[tufgsd]

I did not see this article on this forum, so I figure I share it.

It was found on another forum, which I believe I cannot say, unless someone can correct me, i will post the link.

Anwaysm it gives a good arguement on what type of oil to use and brand.


Amsoil 0W-30 -- The great oil study
And why you should use it

(Part 1 of 2) (Part #1 - Data Only)

This information is provided as is. Feel free to interpret it as you see fit. It is for your own personal evaluation. The technical data is accurate to the best of my knowledge and is provided by the manufacturer and/or producer of the products in writing with few exceptions. If you have questions concerning this information, it is suggested you solicit expert opinion/s for confirmation before following any advice offered or using any of this information in whole or in part. The writer will explain some of the various technical "properties" for those readers not familiar with the terms.

Technical data will be furnished for the following "fully" synthetic oils (not listed in any particular order): Castrol "Syntech", Red Line, NEO, Mobil 1, Havoline "Formula 3 Synthetic", Quaker State "Synchron", Amsoil, Pennzoil "Performax 100 Synthetic" and Union 76 "76 NASCAR Synthetic".

Data will also be given for a single "blended" oil (mineral/petroleum and synthetic): Havoline "Formula 3 Synthetic Blend" as well as three pure mineral/petroleum oils: Havoline "Formula 3", Pennzoil "P7" and Pennzoil "Long Life". Also included is Mobil's Delvac 1 synthetic oil mostly used in diesel engines but favored by some for gas use. You will also see a Castrol 5W-40 synthetic oil which is available exclusively to VW and Audi dealers.

For the sake of time and space, abbreviations will be used to identify the oils and should be self explanatory; (example: AMS is Amsoil, HAV is Havoline and MOB is Mobil 1, etc.). In the few cases where the blended oil and the pure mineral/petroleum oils are listed, the following identification will be used; (HAV-B is Havoline Blended), (HAV-P is Havoline Petroleum), (P7 is Pennzoil with P7) and PEN-LL is Pennzoil Long-Life).

In the data you will see "N/A" which indicates the data was Not Available.

Not all SAE Viscosity Grades offered by the oil manufacturers/producers are listed. Only the grades which are considered common and popular. All oils are API Service Classification SJ or SJ/SH and the data is the most recent available.

Viscosity Grades listed will be: 0W-30, 5W-30, 5W-40, 5W-50, 10W-30, 10W-40, 15W-40 and 15W-50. There will be five categories of data, for each oil in the grade with explanations of the categories after the data results or on another posting. The categories will be: "VI" - Viscosity Index, HT/HS - High Temperature/High Shear, "WEAR" - 4-Ball Scar Test, "ASH" - Ash Content and "FLASH" - Flash Point in degrees F.


Grade: 0W-30
AMSOIL CASTROL MOBIL
VI:

188

181

176
HT/HS

3.5

3.1

3.4
WEAR:

.39

.47

.45
ASH:

N/A

.93

N/A
FLASH:

460

410

460

Grade: 5W-30
AMSOIL CASTROL HAVOLINE MOBIL NEO PENNZOIL QUAKER STATE REDLINE P7 HAV-P
VI:

197

172

160

162

170

166

151

165

160

159
HT/HS

3.5

3.0

3.07

3.35

3.3

3.3

3.2

3.6

3.1

3.2
WEAR:

.35

NA

NA

NA

NA

NA

NA

NA

NA

NA
ASH:

N/A

.93

N/A


.64


1.1



.85
FLASH:

442

455

468

445

430

435

435

455

420

410

GRADE: 5W-40
CASTROL HAVOLINE MOBIL
VI:

175

161

180
HT/HS

4.5

4.0

4.1
WEAR:

NA

NA

NA
ASH:

.90

1.1

1.3
FLASH:

405

453

446

Grade: 5W-50
CASTROL PENNZOIL QUAKER STATE
VI:

180

176

177
HT/HS

4.8

4.46

4.6
WEAR:

NA

NA

NA
ASH:

.93

NA

<1.0
FLASH:

465

447

457

Grade: 10W-30
AMSOIL CASTROL HAVOLINE MOBIL NEO PENNZOIL QUAKER STATE REDLINE UNI HAVOLINE-B P7 HAVOLINE-P
VI:

