My effing steering wheel!

BGM · 03-14-2010, 05:30 PM

Ok, so I have an issue with my steering that i have briefly detailed in this thread: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=355016

Since posting that up, I have had the car up on the KDS machine at Barons of Farnborough a further 5 times and it still is not to my satisfaction.

To expand in a bit more detail, here is my complaint:

Steering wheel 'settles' slight off centre (left)
Driving in a straight line is only achieved holding the wheel slightly off centre to the same degree
Straightening up the wheel results in the car steering to the right
It is off centre by less than approximately half a cm

So this is the complaint I went in to Barons of Farnborough with, and after umpteen times up on the KDS machine it still isn't fixed! I have just driven back from London, and it really is so annoying you wouldn't believe.

Now, I understand that RHD vehicles have a slight bias to the left as a 'safety feature', I have noticed this on other vehicles I have had (VW, Ford).. could it be this causing my issue perhaps?

FYI my car is fitted with standard M Sport suspension, and 225 19" alloys.. and this issue is driving me up the wall!!!

I am going to call them again tomorrow.. but what the hell do I say, I am already dealing with the head of the service dept, who in his defence has been really helpful. But it still isn't fixed

AlanQS · 03-14-2010, 05:42 PM

My steering wheel isn't exactly straight on when the car is driving straight. I think it's just a wheel fitting issue that can't be fixed.

pjs · 03-14-2010, 05:44 PM

mine hangs a bit to the left, as did previous e90

BGM · 03-14-2010, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlanQS

My steering wheel isn't exactly straight on when the car is driving straight. I think it's just a wheel fitting issue that can't be fixed.

it's utterly ridiculous, i actually went so far as to go for a test drive in a new 3-series and it does the same thing... but i don't care and want it fixed.

How can 'the ultimate driving machine' not have a steering wheel that is centred correctly..

Dr Dave · 03-14-2010, 06:17 PM

Nothing worng with the cars - the roads are cambered to the left/nearside and that's what you are seeing/feeling, explaining why the KDS results are within spec etc.

BGM · 03-14-2010, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Dave

Nothing worng with the cars - the roads are cambered to the left/nearside and that's what you are seeing/feeling, explaining why the KDS results are within spec etc.

this is basically the same bullshit I'm getting off of BMW.. why has this not happened in any other vehicle I have owned.

does this also include the outside lane of the motorway?

which i would expect to camber in the opposite direction (to the right)... or, as a primary transit route of the nation not at all.

Dave_3 · 03-14-2010, 06:26 PM

It does depend on the camber/crown of the road too.

I am back in the UK at present, and on certain roads there is a slight tendency to pull to the left.

Over in Switzerland there is a slight tendency to pull to the right.

Both cases only very slightly.

Be careful [!], but try driving on the other (wrong) side of a road where you notice the wheel being offset slightly. You'll soon see if it is just the effect of the camber of the road.

The Ultimate Driving Machine ™ uses tyre sizes (width and profile) that are very much marketing led, than setup for true backroad finesse. The price you pay is sensitivity to load effects on the wheels. Just pure physics when you have wide tyres.

D.

BGM · 03-14-2010, 06:32 PM

i wonder if taking to a rolling road (which should i imagine be set up to be completely flat) would show up, or correctly dispel any issues with my steering?

it's a shame we don't have any mirror flat dubai-esc roads in the UK... bloody pay enough for the privilege

Dr Dave · 03-14-2010, 06:33 PM

The Rover 75/MG ZT exhibited the SAME characteristic when it was launched. I'm sure many other cars have done so too.

Dr Dave · 03-14-2010, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGM

this is basically the same bullshit I'm getting off of BMW..

I/we're trying to help! Not bullshitting at all! Being an ex-aftersales manager at a dealership I know what it's like

Dave_3 · 03-14-2010, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGM

i wonder if taking to a rolling road (which should i imagine be set up to be completely flat) would show up, or correctly dispel any issues with my steering?(

No it won't.

Ever tried to keep the front wheels straight on rollers - e.g. MOT brake tests ? Won't prove a thing.

Drive up a bit of road you know pulls to the left [I'm assuming a crowned road, equal falloff from the centre on both sides]. Go back, drive on the right side of the road (use common sense) and see if it pulls to the left still. Simple test, easily done.

If it pulls slightly to the right, and assumimg the KDS was done correctly, there is nothing more you can do.

