Procede safety systems

dzenno · 06-23-2010, 04:42 PM

Shiv, is their safety logic in procede that monitors AFRs (wideband) and possibly feed in an external EGT signal from an EGT sensor(s) so it can address this as well?...

i'm trying to think how to add more safety that would allow me/us to experiment with higher boost once my upgraded turbos are here while having all the safety required in place to back down on boost if required...would it be beneficial in getting standalone AFR/EGT sensors welded in and how would I hook those into procede?

Just having gauges for these isn't sufficient for me..

OpenFlash · 06-23-2010, 04:46 PM

Are you asking if you can hook up an EGT sensor directly to the Procede? And then have some sort of failsafe if EGTs get beyond a trigger point?

dzenno · 06-23-2010, 05:08 PM

Yes exactly.

Also, same question for an AFR wideband sensor if I were to weld additional bungs on my DPs..How accurate is the current proceed wideband? Is that incorporated into the safety net somehow using some thresholds?

BrianMN · 06-23-2010, 05:25 PM

That would be cool..I'm sure many people, including myself, would be very willing to weld in an EGT bung right after the turbos to monitor EGT.

dzenno · 06-23-2010, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianMN

That would be cool..I'm sure many people, including myself, would be very willing to weld in an EGT bung right after the turbos to monitor EGT.

Epecially seeing enrita's failure and the fact that had a signal like this been hooked into a tune's safety net his engine "might've" been saved..Please keep this on topic

don't discuss how jb3 did this/that

just looking for a way to add this functionality in somehow..

OpenFlash · 06-23-2010, 06:35 PM

To be honest, I don't think you will need either an add-on aftermarket AFR or a EGT gauge. We have already imported wideband lambda/AFR into the Procede's datalogging. All we need to do is correct it for the wideband bias that we apply with the tune and it will be just as accurate and fast responding as an aftermarket wideband gauge (I run a free-air calibrated innovative wideband in my car for testing/calibration). And you will have 1 for each of the two banks.

As for EGT, we've been logging the bank1 and bank2 EGT channels from the CANbus. And they are also surprisingly fast-responding. In a 3rd gear pull, my car (in valet mode) goes from 300C to 700C which is spot on from what I'd expect from a traditional gauge mounted in the same location (post turbo). It should be just as accurate as any post-turbo mounted aftermarket EGT sensor when no cats are used (as I suspect will be the case for people running aftermarket turbos/high boost).

So, in summary, save your money as you essentially have 2 WB AFR gauges an 2 EGT probes in your car as it is

Shiv

HB335 · 06-23-2010, 06:40 PM

Sweet, That's good to know!

dzenno · 06-23-2010, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

To be honest, I don't think you will need either an add-on aftermarket AFR or a EGT gauge. We have already imported wideband lambda/AFR into the Procede's datalogging. All we need to do is correct it for the wideband bias that we apply with the tune and it will be just as accurate and fast responding as an aftermarket wideband gauge (I run a free-air calibrated innovative wideband in my car for testing/calibration). And you will have 1 for each of the two banks.

As for EGT, we've been logging the bank1 and bank2 EGT channels from the CANbus. And they are also surprisingly fast-responding. In a 3rd gear pull, my car (in valet mode) goes from 300C to 700C which is spot on from what I'd expect from a traditional gauge mounted in the same location (post turbo). It should be just as accurate as any post-turbo mounted aftermarket EGT sensor when no cats are used (as I suspect will be the case for people running aftermarket turbos/high boost).

So, in summary, save your money as you essentially have 2 WB AFR gauges an 2 EGT probes in your car as it is

Shiv

OK great, which channels are EGTs monitored on, I'd like to have them in the datalogs?

Also, are EGTs being monitored by procede just like fuel pressure, overboost, timing, rpm windows, is there anything in regards to EGTs or AFRs (e.g. some thresholds) that would cause procede to kick you out to valet mode or back down into the less aggressive map?

OpenFlash · 06-23-2010, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dzenno

OK great, which channels are EGTs monitored on, I'd like to have them in the datalogs?

Also, are EGTs being monitored by procede just like fuel pressure, overboost, timing, rpm windows, is there anything in regards to EGTs or AFRs (e.g. some thresholds) that would cause procede to kick you out to valet mode or back down into the less aggressive map?

