[NFS]

Thought I would start a new thread for this to avoid confusion.

Having lived with my LCI 335i msport for a while now I'm convinced that the suspension / damping is softer than it was on my 2006 car.

At lower speeds this is not a problem and in fairness the ride is much improved. Unfortunately, at motorway speeds it's not great.

If I turn the wheel quickly to one side, then straighten up the steering input is fairly instantaneous. Unfortunately, while making the movement I get pronounced bodyroll as intertia tries to keep the body moving forward. Worse still after a momentary delay, the body moves again as it settles back on the suspension. This delay feels like a long time (a second or so) and you get the feeling that a swerve to avoid an obstruction could end badly.

There is also a vagueness to the steering at speed that was not there on the older car. Almost as if it is tramlining slightly more.

My 2006 did not do this so I'm wondering:

1. What have BMW done to cause this?

2. What can I do to get the handling back to the level of my earlier car?

[creepy coupe]

You could ask you friendly dealer for coil spring part numbers for both cars, they might have changed them between models as you suspect.

I've looked on real oem, but there are too many types to list, by the look of it.

[marcel b]

The suspension has changed, saw also the difference between a 2007 and a late 2008 E92.

Here you can find details:
E90 used different versions of Sachs dampers till June 2008, then moved to Bilstein
http://de.bmwfans.info/parts/catalog...wheel_bearing/

[TMP]

I think Doughboy had some handling issues when he changed to a LCI E91? He replace some parts - maybe worthing searching for the thread he started a while back....

Edit - that doesnt sound good, when the LCI marketing stated they had widened the rear track to imrove handling . Did you test drive the LCI out of interest?

[zltm089]

I don't understand?...is BMW not suppose to "inform" people if they make changes to a particular model? i.e like the new e92 facelift coming out...(all the marketing around it etc...)

same thing should happen if they change the suspension system!...at least write it down on the website!!!...or tell customers!...

[marcel b]

interesting.... with the E92 the later suspension is better then the earlier one. The earlier one is unsettled on the back axle at high speeds.

[M3-FAST]

....should have got an M3

Joking aside, I would be interested to see what your findings are and what could casue this? As others have said, the suspension was supposed to be better with the wider track etc.

Is it defo suspension related and not different tyres with softer walls?

BMW has always had quite a bit of stick in mag write ups about the harsh ride of the M-sport models (similar to Audi S-line A3/4's) so maybe they have softened things a little?

[NFS]

Originally Posted by TMP

I think Doughboy had some handling issues when he changed to a LCI E91? He replace some parts - maybe worthing searching for the thread he started a while back....

Edit - that doesnt sound good, when the LCI marketing stated they had widened the rear track to imrove handling . Did you test drive the LCI out of interest?

I originally posted in Doughboys thread and he made some helpful observations. I started a new thread though as his was mainly about the e91

I didn't bother testing the LCI to be honest as I had run the 330i for 3 years and it seemed to me that I was basically getting the same car again.

The new one is on Michelin RFTs and the ride quality is as good as the 330i on non-runflats. The handling is spot on at lower speeds I'm just disconcerted by this 'wobble' at motorway speeds. On Bridgestone RFT's the old car was rock solid. I did find that it leaned over a little when really pressing on with softer non rft tyres. I may try upping the pressures on my car tomorrow to see if that makes any difference, but it feels to me that this is about springs or damping.

In honesty, I think you could drive through this. I doubt it would affect the handling if you were really 'on it', but it doesn't feel quite as 'right' as the old one.

Originally Posted by zltm089

I don't understand?...is BMW not suppose to "inform" people if they make changes to a particular model? i.e like the new e92 facelift coming out...(all the marketing around it etc...)

same thing should happen if they change the suspension system!...at least write it down on the website!!!...or tell customers!...

They will only tell us the stuff they want us to hear. They didn't tell us that they had saved money by omitting nets from the seat backs, power points from the back of the armrest and making the sun visors from recycled plastic bags.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by marcel b

interesting.... with the E92 the later suspension is better then the earlier one. The earlier one is unsettled on the back axle at high speeds.

In some ways the suspension is 'better' the ride quality is massively improved. The old car used to bounce about if you accelerated hard on poor surfaces and DSC+ used to go crazy making it hard to get the power down.

On the new one, I hardly see the DSC+ light at all. It seems to have been pulled right back and I can now chirp the wheels when pulling away. In fact on a full bore start I can feel the wheels scrabbling throughout first gear and then again in second gear without any DSC intervention at all.