I've seen many people complaining about this in many types of cars, Ford even had a problem with the Mondeo. Nothing new :

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/do...g-1275384.html

Quote:

One industry source said that it was unlikely that Mondeos were faulty. "They are mainly cars used by sales reps and tend to be designed to take a pounding. All cars tend to drift left on the left-hand side of a road which has a camber

D.

HighlandPete · 03-14-2010, 07:47 PM

I don't buy any of this pulling to the left is normal, or a safety feature.

I've never had a new car that pulls to the left or right. My present BMW runs perfectly straight, wheel is exactly in the right place.

What you have to do is check it out, as Dave says, find a flat road and see if it pulls, or not. On the crown of a road it should be perfectly straight and not need any adjustment on the steering wheel to run true. Even if you release the steering wheel the car, and steering wheel, will stay straight.

Now camber sensitivity, is another thing altogether, will pull either way according to the camber. Wheels, suspension settings, tyres and geometry can all play a part in camber sensitivities. But you will drift both left and right according to the camber, and to the same degree on either direction of camber.

If you are not sure of what is a flat road, put a small spirit level in a known level place in the car (I'm not joking) and drive safely, (you may need help of a passenger), 'on the bubble' and see if the car pulls.

HighlandPete

BGM · 03-15-2010, 05:21 AM

HighlandPete,

The main issue i'm having is that it NEVER hangs to the right.. still need to ring the stealer though :/

i will try and do the spirit level thingy!

doughboy · 03-15-2010, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I don't buy any of this pulling to the left is normal, or a safety feature.

I've never had a new car that pulls to the left or right. My present BMW runs perfectly straight, wheel is exactly in the right place.

HighlandPete

In fact I would think it most odd if it wasn't like that.

+1, any slight natural drift to the left - with no hands on the wheel - is to do with camber, but you will need a fair bit of camber for the wheel to actually 'move' to the left.

My wheel is spot on centre and the car goes dead straight on a level road., it needs a fair camber to start running left.

The car should go dead straight when the wheel is straight ahead.

If the KDS operator set the angles equally as opposed to just 'within spec' and had the wheel held at 12 o'clock whilst setting it then it all has to be straight.

Can you post up your lastest KDS printout?

zaytar · 03-15-2010, 06:20 AM

I'm worried now.

I had the KDS alignment carried out last week - Not because I felt it was needed more so because it was recommended (potholes, wheels off plenty of times last year for RFT ditch etc).

Car came back running straight but with the steering wheel not aligned. I took it back on Friday and the Service rep initially eluded to the fact that it may have to be a consequence I have to live with as a result of the alignment. I'm not having that at all, the car looks like it has been either shunted or an accident repair!

Its back in tomorrow where they hope to sort.

BGM · 03-15-2010, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doughboy

Can you post up your lastest KDS printout?

will give them a bell later and see if they can send it to me.

zedman · 03-15-2010, 06:44 AM

i know how incredibly annoying that is, hit my rear wheel on the kerb and had to have KDS done - my wheel is not perfectly straight but is equally pulling to the left or the right depending on the road and just occasionally it sits perfect!

I just had it done again this weekend (hit the same wheel on nearly the same kerb) on a Hunter machine from an independant for the princely sum of £44 and it's perfect!

BGM · 03-15-2010, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zedman

I just had it done again this weekend (hit the same wheel on nearly the same kerb) on a Hunter machine from an independant for the princely sum of £44 and it's perfect!

wow really... i have a good mind to ask for my money back if they can't sort it out :/

but i know the chances of that happening are slim to none.

doughboy · 03-15-2010, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zedman

I just had it done again this weekend (hit the same wheel on nearly the same kerb) on a Hunter machine from an independant for the princely sum of £44 and it's perfect!

Precisely. The problem is numpty's at BMW rather than the car.

doughboy · 03-15-2010, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGM

will give them a bell later and see if they can send it to me.

What do you mean? They didn't give it to you with the bill??

I wouldn't pay until I saw the full report, what proof do you have of the work?

WTF are these people doing?

HighlandPete · 03-15-2010, 07:47 AM

I'm amazed at how many users have issues after cars have been aligned. I've had one car, a VW, that was perfect until it needed new parts under warranty and then the alignment was wrong. Took a lot of effort to get VW to get it right, but that is another story.

What ever happens, don't let anyone remove the steering wheel and reposition it. Some garages will try that one.