EGT is not monitored in the publicly released firmware (#14). I'm currently monitoring in firmware that I'm testing right now which will be released soon. With fuel pressure, meth flow, boost, ignition advance, knock amount, afr and EGT all being monitored realtime, it's easy to apply some sort of safety feature for big turbo applications that run near the limit of the fuel system (or with meth). We already have much of that in place with the nitrous window switch which needs all those values to be within a certain range between triggering ON. We can easily tweak that compound conditional and extend that to general use.

Shiv

dzenno · 06-23-2010, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

EGT is not monitored in the publicly released firmware (#14). I'm currently monitoring in firmware that I'm testing right now which will be released soon. With fuel pressure, meth flow, boost, ignition advance, knock amount, afr and EGT all being monitored realtime, it's easy to apply some sort of safety feature for big turbo applications that run near the limit of the fuel system (or with meth). We already have much of that in place with the nitrous window switch which needs all those values to be within a certain range between triggering ON. We can easily tweak that compound conditional and extend that to general use.

Shiv

Now you're talkin'

afr and egt monitoring by the tune would make me personally a lot more comfortable testing higher boost applications as the tune wouldn't blindly hold boost if EGT's for example went out of whack...

AltecBX · 06-23-2010, 11:41 PM

Why is EGT only mentioned when talking about diesel?
Can the Vishnu meth kit be setup to spray after a certain EGT temperature or is this not a good scenario?

dzenno · 06-24-2010, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AltecBX

Why is EGT only mentioned when talking about diesel?
Can the Vishnu meth kit be setup to spray after a certain EGT temperature or is this not a good scenario?

Think its because of the way combustion happens, spark vs compression driven..

dzenno · 06-24-2010, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

EGT is not monitored in the publicly released firmware (#14). I'm currently monitoring in firmware that I'm testing right now which will be released soon. With fuel pressure, meth flow, boost, ignition advance, knock amount, afr and EGT all being monitored realtime, it's easy to apply some sort of safety feature for big turbo applications that run near the limit of the fuel system (or with meth). We already have much of that in place with the nitrous window switch which needs all those values to be within a certain range between triggering ON. We can easily tweak that compound conditional and extend that to general use.

Shiv

Shiv, is canbus sufficiently fast to provide signal voltage data back to the tune in case of a failure scenario (what freq does the canbus work on)? Wouldn't there be an advantage in wiring in external analog sensors directly to a piggy as it could instantaneously react to an analog signal voltage?

AltecBX · 06-24-2010, 01:08 AM

I would think is just as fast. My guess 1/32 of a sec (0.003 sec)

Prince ///M · 06-24-2010, 01:46 AM

In the past discussions (I asked sveral times info about egt with no answer) it was stated that the can bus value is CALCULATED from engine load with a thermal exchange model. In this case, due to the influence of piggybacks on signals read by the DME, this calculation would be very unaccurate.

Btw, if such a sensor is actually installed on our car, it would be a great safety feature to implement a EGT dependent progressive boost taper.

OpenFlash · 06-24-2010, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince ///M

In the past discussions (I asked sveral times info about egt with no answer) it was stated that the can bus value is CALCULATED from engine load with a thermal exchange model. In this case, due to the influence of piggybacks on signals read by the DME, this calculation would be very unaccurate.

Btw, if such a sensor is actually installed on our car, it would be a great safety feature to implement a EGT dependent progressive boost taper.

Actually, it looks like it is calculated by the DME from the amount of current needed to stabilize the heating element of the o2 sensors.

Shiv

dzenno · 06-24-2010, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Actually, it looks like it is calculated by the DME from the amount of current needed to stabilize the heating element of the o2 sensors.

Shiv

Doesn't that mean external EGT sensors tacked on post turbo would be much better (a lot more accurate) and instantaneous? Considering provede has a few free pins in the harness wouldn't it be great if there was an option to add these in for those of us that would like to do this? Im trying to protect my investment as best as i can..

cn555ic · 06-24-2010, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dzenno

Doesn't that mean external EGT sensors tacked on post turbo would be much better (a lot more accurate) and instantaneous? Considering provede has a few free pins in the harness wouldn't it be great if there was an option to add these in for those of us that would like to do this? Im trying to protect my investment as best as i can..

