NST crank pulley

dzenno · 02-22-2010, 03:59 PM

As some of you may know I've ordered the NST crank pulley yesterday and I'm waiting for it to arrive and be installed. A few members have posted concerns around using this pulley due to it not being a harmonic balancer. Digging around I discovered that our N54 engine is internally balanced and doesn't "require" (note the quotes around 'require') an external harmonic balancer (i.e. a crank pulley with a harmonic damper inside of it). What's even more interesting is that if you CUT RIGHT THROUGH the OEM crank pulley you'll notice that there is no rubber part to it which is what the harmonic damping is accomplished with. Keep in mind, harmonics and balancing when it comes to the engine is different.

Key point, OEM crank pulley is NOT a harmonic balancer and there is no "requirement" to replace it with one that is. Can you or should you do this is entirely up to you but again, NOT required.

Another thing to note is that the OEM pulley, being heavier, DOES reduce a very small amount of vibration and noise due to it just being heavier, NOT because its got a harmonic balancer. BUT, the noise/vibration are very small and insufficient to cause any engine damage, WHEN USING THE NST PULLEY!

Here's a URL on review for NST pulleys:

http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5661 3:29

The guys at NonStopTuning have offered to refund my purchase if I had any concerns whatsoever, but I don't think I'll be doing that.

If you will comment on this thread please keep it on topic and centered around the N54 engine and NST pulleys. Please don't pollute the thread with freak accidents due to bad pulley installations or underdriven/overdriven pulleys being used as this is neither an under/overdriven pulley.

hun77777 · 02-22-2010, 05:05 PM

well, you want it to be N54 engine focus and giving us reference on all these other forum website is kinda self-conflicting each other...
anyways, i post my comment on your previous thread and i don't really see the point of this thread other than redundancy...

anyways, here's what i found as far as pulley issue goes...

Quote:

this is what i was referring to. i hope that i am wrong because i'd love to try one of this pulleys but there are too much debates going on to take on with this project at this moment for me... perhaps someday...

on this website it says vibration damper for N54 engine...
http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E9...ration_damper/

where as for S54 engine (E46 M3), there's vibration damper and pulleys mentioned seperately which leads me to think that on N54 engine the pulley is vibration damper
http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E4...ration_damper/

so you provide me more information about the quote below because i didn't see picture or thread about NST actually cut OEM pulley in half and compared as you mentioned below. where do i go find that information?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dzenno

NST have taken the OEM pulley, cut right through it and found that it WASN'T a harmonic damper there...to each their own obviously..will report back on this mod once I have it installed..

dzenno · 02-22-2010, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hun77777

well, you want it to be N54 engine focus and giving us reference on all these other forum website is kinda self-conflicting each other...
anyways, i post my comment on your previous thread and i don't really see the point of this thread other than redundancy...

anyways, here's what i found as far as pulley issue goes...

so you provide me more information about the quote below because i didn't see picture or thread about NST actually cut OEM pulley in half and compared as you mentioned below. where do i go find that information?

thanks for pointing out the links were to non n54 info, removed them...

As for NST cutting through the OEM pulley, you can find their post on n54tech and/or on here mentioning that. There was no photo so I'm taking their word for it being a reputable tuner.

EDIT: As you brought up our OEM pulley acts as a vibration damper and that is true SO again OEM not a harmonic balancer..vibration damper yes, harmonic balancer no, NST one is also a vibration damper but less than OEM due to it's weight only..so yes, you'll get more vibration with nst BUT this doesn't cause issues on our cars due to all of the above..

dzenno · 02-22-2010, 05:52 PM

Bottom line I think is that n54 is internally balanced and doesn't have an external harmonic balancer element inside the crank pulley so a perf upgrade such as NST one should be causing no concern whatsoever..

dzenno · 02-22-2010, 06:00 PM

Found this:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmo...edirected=true

see what they say on internally balanced engines and pulley upgrades when there is no external harmonic balancer present inside the OEM crank pulley such as in the N54 case.

Mr. 5 · 02-22-2010, 06:16 PM

I'm sorry if I started the bad discussion on the other thread but i thought i would voice my concern.

This is what I posted in the past:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=39

Remember that there is a big difference between balanced and dampened.

rooster3.0 · 02-22-2010, 06:17 PM

I'd like to see some 60-130 runs before and after install. Also, if NST did cut open a stock pulley, I don't see why they wouldn't take pictures and post it. It would only boost sales and increase buyer confidence in their R&D.

vasillalov · 02-22-2010, 06:19 PM

New BMW N54 engine costs about $24,000 new.