Has the car really been aligned, a proper 4-wheel geomerty calibration, starting at the rear and getting the thrust angle/thrust line correct first? Or are we talking attempts at resetting the front, to get the steering wheel aligned.

One thing to remember, if new front tyres are fitted and alignment issues appear, don't rule out problems with the tyres.

HighlandPete

doughboy · 03-15-2010, 07:54 AM

They have to 'fix' or 'hold' the wheel at the centre position so the rack is in the centre before adjusting the track rod ends other wise the rack will move.

As HighlandPete says, the car must be set from the rear first as this determines the required front toe settings.

IF an initial check shows adjustment required at the rear, when this is done the front will need adjusting to compensate for this.

BGM: Does the car behave differently when you accelerate or coast without hands on the wheel?

03-14-2010, 05:30 PM	#1
BGM Colonel 62 Rep 2,398 Posts Drives: F20 M140i Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Farnborough, UK iTrader: (0)	My effing steering wheel! Ok, so I have an issue with my steering that i have briefly detailed in this thread: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=355016 Since posting that up, I have had the car up on the KDS machine at Barons of Farnborough a further 5 times and it still is not to my satisfaction. To expand in a bit more detail, here is my complaint: Steering wheel 'settles' slight off centre (left) Driving in a straight line is only achieved holding the wheel slightly off centre to the same degree Straightening up the wheel results in the car steering to the right It is off centre by less than approximately half a cm So this is the complaint I went in to Barons of Farnborough with, and after umpteen times up on the KDS machine it still isn't fixed! I have just driven back from London, and it really is so annoying you wouldn't believe. Now, I understand that RHD vehicles have a slight bias to the left as a 'safety feature', I have noticed this on other vehicles I have had (VW, Ford).. could it be this causing my issue perhaps? FYI my car is fitted with standard M Sport suspension, and 225 19" alloys.. and this issue is driving me up the wall!!! I am going to call them again tomorrow.. but what the hell do I say, I am already dealing with the head of the service dept, who in his defence has been really helpful. But it still isn't fixed
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03-14-2010, 05:42 PM	#2
AlanQS Colonel 248 Rep 2,815 Posts Drives: Jaguar XE P250 HSE Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Glasgow iTrader: (0) Garage List 2016 430i m-sport G ... [0.00]	My steering wheel isn't exactly straight on when the car is driving straight. I think it's just a wheel fitting issue that can't be fixed.
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03-14-2010, 05:44 PM	#3
pjs Colonel 284 Rep 2,774 Posts Drives: i8 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: NORTH iTrader: (1)	mine hangs a bit to the left, as did previous e90
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03-14-2010, 06:17 PM	#5
Dr Dave Zummerzet Zyder Drinker! 115 Rep 5,541 Posts Drives: '06 330D Le Mans Blue Join Date: May 2009 Location: Somerset iTrader: (3) Garage List 2006 330d M Sport [0.00]	Nothing worng with the cars - the roads are cambered to the left/nearside and that's what you are seeing/feeling, explaining why the KDS results are within spec etc. __________________
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03-14-2010, 06:26 PM	#7
Dave_3 Brigadier General 658 Rep 3,447 Posts Drives: G22 M440D Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: CH / SCO iTrader: (0) Garage List 1973 Escort RS2000 MK1 [10.00]	It does depend on the camber/crown of the road too. I am back in the UK at present, and on certain roads there is a slight tendency to pull to the left. Over in Switzerland there is a slight tendency to pull to the right. Both cases only very slightly. Be careful [!], but try driving on the other (wrong) side of a road where you notice the wheel being offset slightly. You'll soon see if it is just the effect of the camber of the road. The Ultimate Driving Machine ™ uses tyre sizes (width and profile) that are very much marketing led, than setup for true backroad finesse. The price you pay is sensitivity to load effects on the wheels. Just pure physics when you have wide tyres. D. __________________ Escort Mk1 RS2000 (2.1 2x44IDFS, BVH, Kent FR32, 5spd, 180 BHP) : M440D ¦ Previously : F32 435D : F32 430D M Sport sDrive, 335D E92 2006
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03-14-2010, 06:32 PM	#8
BGM Colonel 62 Rep 2,398 Posts Drives: F20 M140i Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Farnborough, UK iTrader: (0)	i wonder if taking to a rolling road (which should i imagine be set up to be completely flat) would show up, or correctly dispel any issues with my steering? it's a shame we don't have any mirror flat dubai-esc roads in the UK... bloody pay enough for the privilege
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03-14-2010, 06:33 PM	#9