177

161

148

147

185

146

148

150

146

144

140

142
HT/HS

3.5

3.3

3.23

3.4

3.4

3.3

3.2

3.6

3.4

3.25

3.2

3.2
WEAR:

.35

NA

NA

NA

NA

NA

NA

NA

NA

NA

NA

NA
ASH:

N/A


1.1

.93

1.03


<1.0


1.1

.85


.85
FLASH:

446

455

482

470

470

460

440

475

480

425


420

Grade: 10W-40
AMSOIL CASTROL HAVOLINE MOBIL NEO PENNZOIL QUAKER STATE REDLINE UNI HAVOLINE-B P7 HAVOLINE-P
VI:
183 168 185 167 153 154
HT/HS
3.93 4.3 NA 4.7 3.7 3.9
WEAR:
.40
ASH:
.93 .64 .85
FLASH:
450 455 470 495 415 420

Grade: 15W-40

AMS: NEO-180, RED-155, PEN-LL-145
HT/HS: NEON/A, RED-5.5, PEN-LL-145
WEAR: RED-.22, Balance of oils-N/A.
ASH: NEO-1.12, RED-N/A, PEN-LL-1.4
FLASH: NEO-470, RED-495, PEN-LL-425


Grade: 15W-50

VI: MOB-160, RED-166
HT/HS: MOB-N/A, RED-5.6
WEAR: All oils-N/A.
ASH: All oils-N/A.
FLASH: MOB-473, RED-503

(END OF DATA) Part 1 of 2.

Bob ///M3

This is Part 2 of the oil study:

It is safe to say all modern engine oils are good; the mineral/petroleum oils, the "blended" and of course the synthetic oils. The synthetic oils are without a doubt the best. They do cost more, but they offer more too.

First, lets explain "viscosity" and "grade". Viscosity is a measure of the "flowability" of an oil. More specifically, it is the property of an oil to develop and maintain a certain amount of shearing stress dependent on flow, and then to offer continued resistance to flow. Thicker oils generally have a higher viscosity, and thinner oils a lower viscosity. This is the most important property for an engine. An oil with too low a viscosity can shear and lose film strength at high temperatures. An oil with too high a viscosity may not pump to the proper parts at low temperatures and the film may tear at high RPMs.

Explaining the numbers in the data:

"Viscosity Index" (ASTM D-2270) is an imperical number indicating the rate of change in viscosity of an oil within a given temperature range. HIGHER numbers indicate a low change, lower numbers indicate a relatively large change. The HIGHER the number the better. This is one major property of an oil that keeps the bearings happy! These numbers can ONLY be compared within a viscosity range. It is not an indication of how well the oil resists thermal breakdown.

HT/HS or "High Temperature/High Shear" (ASTM D-4683) is an rating that determines the oils stability in a high temperature, high stress conditions. The oil's ability to withstand shearing and tearing is very important especially in a high RPM engine. The oil's ability to protect bearings, cylinder walls and rings, connecting rod bearings, main bearings, cam lobes and lifters, etc. is vital to an engine. For an oil to pass the ASTM D-4683, an oil must have a protective viscosity of 2.9 cP at 302 degrees F. The HIGHER the number the better!

"Wear" is a "Four Ball Wear Test" (ASTM D-4172 and others) that is used to determine how a particular oil protects against surface scaring. Most tests are run using a 40kg weight at 75 degrees C rotating at either 1,200 rpm or 1,800 rpm for 1 hour. The depth of scare produced by this tests determines the oils wear test rating. Unfortunately, this test procedure is not required of most engine oils today and few producers still use the tests and publish their results. However, Amsoil and Red Line are proud of their "scar" test data and gladly offer it. A few other producers also have the data available for some of their oils. Look for oils that carry a SMALLER scar depth!

"Ash" (ASTM D-874) is the percentage of solid material sulfated ash (by weight) which is left when the oil burns. A high ash content will tend to form more sludge and deposits in the engine. Low ash content also seems to promote long valve life. Look for oils with a LOW ash content. Less than 1% maximum and the lower the better.