Pulley gives you AT MOST 5-10 hp.

This has to be one of the most expensive learning experiences you can have in case you mess up your engine. Besides, people who are looking to add this mod, already have other power adders. More power -> more stress on the crank. The more you mod, the more odds are stacking against you for failure.

Call me a backwards person if you want, but I think that introducing more vibration on an engine that is already making significantly more power than stock is not a smart thing...

Also, NST ran the engine with their pulley for how long? 1000 miles? ...and they declared it safe?... I want to see proof after 50K miles by comparing the wear/clearances on crank bearings of engines with and without their pulley.

I my mind, I'd rather err on the safe side and not bother with pulleys!

Mr. 5 · 02-22-2010, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dzenno

thanks for pointing out the links were to non n54 info, removed them...

As for NST cutting through the OEM pulley, you can find their post on n54tech and/or on here mentioning that. There was no photo so I'm taking their word for it being a reputable tuner.

This is a very dangerous statement. I would never trust anyone by what they say. I need proof and I'm talking about a torsional vibration analysis done throughout the complete revving of the engine done with the OEM damper and the aftermarket damper. Once I see that there are no changes then I might think about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dzenno

EDIT: As you brought up our OEM pulley acts as a vibration damper and that is true SO again OEM not a harmonic balancer..vibration damper yes, harmonic balancer no, NST one is also a vibration damper but less than OEM due to it's weight only..so yes, you'll get more vibration with nst BUT this doesn't cause issues on our cars due to all of the above..

A vibration damper is not a solid pulley. A vibration damper is a 2 piece pulley with a piece of rubber in between the 2 pulleys to absorb the harmonics.
There is absolutely nothing in the NST pulley to absorb anything.

About 6 months ago i learned the difference.

This is a harmonic damper:

This is a pulley that is not a harmonic damper:

dzenno · 02-22-2010, 06:43 PM

You seem to be saying that the n54 crank pulley has a 2nd piece to it for harmonic balancing. Prove it!

To the other member and the comment about the price of the engine and power added with this mod, why do anything then, just keep your car stock ..

Please stay on topic. I'm looking for technical info here not smart ass life lesson type comments....

hun77777 · 02-22-2010, 06:52 PM

as mr.5 said, i don't take seller's word just because of their reputation. once you break your engine, it's your responsibility, not anyone else. so i'm totally on that note with mr.5. (just for the kick and giggle, i was at BMW dealer because one of my friend was looking for 335i about a year ago, CA was basically lying through a lot of things, especially when i brought up HPFP issues and such; bottom line is lots of SELLERS will do or say anything to make that sale.)

one very easy way to end this discussion would be have nst post up the cut up pictures of OEM and NST pulley side by side which they claimed to have it done anyways so it shouldn't be a much of an issue for them... if little cut-up picture indeed 100% match, then i'm sure more people will be interested in this product...

dzenno · 02-22-2010, 06:55 PM

Oh by the way peak power added is around 10whp on avg BUT it's almost throughout the entire power band...key is almost 25 whp up top (above 6000 rpm)

take a look at the dynos already posted..

Mr. 5 · 02-22-2010, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dzenno

You seem to be saying that the n54 crank pulley has a 2nd piece to it for harmonic balancing. Prove it!

It sounds like you've already made up your mind so have fun with your new purchase.
It's not my job to prove that it's not a damper. It's the job of whoever is selling the product. I just don't understand any company that is selling a product to say, "We cut it in half and there's no rubber...take our word for it"

Mr. 5 · 02-22-2010, 07:09 PM

Did you see the link that I posted?
Look in the picture of the damper.Do you see the piece of rubber on the damper?
I'll copy and paste.

I think that below is enough proof.
Look what BMW calls the pulley. It is not a pulley. It is a "vibration damper"

I talked to multiple engineers about this issue and there is a big difference between balanced and dampened.
We DO have a damper. It is supposed to absorb torsional vibrations instead of the crankshaft absorbing them.
Picture a paper clip being bent back and forth over and over again. Eventually it's going to snap.
If there is nothing to absorb the extra vibrations, the crankshaft could end up being the paper clip.

Here's another thing that I'd like to add. I have no doubt that NST makes a good product but the issue that I have is that we are replacing a product with a completely different product.

ar design · 02-22-2010, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

Did you see the link that I posted?
Look in the picture of the damper.Do you see the piece of rubber on the damper?
I'll copy and paste.

