think? Would that make any difference w the 2nd nozzle?

[MM Performance]

I think staggered injection is the way to go, when I was at Texas A&M studying mechanical engineering I was on the engine team that ran staggered E85 injection for a Opcon autorotor (positive displacement) on a motorcylce engine for a SAE Formula race car senior design project succesfully, the compressor would get so cold it would gather condensation. Btw we whooped everyone at the Road and Track competion in Detriot and the competition in California 2002 (worldwide event 80+ Universities)

I will research this topic and contact a few professor at the GE Turbo Machinery Lab on campus (world class test facility) to see if they have done the testing that snowtech.4 refered to above.

[GreenPlease]

^Keep us up to date, SlickSilver, this is of extreme interest to me (and I'm sure others on here)

[klipseracer]

Originally Posted by SlickSilver

I think staggered injection is the way to go, when I was at Texas A&M studying mechanical engineering I was on the engine team that ran staggered E85 injection for a Opcon autorotor (positive displacement) on a motorcylce engine for a SAE Formula race car senior design project succesfully, the compressor would get so cold it would gather condensation. Btw we whooped everyone at the Road and Track competion in Detriot and the competition in California 2002 (worldwide event 80+ Universities)

I will research this topic and contact a few professor at the GE Turbo Machinery Lab on campus (world class test facility) to see if they have done the testing that snowtech.4 refered to above.

Glad to see my post revived... I have thought about this on numerous occasions and am willing to bet if done properly there would be virtually no discernible damage to the compressor blades and large gains in efficiency.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

I just made a thread bout this on the other site... didnt see this one here.

[Belarus]

[dzenno]

Interesting..