[BGM]

Hi,

So I have had an issue with my car for a bit in that it is tracking to the left and the steering wheel isn't straight (marginally left) and then if you straight it up it tracks slightly to the right!!

Very annoying..

anyway, i had KDS done on the vehicle a few weeks back, and it didn't fix it.. I have dropped it off for the dealer to have another go today.. and they gave me the KDS results from last time.

Can anyone decipher them, or perhaps clearly see what could be causing an issue?

I notice that the rear camber is still out of tolerance even after the KDS has been completed.. I also notice that in the top left it says 'without loading' i thought KDS was loading the vehicle?

Thanks

Chris

[doughboy]

Can you put up a colour scan so we can see the red/green print?

Did you ask for a KDS check only, or pay extra labour for corrections to be made?

The basic KDS fee does not include for adjustments. MY dealer charged £180 for the check and £100 for the adjustments and re-check.

They obviously haven't made any corrections as the rear camber is out and the wheel is not centred.

If they carried out adjustments then the steering wheel MUST be set exactly straight and no measurements would be out of spec (obviously, else you wouldn't pay them)

I had mine done again recently at a Hunter specialist (Hunter make the KDS machine), £40 for the measurements. It need the rear toe setting, but it was very minor error so i left it for the time being.

The vehicle just sits there unloaded, the angle settings are specific for the unloaded ride height, ie. with sports suspension etc.

[BGM]

hi,

the sheet i have has no colour coding on it.. i was also expecting coloured squares, but it seems not to be the case..

the dealer i took this too had some kind of special offer on as it was £150 all in..

they clearly have made some kind of adjustments as the final measurements have changed, but i just don't think they have done a very good job of it! perhaps this is something to do with the low price, haha

i'll ask for the sheet again when i go to see them this afternoon, getting this one out of them was akin to blood from a stone..

[doughboy]

My KDS print was in colour and it showed the out of tolerance figures in RED and the corrected final figures in Green.

How can they have adjusted it and the rear camber still be out? They Must all be in tolerance after an adjustment, that's the whole point? Your left rear camber is now MORE out of spec by 3 minutes (1/60th of a degree) than it was before!!!

With KDS or any proper 4 wheel alignment, the car is set FROM THE REAR via the 'geometrical driving axis' or 'thrust angle' which ideally should be zero, that's why the rear figures appear first on the results.

So the front can only be corrected properly if the rear is in spec first. Even if the front is spot on and the rear needs adjustment, then the whole car needs checking / adjustment again once the rear is set correct.

That's why cheap centre-line based front alignments (kwik fit / most basic garages etc) are poor and can still lead to 'crabbing' as they don't take the rear angles into account.


Monkeys.

[BGM]

Originally Posted by doughboy

My KDS print was in colour and it showed the out of tolerance figures in RED and the corrected final figures in Green.

How can they have adjusted it and the rear camber still be out? They Must all be in tolerance after an adjustment, that's the whole point? Your left rear camber is now MORE out of spec by 3 minutes (1/60th of a degree) than it was before!!!

With KDS or any proper 4 wheel alignment, the car is set FROM THE REAR via the 'geometrical driving axis' or 'thrust angle' which ideally should be zero, that's why the rear figures appear first on the results.

So the front can only be corrected properly if the rear is in spec first. Even if the front is spot on and the rear needs adjustment, then the whole car needs checking / adjustment again once the rear is set correct.

That's why cheap centre-line based front alignments (kwik fit / most basic garages etc) are poor and can still lead to 'crabbing' as they don't take the rear angles into account.


Monkeys.

excellent post, cheers for the info..

i'll go back armed with this info, i initially thought that yes they had made some things worse but wasn't sure if i was misreading the numbers.

/me gets whacking stick

[jinjur]

Sorry for the tangent.......I know this KDS lark is darned expensive.....

Would a place with a "Corghi" machine do just as good a job?

like this 'un

Regards
Andy

[doughboy]

It looks like a Hunter machine, but I'm not sure. As long as it does a full four wheel 3D measurement, which from the spec it looks like it does, you should be OK.

Can't hurt to give them a call

Hunter make KDS machines, you can find your local Hunter aligment place at

www.alignmycar.co.uk don't know if they cover NI though...

Most places charge £40-60 for a check, as compared to £200 at a dealer.

Any adjustments will be further labour of course.

[jinjur]

Thanks chap.......going to give them a try.

Heck, at least its not just a laser jobbie.

Have a dose of very vague steering and worn outer edges but im putting that down to runflats on the front and regulars on the back

Regards
Andy

[BGM]

i am so angry right now.. got the car back and it's WORSE!

how hard can this be not to get right?!?

steering wheel is now sitting even further to the left then it was before, although on a plus point the KDS numbers now all come back within tolerance.

Barons of Farnborough will be getting an earfull tomorrow, i am furious!

Anyone got any advice on how i can get them to sort this out, they clearly don't know what they are doing so i feel as if i am going to need to instruct them myself..

will be speaking to the guy that is actually doing the work too, not the monkey that they send to speak to me each time who knows sweet fa about what i'm actually talking about.

Arrrrgh!!!!

[chris330D]

Take no prisoners! Ask to speak to the service manager don't be fobbed off by the service desk clerks. Explain clearly and calmly what the problem is and ask the service manager if they are happy with what has happened and then what are they going to do. Don't leave until you get what you want but make sure you are clear on this before you go in.

[JLR1969]

After hitting the kerb with both wheels I had a KDS at Sytner High Wycombe. The before and after printout was in colour red and green.