Dr Dave Zummerzet Zyder Drinker! 115 Rep 5,541 Posts Drives: '06 330D Le Mans Blue Join Date: May 2009 Location: Somerset iTrader: (3) Garage List 2006 330d M Sport [0.00]	The Rover 75/MG ZT exhibited the SAME characteristic when it was launched. I'm sure many other cars have done so too. __________________
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03-14-2010, 07:47 PM	#12
HighlandPete Lieutenant General 6550 Rep 15,857 Posts Drives: BMW F11 535i Touring Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Scotland, Highland Region iTrader: (0)	I don't buy any of this pulling to the left is normal, or a safety feature. I've never had a new car that pulls to the left or right. My present BMW runs perfectly straight, wheel is exactly in the right place. What you have to do is check it out, as Dave says, find a flat road and see if it pulls, or not. On the crown of a road it should be perfectly straight and not need any adjustment on the steering wheel to run true. Even if you release the steering wheel the car, and steering wheel, will stay straight. Now camber sensitivity, is another thing altogether, will pull either way according to the camber. Wheels, suspension settings, tyres and geometry can all play a part in camber sensitivities. But you will drift both left and right according to the camber, and to the same degree on either direction of camber. If you are not sure of what is a flat road, put a small spirit level in a known level place in the car (I'm not joking) and drive safely, (you may need help of a passenger), 'on the bubble' and see if the car pulls. HighlandPete
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03-15-2010, 05:21 AM	#13
BGM Colonel 62 Rep 2,398 Posts Drives: F20 M140i Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Farnborough, UK iTrader: (0)	HighlandPete, The main issue i'm having is that it NEVER hangs to the right.. still need to ring the stealer though :/ i will try and do the spirit level thingy!
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03-15-2010, 06:20 AM	#15
zaytar Private 4 Rep 87 Posts Drives: E92 335i Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Birmingham iTrader: (0)	I'm worried now. I had the KDS alignment carried out last week - Not because I felt it was needed more so because it was recommended (potholes, wheels off plenty of times last year for RFT ditch etc). Car came back running straight but with the steering wheel not aligned. I took it back on Friday and the Service rep initially eluded to the fact that it may have to be a consequence I have to live with as a result of the alignment. I'm not having that at all, the car looks like it has been either shunted or an accident repair! Its back in tomorrow where they hope to sort.
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03-15-2010, 06:44 AM	#17
zedman First Lieutenant 15 Rep 389 Posts Drives: E92 M Sport 320D, Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Sheffield iTrader: (0)	i know how incredibly annoying that is, hit my rear wheel on the kerb and had to have KDS done - my wheel is not perfectly straight but is equally pulling to the left or the right depending on the road and just occasionally it sits perfect! I just had it done again this weekend (hit the same wheel on nearly the same kerb) on a Hunter machine from an independant for the princely sum of £44 and it's perfect!
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03-15-2010, 07:47 AM	#21
HighlandPete Lieutenant General 6550 Rep 15,857 Posts Drives: BMW F11 535i Touring Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Scotland, Highland Region iTrader: (0)	I'm amazed at how many users have issues after cars have been aligned. I've had one car, a VW, that was perfect until it needed new parts under warranty and then the alignment was wrong. Took a lot of effort to get VW to get it right, but that is another story. What ever happens, don't let anyone remove the steering wheel and reposition it. Some garages will try that one. Has the car really been aligned, a proper 4-wheel geomerty calibration, starting at the rear and getting the thrust angle/thrust line correct first? Or are we talking attempts at resetting the front, to get the steering wheel aligned. One thing to remember, if new front tyres are fitted and alignment issues appear, don't rule out problems with the tyres. HighlandPete
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03-15-2010, 07:54 AM	#22
doughboy Major General 1578 Rep 8,971 Posts Drives: 2018 M2 Comp 6MT Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: UK iTrader: (2)	They have to 'fix' or 'hold' the wheel at the centre position so the rack is in the centre before adjusting the track rod ends other wise the rack will move. As HighlandPete says, the car must be set from the rear first as this determines the required front toe settings. IF an initial check shows adjustment required at the rear, when this is done the front will need adjusting to compensate for this. BGM: Does the car behave differently when you accelerate or coast without hands on the wheel?
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