I think that below is enough proof.
Look what BMW calls the pulley. It is not a pulley. It is a "vibration damper"

I talked to multiple engineers about this issue and there is a big difference between balanced and dampened.
We DO have a damper. It is supposed to absorb torsional vibrations instead of the crankshaft absorbing them.
Picture a paper clip being bent back and forth over and over again. Eventually it's going to snap.
If there is nothing to absorb the extra vibrations, the crankshaft could end up being the paper clip.

Here's another thing that I'd like to add. I have no doubt that NST makes a good product but the issue that I have is that we are replacing a product with a completely different product.

Mr. 5 is dead on. Removing the damper is a REALLY bad idea. It is there for a reason. As for the 25whp peak gain, I'd love to see a customer dyno with that high of a #.

As to the comments that E36s remove the dampers all the time with no issue - AFAIK, the E36 has MASSIVE harmonics issues - not sure where they are getting their data, but I spoke with a shop we do a lot of business with that has extensive E36 M3 experience, and he confirmed my suspicions...

Craig@SupremePower · 02-22-2010, 07:18 PM

i'm steering clear of this one...

possible335i2008 · 02-22-2010, 07:19 PM

Wasn't this whole topic discussed and then there was a lot of drama about one company trying to fool another one? Either way seems like alot of drama for 10 hp maybe? get an intake, and for the op seems like you are either justifying your purchase or doing to P.R. for nst..imho, good luck with the pulley please let us know how it works out.

ar design · 02-22-2010, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by possible335i2008

Wasn't this whole topic discussed and then there was a lot of drama about one company trying to fool another one? Either way seems like alot of drama for 10 hp maybe? get an intake, and for the op seems like you are either justifying your purchase or doing to P.R. for nst..imho, good luck with the pulley please let us know how it works out.

x2. No idea why you'd want to gamble a $15k motor for an iffy 10hp...... Harmonics are a reality folks... Google it

Craig@SupremePower · 02-22-2010, 07:22 PM

yeah it seems motorwerks dropped this idea or just left the forum not sure which??

cn555ic · 02-22-2010, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig@SupremePower

i'm steering clear of this one...

+1 I hear you Craig...

2wheelsrbetter · 02-22-2010, 07:36 PM

i don't understand this post. sounds like more promotion than discussion. we all had this discussion months ago and neither of the 2 companies doing pulleys could back up their claims and went quiet. our stock pulley is a dampner and we all want proof theirs will perform as well/safely or we won't use it. i paid over $400 for an oem pulley months ago b/c no one could convince me otherwise. if there's new data, pics, etc let's see it. otherwise enjoy your pulley and give us updates in 50k intervals. i'm with mr. 5 and i've moved on.

dzenno · 02-22-2010, 08:09 PM

aren't all you guys running tunes that impact engine components..running turbos at 13-17 psi when they were designed for 8-9...but that's somehow ok..running catless when we know the car is designed with back pressure in mind..we all do this as we take it we'll pay to play, right?

Mr. 5, thanks for that diagram. I'll circle it back to NST and see what they say. I'm not promoting this pulley, I'm a customer and that's funny

I made a purchase rather quickly and was given the option of refund without even asking for it by NST if I had any doubts..I declined that offer and there are members on here running this pulley already with massive mods(former boosted,enrita)...I doubt these guys would run them if they were such high risk mods..

In any case, I'm going back to NST with the above diagram to gather feedback...you can do the same, they have AIM