"Flash" (ASTM D-92) is the temperature at which an oil gives off vapors that can be ignited with a flame held over the oil. The lower the flash point the greater the tendency for the oil to suffer vaporization loss at high temperatures and to burn off on hot cylinder walls and pistons. The flash point can be an indicator of the quality of the base stock oil used. The HIGHER the flash point the better! 400 F is the minimum to prevent possible high consumption. The flash points shown in the data are in F.

I could have listed the various oil's zinc content, pour points, pumpability points, evaporation volatility, cold-cranking rating, corrosion fighting qualities, and so on but I felt the main topics were enough to raise an eyebrow.

So much for the data listed. Now for a few other interesting bits of information about engines oils.

Did you know that oil has a Ph? If the pH is too far out of wack, galvanic corrosion can eat things up! It's no different than a swimming pool's water becoming un-balanced at eating at the metallic parts of the pump, etc. In an engine, there is a microscopic variation of this called "fretting corrosion" that can get to parts that are in contact but move very little under quite a bit of pressure. That is what gives the odd stain patterns on shafts and surfaces that are together a long time. The pH of the oil is really affected by the water it picks up because water will react with gasses to form acids. That is why lots of short trips are bad, lots of blow-by and gasses and lots of moisture that does not have time to be driven out.

Oil starts a bit on the "basic" side and gets more acidic over time. I think they assume that most cars get a fair number of short trips. This is a bit of a problem for a farm tractor that doesn't get used too much since a "basic" pH will corrode aluminum and an acid will corrode zinc and iron. Ideally you could keep "half worn" oil all the time but you can't. Maybe this is truly a justification for not changing oil too frequently!

Did you know that an oil's "film strength" refers to the amount of pressure required to force out a film of oil from between two pieces of flat metal? The higher the film strength, the more protection is provided to such parts as piston rings, timing chain, cams, lifters and rocker arms...wherever the lubricate is not under oil-system pressure. Synthetic oils routinely exhibit a nominal film strength of well over 3,000 psi, while petroleum oils average somewhat less than 500 psi! The result is more protection between between moving parts with synthetic oils versus mineral/petroleum.

Did you know that contrary to what many take for granted, higher viscosity in and of itself does not translate into better engine protection. Extensive testing has shown the opposite to be in fact true. As long as a lower-viscosity oil is formulated to resist evaporation and provide high film strength, this lighter oil will actually deliver ,ore complete protection to the engine parts, since its more rapid circulation delivers both better lubrication per se, and far better cooling characteristics... a critical advantage, given that oil flow furnishes up to 30% of an engine's cooling requirements. In short, don't be too concerned with the relatively lower viscosity ratings of some synthetic oils. Synthetics are a whole different ball game from yesteryear's petroleums.

Did you know that our engines have temperatures in this range (F)?:
Upper Cylinder Wall 300-500
Exhaust Valve 1200-1500
Piston Crown 700-800
Hydraulic Valve Lifter 250-300
Crankcase 200-300
Top Piston Ring 300-650
Exhaust Gases 500-1000
Combustion Chamber 3000-5000
Coolant Jacket 165-230
Connecting Rod Bearings 200-375
Main Bearings 200-350

Other factors to consider when selecting an oil are the possible use of a light weight fast flowing oil to help prevent dry start-up damage even in warm climates. If you have an oil cooled turbocharger, look for a high flash point oil so coking of the oil will be reduced.

I might add that Red Line Oil Company was the most helpful in finding good quality information. They were also extremely proud of their oils in regard to still being effective at reduced friction (coefficient of friction) even after their oils had been used for 15,000 miles, comparing them to unused oils of other brands. Obviously the used oils had a certain amount of hydrocarbons in them which will cause extra wear. They are also the only oil producer I ran across that tests their oils under moderate loads (40g) and heavy loads (160g) in the wear tests and constantly compare their oils to other brands.

I would also like to say that all the engineers I spoke with at the various companies were more than willing to offer whatever help they could.

In closing I realize a lot of the information is actually too much information but hopefully those who enjoy this type of thing will get something out of it. I know I have. I have learned a lot more than I ever dreamed I would, however I'll be the first to admit, there's much, much more!

Like I said earlier, take this information for what's it's worth and good luck in your search for the best oil for your car's engine.....