[M3-FAST]

When are gonna see a picture of this new car Simon!!!

[HighlandPete]

Very interesting topic for discussion.

Personally I'm pleased BMW have seen the light and at last are giving us back some decent driving dynamics and compliance. May be I'm prejudiced as I'm a 5-series man at heart, E39 on M-tech suspension and 17" staggered wheels and the car works on all road surfaces.

Are we seeking track performance and wanting it on a road car, which has to drive on more than billiard table smooth hardtop? I'm not sure most BMW customers are seeing it that way, comfort is required as well.

I tried both the early model E90/1 and E60/1 series M-sport cars and found them so poor in the dynamics, once off the smooth surfaces, that I just would not be able to drive one on my local roads. The first decent driving E61 was the LCI model 2007, I ran a 535d M-sport touring for a week and that was back to the real BMW drive. Harshness gone, now able to feel the road again, not isolated from it with a rock like interface of the early model.

The 3-sereis E91 M-sport (2008 pre LCI) was softened down, as we know, and that was just getting to be a decent drive, still on the knobbly side but getting there.

I blame run-flats for most of the nonsense we have in the chassis dynamics, the chassis/suspension engineers have had to compromise in so many areas, to try and accommodate a flawed product.

Get rid of the offending tyres and set a car up to run as it should, and we start getting back to the BMW feel of old.

I know long term BMW drivers who still find some of the latest M-sport offerings are lacking, still need sorting to get a more compliant and predictable drive. I personally don't get this 'hard edged' need in a BMW, for road use. Precision is not dependent on a rock hard approach, fluidity and predictability can be achieved with a degree of softness in the vehicle which allows 3-way communication between driver, car and road.

HighlandPete

[E92westy]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

.... fluidity and predictability can be achieved with a degree of softness in the vehicle which allows 3-way communication between driver, car and road.

HighlandPete

+1 million. Possibly the most sensible thing i've read on the interweb!!

[NFS]

Originally Posted by M3-FAST

When are gonna see a picture of this new car Simon!!!

Soon

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Personally I'm pleased BMW have seen the light and at last are giving us back some decent driving dynamics and compliance. May be I'm prejudiced as I'm a 5-series man at heart, E39 on M-tech suspension and 17" staggered wheels and the car works on all road surfaces.

I thought the handling on my last e90 was spot on. It was pretty rock solid, like the e46 coupes I had before it.

If anything I think the suspension on the e46 coupe was even firmer. No body roll at all ... ever.

Never drove an e39 5 series, but I was quite impressed with my e60. It was suprisingly nimble for such a big car, but you could never forget it's bulk and it just wasn't as 'pointy' as the 3-ers.

I do agree with you regarding ride compliance though. I test drive an Elise a couple of years ago and was amazed at the suspension set up. I'm sure that the lack of inertia helps, but it was remarkably smooth over bumps, but totally composed in the bends.

On the LCI I'm pleased with the ride improvements and the low speed handling is every bit as good. It's not compliance that is the problem, the issue is matching the timing of any weight shifting to steering inputs. You don't want the cars weight to be moving about a second AFTER you commit to a bend.

Do dampers take a while to bed in?

[HighlandPete]

I haven't driven a LCI 3-series, so can't make any judgement on what has changed. Are the cars still skittish, as if it is a tyre grip issue, or is this a feeling of soft bushing and/or slow damper response? Or a bit of both?

I started with an SE 330d touring on 17" wheels to try and get a better compromise in dynamics, than an M-sport car, which didn't work IMO, in early models. After finding major issues with the run-flats, I changed tyres to Goodyear F1 GS-3D, I was on the way to a better drive, the damping was not right, so changed to Koni FSD dampers. This gave the car composure, better comfort levels over the broken stuff and firmed up the balance of the car in cornering and over long undulations and cross bumps and ridges. The Konis work better with the run-flats as well.

I've since put Falken 452 tyres on the car and it is even better. That little extra softening of the tyre, compared to the Goodyear, has brought it all together into a car that feels very much like a 5-series to drive for comfort. Driving is so much more fluid, firmly planted to the road and totally predictable, therefore much faster cornering potential without drama. I now get much more feedback from the road, something the run-flat shod car could only give in very hot conditions. It is relaxed, much more a "man and machine in harmony" experience. All by softening down the responses, but sharpening up the primary ride damping.

HighlandPete

[Dave_3]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I personally don't get this 'hard edged' need in a BMW, for road use. Precision is not dependent on a rock hard approach, fluidity and predictability can be achieved with a degree of softness in the vehicle which allows 3-way communication between driver, car and road.