02-22-2010, 03:59 PM	#1
dzenno Banned 286 Rep 5,876 Posts Drives: Join Date: Feb 2006 iTrader: (1)	NST crank pulley - discussion As some of you may know I've ordered the NST crank pulley yesterday and I'm waiting for it to arrive and be installed. A few members have posted concerns around using this pulley due to it not being a harmonic balancer. Digging around I discovered that our N54 engine is internally balanced and doesn't "require" (note the quotes around 'require') an external harmonic balancer (i.e. a crank pulley with a harmonic damper inside of it). What's even more interesting is that if you CUT RIGHT THROUGH the OEM crank pulley you'll notice that there is no rubber part to it which is what the harmonic damping is accomplished with. Keep in mind, harmonics and balancing when it comes to the engine is different. Key point, OEM crank pulley is NOT a harmonic balancer and there is no "requirement" to replace it with one that is. Can you or should you do this is entirely up to you but again, NOT required. Another thing to note is that the OEM pulley, being heavier, DOES reduce a very small amount of vibration and noise due to it just being heavier, NOT because its got a harmonic balancer. BUT, the noise/vibration are very small and insufficient to cause any engine damage, WHEN USING THE NST PULLEY! Here's a URL on review for NST pulleys: http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5661 3:29 The guys at NonStopTuning have offered to refund my purchase if I had any concerns whatsoever, but I don't think I'll be doing that. If you will comment on this thread please keep it on topic and centered around the N54 engine and NST pulleys. Please don't pollute the thread with freak accidents due to bad pulley installations or underdriven/overdriven pulleys being used as this is neither an under/overdriven pulley. Last edited by dzenno; 02-22-2010 at 05:14 PM..
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02-22-2010, 05:52 PM	#4
dzenno Banned 286 Rep 5,876 Posts Drives: Join Date: Feb 2006 iTrader: (1)	Bottom line I think is that n54 is internally balanced and doesn't have an external harmonic balancer element inside the crank pulley so a perf upgrade such as NST one should be causing no concern whatsoever..
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02-22-2010, 06:00 PM	#5
dzenno Banned 286 Rep 5,876 Posts Drives: Join Date: Feb 2006 iTrader: (1)	Found this: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmo...edirected=true see what they say on internally balanced engines and pulley upgrades when there is no external harmonic balancer present inside the OEM crank pulley such as in the N54 case.
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02-22-2010, 06:16 PM	#6
Mr. 5 Modder Raider 799 Rep 8,633 Posts Drives: M3 Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Surf City, HB iTrader: (31) Garage List 2007 e90 335i [8.00]	I'm sorry if I started the bad discussion on the other thread but i thought i would voice my concern. This is what I posted in the past: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=39 Remember that there is a big difference between balanced and dampened.
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02-22-2010, 06:17 PM	#7
rooster3.0 Major 27 Rep 1,306 Posts Drives: E92 335i Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Jersey iTrader: (4)	I'd like to see some 60-130 runs before and after install. Also, if NST did cut open a stock pulley, I don't see why they wouldn't take pictures and post it. It would only boost sales and increase buyer confidence in their R&D. __________________ Train with your head; not above it.
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02-22-2010, 06:19 PM	#8
vasillalov Mad Linux Guru On The Loose 1195 Rep 5,455 Posts Drives: 2008 335i Sedan, 2023 M3 Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Chicago, IL iTrader: (5) Garage List 2023 BMW M3 [0.00] 2008 335i E90 [8.00]	New BMW N54 engine costs about $24,000 new. Pulley gives you AT MOST 5-10 hp. This has to be one of the most expensive learning experiences you can have in case you mess up your engine. Besides, people who are looking to add this mod, already have other power adders. More power -> more stress on the crank. The more you mod, the more odds are stacking against you for failure. Call me a backwards person if you want, but I think that introducing more vibration on an engine that is already making significantly more power than stock is not a smart thing... Also, NST ran the engine with their pulley for how long? 1000 miles? ...and they declared it safe?... I want to see proof after 50K miles by comparing the wear/clearances on crank bearings of engines with and without their pulley. I my mind, I'd rather err on the safe side and not bother with pulleys!
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02-22-2010, 06:43 PM	#10
dzenno Banned 286 Rep 5,876 Posts Drives: Join Date: Feb 2006 iTrader: (1)	You seem to be saying that the n54 crank pulley has a 2nd piece to it for harmonic balancing. Prove it! To the other member and the comment about the price of the engine and power added with this mod, why do anything then, just keep your car stock .. Please stay on topic. I'm looking for technical info here not smart ass life lesson type comments....
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02-22-2010, 06:52 PM	#11