They tried to charge me twice once for the measuring and once for the adjustment. I complained and refused to pay stating that it should include everything. It was on offer at £148.

They did agree that they could check and adjust all wheels in the allocated time to do a KDS and only charged me a total of £148.

The car feels amazing, even better than it did before the accident.

I cannot praise Sytner High Wycombe highly enough.

[BGM]

I do wonder if this could be something to do with the steering, perhaps there is some 'give' in the movement of the wheel before the actual wheels turn?

It's going back in tomorrow for some investigation.. so i might mention that to them.

Any thoughts?

[doughboy]

Originally Posted by JLR1969

They tried to charge me twice once for the measuring and once for the adjustment. I complained and refused to pay stating that it should include everything.

Coem on, that is the usual idea. You have it checked first and pay more if it needs adjusting.

If it didn't need adjusting you'd moan that they should have charged you less for not adjusting it!!!!!

Do you expect them to check you tyres and then replace them for free if they're worn?

Originally Posted by BGM

I do wonder if this could be something to do with the steering, perhaps there is some 'give' in the movement of the wheel before the actual wheels turn?

They should somehow fix or set the wheel at dead straight before the adjust the front toe, othewise it will be out for sure - even a basic kwik fit bodge strap the wheel to the pedals before setting it.

[JLR1969]

[QUOTE=doughboy;6798323]Coem on, that is the usual idea. You have it checked first and pay more if it needs adjusting.

If it didn't need adjusting you'd moan that they should have charged you less for not adjusting it!!!!!

Do you expect them to check you tyres and then replace them for free if they're worn?


Hardly the same is it, the car went in as it was blatantly obvious everything was out as the car was pulling to the left. It did not need checking just fixing.

Have you ever gone to quick fit in the past and asked for wheel alignment and been charged twice!!! Never, you pay one fee to set the car up correctly.

[BGM]

Originally Posted by doughboy

Do you expect them to check you tyres and then replace them for free if they're worn?

i'd expect the check to see if they are worn to be free

anyway, i think you're right about the 'setting the wheel straight to start with'

does anyone know the correct procedure for performing this alignment, i am considering watching them while they do it as i'm not convinced they are doing it right

the second read out i was given has different headings on for things that were measured.. i mean for starters there is no 'setback' figures for the front axle this time around.. (whatever that is)

and they have apparently now decided that none of my tyres have star designations or any pressure in them.

getting a distinct impression they have not done this properly

i mean seriously if they can't get something this simple right do they really think im going to take me vehicle to them for a service..

*sigh*

[iamjim]

I think I have possibly the same issue.

My steering wheel is ever so slightly offset that if the steering wheel was Tick Toc centre the car will drift to the left. So say on a motorway I have to hold the car steering wheel ever so slightly right to compensate. Is this KDS or Steering alignment?

Can’t see if my car drifts until the steering wheel is realigned? Or could it be that the alignment is really bad?!

[doughboy]

[QUOTE=JLR1969;6799457]

Originally Posted by doughboy

Coem on, that is the usual idea. You have it checked first and pay more if it needs adjusting.

If it didn't need adjusting you'd moan that they should have charged you less for not adjusting it!!!!!

Do you expect them to check you tyres and then replace them for free if they're worn?


Hardly the same is it, the car went in as it was blatantly obvious everything was out as the car was pulling to the left. It did not need checking just fixing.

Have you ever gone to quick fit in the past and asked for wheel alignment and been charged twice!!! Never, you pay one fee to set the car up correctly.

But ALL proper wheel alignments are charged like this, even the local Hunter alignment I had recently was £40 for the check and £60 more to adjust and re-test if necessary.

Mine didn't need adjusting so I was pleased I didn't have to pay for it!!

It much more fair to charge for the check and then extra labour on top for corrections as they have to re-check it again afterwards too.

The corrections can often take longer than the check and its not fair for those that don't need correction to have to pay for it.

Yes, a Kwik fit £35 all in 10 minute job in includes the 30 seconds of toe adjustment which is all they will ever do.

I agree though the dealer should have made it more clear that you would have to pay further labour for correction, my dealer certainly did when I had mine done last year, but you did well IMO to get it included

[JLR1969]

[QUOTE=doughboy;6809042]

Originally Posted by JLR1969

But ALL proper wheel alignments are charged like this, even the local Hunter alignment I had recently was £40 for the check and £60 more to adjust and re-test if necessary.

Mine didn't need adjusting so I was pleased I didn't have to pay for it!!

It much more fair to charge for the check and then extra labour on top for corrections as they have to re-check it again afterwards too.

The corrections can often take longer than the check and its not fair for those that don't need correction to have to pay for it.

Yes, a Kwik fit £35 all in 10 minute job in includes the 30 seconds of toe adjustment which is all they will ever do.

I agree though the dealer should have made it more clear that you would have to pay further labour for correction, my dealer certainly did when I had mine done last year, but you did well IMO to get it included

I was pleased with the outcome and Sytners attitude, to be fair though the normal price is about £300 so for that much i would expect at least 2 hours labour to both check and adjust.

[BGM]

[QUOTE=JLR1969;6816787]

Originally Posted by doughboy

I was pleased with the outcome and Sytners attitude, to be fair though the normal price is about £300 so for that much i would expect at least 2 hours labour to both check and adjust.

Like I say, Barons of Farnborough have some special deal on where its £150 all in.. if only they could get it right!!!

Going into the shop again on Saturday, where I am going to watch over the guy doing the work like a hawkman, and not leave until it's sorted!

Service Manager was a very friendly chap btw.. they are trying, bless them