Agree with you there - unfortunately a lot of youngsters think rock hard ride = sporty and it's a price you pay. As you say, NFS, when you have driven a truely good handling car you know that need not be the case.

I also use Scottish B-roads that are far from billiard smooth, and down those types of twisting, 3d undulating, camber switching roads a suspension that works well is far, far more important than how low it looks or whether the wheels fill the arches.

I can place my Escort's tyres within a *** (cigarette) paper on a sweeping roughly tarmaced road. I wouldn't like to try that in my BMW. First big bump, or camber change ....

I also still get the feel that those rear hydraulic chassis mounts have a bit of "wind-up" when you lean on them, taking up the slop/float as you load them up - it may be that you are sensing ?

D.

[doughboy]

NFS

I felt the same and I looked long and hard into this last March and you will find a comprehensive change of suspension components between your 06 car (same as my 06 330i E90) and your new car.

Different dampers
Different springs
Different bump stops

Note - even the same model has 3 or 4 spring options depending on the weight / location of optional extras fitted from new, thus even comparing OE springs on the same models is pretty hopeless unles they are totally identical cars.

Briefly, in 06 all E9x m sport models had 1 damper combo for ALL models - i.e. pretty stiff, and people moaned it was too hard (and it was too firm on poor surfaces, compounded by RFTs)

During early 08 they started to fit model specific dampers between m sport models, and of course the springs would have been altered to match. In short, they have softened up the damping to, I imagine, improve the ride, but of course the softer damping then lacks the body control.

The only sure fix is a suspension kit, as higland pete has said, its the quality of damping thats important.

Since fitting the ARB's and removing sloppy hydraulic bushes for rubber M3 items and ditching the runflats it is much better all round and feels a 'tighter' car with much reduced 'dead' feel at the centre of the steering but still retains its factory compliance over poor surfaces. In fact it now feels like a proper BMW as I remember them from 10 yrs ago or so. I will not be going to 19" as 18" is plenty IMO.

The 'double bounce' effect almost vanished along with the RFTs, but then it totally vanished with the M3 bushes, which suggests that large deflections in subframe / wheel positions over sharp bumps were partly to blame for this.

My next move will be dampers / springs - I've just to to get on with the research, then we should be sorted.

You could try the BMW performance kit, its pretty cheap IMO.

[doughboy]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I know long term BMW drivers who still find some of the latest M-sport offerings are lacking, still need sorting to get a more compliant and predictable drive. I personally don't get this 'hard edged' need in a BMW, for road use. Precision is not dependent on a rock hard approach, fluidity and predictability can be achieved with a degree of softness in the vehicle which allows 3-way communication between driver, car and road.

HighlandPete

Exactly, I don't think anyone is suggesting a slammed rock hard approach, we need something that is compliant, but better able to control the massive vehicle weights we are now forced to have.

With fuel and driver and a bit of lugagge you're looking at over 1800kg for most of us - in a mid sized saloon car.

The hyrdraulic bushes are a must to ditch IMO along with the runflats, but the cost is quite considerable for such a minor mod, circa £600 in parts alone and could easily be a grand fitted.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by doughboy

Briefly, in 06 all E9x m sport models had 1 damper combo for ALL models - i.e. pretty stiff, and people moaned it was too hard (and it was too firm on poor surfaces, compounded by RFTs)

During early 08 they started to fit model specific dampers between m sport models, and of course the springs would have been altered to match. In short, they have softened up the damping to, I imagine, improve the ride, but of course the softer damping then lacks the body control.

From your comments it is quite clear you opt for one dominant characteristic from your chassis, instant steering response... am I correct? Problem as I see it, the engineers must compromise, even on steering response, if the 3-series car chassis is to work on all road surfaces.

The original dampers were (IMO) far too harsh in their settings, at some frequencies seemed totally unable to cope, almost to the point of being unsafe on country roads. Did not work across a wide enough range of road conditions, or in harmony with the run-flat tyres. The revised damping made a great improvement to the abilities of the chassis, across a wider range of use.

For me fitting run-flats to a car was one step too far. Added a set of parameters which conflict with what suspension engineer’s desire. Setting up a road car chassis is a set of compromises anyway, particularly as tyres may be viewed as the number-one ride control component. BMW engineers have had to make so many compromises, NVH is harder to control with run-flats.