I guess your going the route of FBIS in terms of nitrous control and safety! I would think being that Shiv is always safety conscious with his tune that running nitrous off of Procede parameters will and totally safe and I also want protection on my investment and I feel VERY comfortable with the way Shiv will implement the nitrous into his tune!

shifterboy45 · 06-24-2010, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dzenno

Doesn't that mean external EGT sensors tacked on post turbo would be much better (a lot more accurate) and instantaneous? Considering provede has a few free pins in the harness wouldn't it be great if there was an option to add these in for those of us that would like to do this? Im trying to protect my investment as best as i can..

pre-turbo in the exhaust manifold is the most effective .....

closer to the exhaust port...

OpenFlash · 06-24-2010, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shifterboy45

pre-turbo in the exhaust manifold is the most effective .....

closer to the exhaust port...

Absolutely. But I doubt most people will want to install probes pre-turbo. A real PITA and not so great if it breaks and takes out the turbo. Definitely want to use high grade probes in that case. And install the probes when the turbos/manifold are out of the car.

Shiv

dzenno · 06-24-2010, 04:05 PM

Wouldnymt there be a window for our cars where EGTs would be considered safe within a certain temp range and then if it suddenly spikes (as a result of detonation, preignition, second uncontrolled flame front happening) that this could be picked up by an EGT probe installed pre-turbo and having it wired into a tune it would instantly cause boost and timing to droooppp..wouldn't this work as a good safety net for unchartered boost territory experimenting?

What's a good/high quality EGT probe that you'd recommend?