hun77777 Brigadier General 199 Rep 4,646 Posts Drives: SG E92 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Seattle WA iTrader: (58)	as mr.5 said, i don't take seller's word just because of their reputation. once you break your engine, it's your responsibility, not anyone else. so i'm totally on that note with mr.5. (just for the kick and giggle, i was at BMW dealer because one of my friend was looking for 335i about a year ago, CA was basically lying through a lot of things, especially when i brought up HPFP issues and such; bottom line is lots of SELLERS will do or say anything to make that sale.) one very easy way to end this discussion would be have nst post up the cut up pictures of OEM and NST pulley side by side which they claimed to have it done anyways so it shouldn't be a much of an issue for them... if little cut-up picture indeed 100% match, then i'm sure more people will be interested in this product... __________________ SGE92TT......................... 12.331 Sec @ 117.89 Mph............................POWERED BY l BMS DCI l HELIX IC l FORGE DVs l RR OCC & CP & SCOOPS l AR 3" DPs l AE QUADs l BLISTEIN PSS10 l P3 VENT GUAGE l VISHNU PROCEDE V5 AUTOTUNE l Lots of Window Stickers
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02-22-2010, 06:55 PM	#12
dzenno Banned 286 Rep 5,876 Posts Drives: Join Date: Feb 2006 iTrader: (1)	Oh by the way peak power added is around 10whp on avg BUT it's almost throughout the entire power band...key is almost 25 whp up top (above 6000 rpm) take a look at the dynos already posted..
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02-22-2010, 07:09 PM	#14
Mr. 5 Modder Raider 799 Rep 8,633 Posts Drives: M3 Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Surf City, HB iTrader: (31) Garage List 2007 e90 335i [8.00]	Did you see the link that I posted? Look in the picture of the damper.Do you see the piece of rubber on the damper? I'll copy and paste. I think that below is enough proof. Look what BMW calls the pulley. It is not a pulley. It is a "vibration damper" I talked to multiple engineers about this issue and there is a big difference between balanced and dampened. We DO have a damper. It is supposed to absorb torsional vibrations instead of the crankshaft absorbing them. Picture a paper clip being bent back and forth over and over again. Eventually it's going to snap. If there is nothing to absorb the extra vibrations, the crankshaft could end up being the paper clip. Here's another thing that I'd like to add. I have no doubt that NST makes a good product but the issue that I have is that we are replacing a product with a completely different product. __________________ e36 M3 Coupe, e36 325i Sedan e90 335i--SOLD Best 60-130-------------9.15 Seconds------------------WWW.MR5RACING.COM
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02-22-2010, 07:18 PM	#16
Craig@SupremePower G.O.A.T.! 1018 Rep 74,992 Posts Drives: '18 GMC Yukon XL Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: New Jersey iTrader: (14)	i'm steering clear of this one...
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02-22-2010, 07:19 PM	#17
possible335i2008 Major 182 Rep 1,222 Posts Drives: 335i Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: united states iTrader: (10)	Wasn't this whole topic discussed and then there was a lot of drama about one company trying to fool another one? Either way seems like alot of drama for 10 hp maybe? get an intake, and for the op seems like you are either justifying your purchase or doing to P.R. for nst..imho, good luck with the pulley please let us know how it works out.
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02-22-2010, 07:22 PM	#19
Craig@SupremePower G.O.A.T.! 1018 Rep 74,992 Posts Drives: '18 GMC Yukon XL Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: New Jersey iTrader: (14)	yeah it seems motorwerks dropped this idea or just left the forum not sure which??
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02-22-2010, 07:36 PM	#21
2wheelsrbetter Lieutenant 31 Rep 516 Posts Drives: hot rod Join Date: May 2009 Location: at the beach iTrader: (10)	i don't understand this post. sounds like more promotion than discussion. we all had this discussion months ago and neither of the 2 companies doing pulleys could back up their claims and went quiet. our stock pulley is a dampner and we all want proof theirs will perform as well/safely or we won't use it. i paid over $400 for an oem pulley months ago b/c no one could convince me otherwise. if there's new data, pics, etc let's see it. otherwise enjoy your pulley and give us updates in 50k intervals. i'm with mr. 5 and i've moved on. __________________ 07 e90 335i 13 mk6 GTI 13 f30 335i
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02-22-2010, 08:09 PM	#22
dzenno Banned 286 Rep 5,876 Posts Drives: Join Date: Feb 2006 iTrader: (1)	aren't all you guys running tunes that impact engine components..running turbos at 13-17 psi when they were designed for 8-9...but that's somehow ok..running catless when we know the car is designed with back pressure in mind..we all do this as we take it we'll pay to play, right? Mr. 5, thanks for that diagram. I'll circle it back to NST and see what they say. I'm not promoting this pulley, I'm a customer and that's funny I made a purchase rather quickly and was given the option of refund without even asking for it by NST if I had any doubts..I declined that offer and there are members on here running this pulley already with massive mods(former boosted,enrita)...I doubt these guys would run them if they were such high risk mods.. In any case, I'm going back to NST with the above diagram to gather feedback...you can do the same, they have AIM
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