BMW’s first attempt at the E9* M-sport was too harsh for many users, the revised settings have addressed the issues to some degree, but when there is a fly in the ointment, (run-flats) I can’t see BMW getting it totally acceptable until electronic controls like EDC and Adaptive Drive are used to make the cars more refined. Then that won’t be the complete answer, we know what electric power steering feedback is like don’t we.

HighlandPete

[Dave_3]

I'm just wondering if BMW have been developing the upcoming LCI E92 with the knowledge it probably will be running on the 3rd generation RFTs. That would suggest further suspension adjustments. From what I have read the new generation RFTs are getting much closer to normal tyres for ride and compliancy, so I would imagine the suspension engineers won't be ham-strung so much as previoulsy when tweaking the suspension. Hopefully half-way from present and the M3.

I haven't seen anything about it in the information so far on the LCI E92. The spangly new LED lights get all the attention.

I'll give it a test drive.

D.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by NFS

Thought I would start a new thread for this to avoid confusion.

Having lived with my LCI 335i msport for a while now I'm convinced that the suspension / damping is softer than it was on my 2006 car.

At lower speeds this is not a problem and in fairness the ride is much improved. Unfortunately, at motorway speeds it's not great.

If I turn the wheel quickly to one side, then straighten up the steering input is fairly instantaneous. Unfortunately, while making the movement I get pronounced bodyroll as intertia tries to keep the body moving forward. Worse still after a momentary delay, the body moves again as it settles back on the suspension. This delay feels like a long time (a second or so) and you get the feeling that a swerve to avoid an obstruction could end badly.

There is also a vagueness to the steering at speed that was not there on the older car. Almost as if it is tramlining slightly more.

My 2006 did not do this so I'm wondering:

1. What have BMW done to cause this?

2. What can I do to get the handling back to the level of my earlier car?

Which tyre sizes are you running and at what pressures?

I've noticed that my LCI 330d is very sensitive to tyre pressures. 2 lb less than optimum and the car loses precision and taughtness. For example if you set your pressures correctly with warm tyres, it will not work as well as the same pressure set cold. Also the pressure guages at many service stations are wildly inaccurate. Get yourself a good quality digital guage and foot pump and set your pressures cold.

Also, you may be noticing that your summer tyres don't grip so well when temperatures approach zero. I notice that you absolutely can't lean on summer tyres as hard on cold days, even after several miles. Probably far more difficult to get some heat into the tyres on cold days. This winter has been a lot colder than previous years.

If your tyres are slightly soft and/or aren't gripping as well, they won't 'load' the suspension in the same way and the car will feel slightly 'spongy' and imprecise.

[doughboy]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

From your comments it is quite clear you opt for one dominant characteristic from your chassis, instant steering response... am I correct? Problem as I see it, the engineers must compromise, even on steering response, if the 3-series car chassis is to work on all road surfaces.

I'm glad we're all talking about this again......

I don't really expect instant response from any car suitable for general road use, especially my 1800kg family / business workhorse.

What I do prefer though is reduced slop and play in the associated suspension linkages and bushings to just make the car feel like its built
properly.

This allows the steering to steer instead of nothing really happenig execept the geometry changing massively as you start to turn and all the hydraulic bushes squish under the loadings and the car eventually follows suit.

The M3 bushes are all road approved items, simply made for use with non rfts and as such they don't compromise ride quality one bit nor transmit extra noise when used with non RFTs, if I was fitting for example, powerflex poly bushings then of course it would be a different story.

Passengers will not notice as the effect is only apparent to the driver.

I also like slightly less body roll than the tourer has as standard. Please note the tourer has thinner rear ARBS than the E90/92, so it with its increased weight and heigher C of G they both need upgrading more than than the other models, and thus benefits from it to a higher degree with less loss of usability.

As yet I haven't decided on which way to go with damper / spring mods because I don't want to ruin the pretty good ride / handling compromise I've got now.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by doughboy

What I do prefer though is reduced slop and play in the associated suspension linkages and bushings to just make the car feel like its built properly.

This allows the steering to steer instead of nothing really happenig execept the geometry changing massively as you start to turn and all the hydraulic bushes squish under the loadings and the car eventually follows suit

I paid special attention to this issue on my drive to work today.

The front end of the car always reacts smoothly and quickly.

The body roll is at the rear of the car. The wheels follow the front of the car, but the body trys to pivot momentarily then settles back on the axle.

This is not about ride. It's a looseness between the body and the rear wheels when you turn in at high speed. On the 330i there was no slop, everything felt taught and controlled.

I don't feel this can be linked to the RFT's. Does this sound like bushes? Dampers? Something else?