06-23-2010, 04:42 PM	#1
dzenno Banned 287 Rep 5,876 Posts Drives: Join Date: Feb 2006 iTrader: (1)	Procede safety systems - AFR and EGT sensors Shiv, is their safety logic in procede that monitors AFRs (wideband) and possibly feed in an external EGT signal from an EGT sensor(s) so it can address this as well?... i'm trying to think how to add more safety that would allow me/us to experiment with higher boost once my upgraded turbos are here while having all the safety required in place to back down on boost if required...would it be beneficial in getting standalone AFR/EGT sensors welded in and how would I hook those into procede? Just having gauges for these isn't sufficient for me..
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06-23-2010, 04:46 PM	#2
OpenFlash 1809 Rep 17,960 Posts Drives: A Lot Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: SF Bay, CA iTrader: (0) Garage List 2018 Ducati Panigal ... [0.00] 2016 Mazda CX5 [0.00] 2017 Aprilia Tuono ... [0.00] 2019 BMW M2 Competi ... [0.00] 2015 BMW M5 Competi ... [10.00] 2016 Ducati XDiavel S [0.00] 2016 AMG GT S [0.00] 2011 Ferrari 458 It ... [0.00] 2017 Charger Hellcat [0.00] 2015 KTM Super Duke ... [0.00] 2016 KTM RC390 [0.00]	Are you asking if you can hook up an EGT sensor directly to the Procede? And then have some sort of failsafe if EGTs get beyond a trigger point?
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06-23-2010, 05:08 PM	#3
dzenno Banned 287 Rep 5,876 Posts Drives: Join Date: Feb 2006 iTrader: (1)	Yes exactly. Also, same question for an AFR wideband sensor if I were to weld additional bungs on my DPs..How accurate is the current proceed wideband? Is that incorporated into the safety net somehow using some thresholds?
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06-23-2010, 05:25 PM	#4
BrianMN Banned 117 Rep 2,428 Posts Drives: 4 Door Family Sedan Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Minneapolis iTrader: (7)	That would be cool..I'm sure many people, including myself, would be very willing to weld in an EGT bung right after the turbos to monitor EGT.
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06-23-2010, 06:35 PM	#6
OpenFlash 1809 Rep 17,960 Posts Drives: A Lot Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: SF Bay, CA iTrader: (0) Garage List 2018 Ducati Panigal ... [0.00] 2016 Mazda CX5 [0.00] 2017 Aprilia Tuono ... [0.00] 2019 BMW M2 Competi ... [0.00] 2015 BMW M5 Competi ... [10.00] 2016 Ducati XDiavel S [0.00] 2016 AMG GT S [0.00] 2011 Ferrari 458 It ... [0.00] 2017 Charger Hellcat [0.00] 2015 KTM Super Duke ... [0.00] 2016 KTM RC390 [0.00]	To be honest, I don't think you will need either an add-on aftermarket AFR or a EGT gauge. We have already imported wideband lambda/AFR into the Procede's datalogging. All we need to do is correct it for the wideband bias that we apply with the tune and it will be just as accurate and fast responding as an aftermarket wideband gauge (I run a free-air calibrated innovative wideband in my car for testing/calibration). And you will have 1 for each of the two banks. As for EGT, we've been logging the bank1 and bank2 EGT channels from the CANbus. And they are also surprisingly fast-responding. In a 3rd gear pull, my car (in valet mode) goes from 300C to 700C which is spot on from what I'd expect from a traditional gauge mounted in the same location (post turbo). It should be just as accurate as any post-turbo mounted aftermarket EGT sensor when no cats are used (as I suspect will be the case for people running aftermarket turbos/high boost). So, in summary, save your money as you essentially have 2 WB AFR gauges an 2 EGT probes in your car as it is Shiv
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06-23-2010, 06:40 PM	#7
HB335 Private 7 Rep 72 Posts Drives: 335 Coupe Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: So Cal, CA iTrader: (0)	Sweet, That's good to know! __________________ E92 MT \| AR Catless DPs \| AE Exhaust w/ HFC \| Forge DVs \| Vishnu DCI & V3 Canbus \| Helix FMIC \| UUC SSK & DSSR \| 3M Crystalline Tint
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06-23-2010, 11:41 PM	#11
AltecBX Colonel 340 Rep 2,663 Posts Drives: BMW 335xi Sedan; BMW M3 ZCP Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: NYC iTrader: (0) Garage List 2018 BMW M3 ZCP [0.00] 2007 BMW 335Xi [0.00]	Why is EGT only mentioned when talking about diesel? Can the Vishnu meth kit be setup to spray after a certain EGT temperature or is this not a good scenario? __________________ 335xi Sedan 6AT \| Weather(70-85°F) \| N54 Tune Comparison Chart \|\| N54 Turbo Upgrade Comparison Chart -PROcede Rev. 2.5 ~ v5 (3/17 maps) / JB4 (8/21 maps) / COBB (Stg2+FMIC LT Aggressive maps) †Procede Map2(UT 45 - IGN 40) Aggression Target 2.0 \| 0-60 in 4.0sec \|\| †Cobb E30 LT (35% Ethanol/65% 93 Octane) \| 0-60 in 3.9sec AR Design Catless DP \| BMS DCI + OCC \| ETS 5 FMIC \| Alpina B3 Trans Flash \|235/265 19" Michelin PSS
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06-24-2010, 01:08 AM	#14
AltecBX Colonel 340 Rep 2,663 Posts Drives: BMW 335xi Sedan; BMW M3 ZCP Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: NYC iTrader: (0) Garage List 2018 BMW M3 ZCP [0.00] 2007 BMW 335Xi [0.00]	I would think is just as fast. My guess 1/32 of a sec (0.003 sec) __________________ 335xi Sedan 6AT \| Weather(70-85°F) \| N54 Tune Comparison Chart \|\| N54 Turbo Upgrade Comparison Chart -PROcede Rev. 2.5 ~ v5 (3/17 maps) / JB4 (8/21 maps) / COBB (Stg2+FMIC LT Aggressive maps) †Procede Map2(UT 45 - IGN 40) Aggression Target 2.0 \| 0-60 in 4.0sec \|\| †Cobb E30 LT (35% Ethanol/65% 93 Octane) \| 0-60 in 3.9sec AR Design Catless DP \| BMS DCI + OCC \| ETS 5 FMIC \| Alpina B3 Trans Flash \|235/265 19" Michelin PSS
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06-24-2010, 01:46 AM	#15
Prince ///M Second Lieutenant 4 Rep 200 Posts Drives: Join Date: Dec 2007 iTrader: (0)	In the past discussions (I asked sveral times info about egt with no answer) it was stated that the can bus value is CALCULATED from engine load with a thermal exchange model. In this case, due to the influence of piggybacks on signals read by the DME, this calculation would be very unaccurate. Btw, if such a sensor is actually installed on our car, it would be a great safety feature to implement a EGT dependent progressive boost taper.
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06-24-2010, 04:05 PM	#21
dzenno Banned 287 Rep 5,876 Posts Drives: Join Date: Feb 2006 iTrader: (1)	Wouldnymt there be a window for our cars where EGTs would be considered safe within a certain temp range and then if it suddenly spikes (as a result of detonation, preignition, second uncontrolled flame front happening) that this could be picked up by an EGT probe installed pre-turbo and having it wired into a tune it would instantly cause boost and timing to droooppp..wouldn't this work as a good safety net for unchartered boost territory experimenting? What's a good/high quality EGT probe that you'd recommend?
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