Bob ///M3

This is another post that was made as a follow up to the two part engine oil study.

After analyzing all the data and discussing different oil properties and related subjects (that were not part of my "oil study") with some of the engineers at a few of the oil companies, I have made up my mind which oil I will be using in the M3.
My viscosity grade choices were the 0W-30, 5W-30, 5W-40, 10W-30 and 10W-40 oils. My "short list" choice of product manufacturers were Amsoil, Redline and Mobil.

I have elected to use Amsoil's 0W-30 oil.

The reasons for my choice are many.

In discussions with Mr. Darren Wallace (Technical Design Engineer and Chemist) of Amsoil Company, he suggested strongly I use the 0W-30 in the M3 for street and track. His suggestion rather surprised me! I asked him, "track too" and he said "most definitely." I will only lightly attempt to explain why he made his suggestion to me.

He explained that BMW engines, as are most others, had very tight engine tolerances for their bearings, etc. He said using the Amsoil 0W-30 would protect these bearings (and the entire engine) better than ANY 30 weight grade oil they have ever tested, including their other 30 weight multi-vis grade oils they offer. The anti-wear additive package for this 0W-30 oil, he said, is simply the best they have ever seen! The chemical make-up of the other Amsoil oils don't allow this same anti-wear package to be used. He also explained this particular oil is better at dealing with the contaminents (hydrocarbons left from combustion), dirt and corrosion, etc. than the other oils.

He said using the 0W-30 would offer unheard of protection at dry start-up where the anti-wear properties, only found in Amsoil's 0W-30, would virtually eliminate the metal-on-metal damage incurred when first cranking up an engine. He further explained that damage results whenever an engine is first cranked up, even if the ambient temperature is 100 degrees F.

There is much more to the anti-wear abilities of this "one oil" but I won't attempt to even try to cover it all. He did admit that no other oil that they have in their line of products, as good as they all are, has the characteristics, properties, abilities, traits and technology that the 0W-30 does. In fact, the way he put it was, "the Amsoil 0W-30 could be five years ahead of the competition!"

He also added that all 0W oils are more expensive to produce and this is the reason most other synthetic oil producers don't offer 0W oils. In the future, he said, this will change in his opinion.

Mr. Wallace further said that this oil is highly recommended not only for street use in the M3 but also in the most demanding and continuous high rpm, high temperature, high abuse conditions! He explained many SCCA entries (and other forms of racing) are using it. And that the oil's film-strength, shear/tear properties, anti-wiping protection, lubricating ability, engine cooling, etc. are the best.

Keep in mind that the second number of an oil's viscosity grade (30 in this case) is the steady weight of the oil when at 100 degrees C (212 degrees F) and it compares with any other 30 weight grade oil, in thickness, regardless whether it's a 0W-30, 5W-30 or 10W-30. This is a A.S.E standard test which must be passed to be called a particular viscosity grade oil. (Don't let the "0W" verses the more common 5W or 10W confuse you.) This particular oil's ability to remain a 30 weight oil in very abusive engine temperatures at well over 150 degrees C (302 degrees F) allows it to be a strong and safe oil for street, strip and track.

He explained that using a heavier weight oil is not necessary or desired "unless" the engine is built losely (with wide bearing tolerances) which BMW's engine's are not. Also, he stated that car manufacturer's recommendations for using a heavier "petroleum" based oil such as 15W-40 or 15W-50 was only recommended because of the protection those petroleum weight oils could offer. Using lighter synthetic oils in lieu of heavier petroleum based oils offers "more" engine protection while also offering better wear protection too. It's a win-win situation.

Anyway, for those who have asked me about which oil I intend on using in my M3, I have made my choice!

Bob ///M3

[cb1111]

Sigh - another "Amsoil developers know more about oil than the car manufacturers" thread.

Amsoil is not approved for used ANY European manufacturer and we only have their word for it that their stuff meets ANY requirements - this is the only factual statement that you'll read in the following threads that will support Amsoil.

[F32Fleet]

Good post.

[cb1111]

Originally Posted by Socom

Good post.

Correct - I'm assuming that you are refering to TrackRat's post

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by cb1111

Correct - I'm assuming that you are refering to TrackRat's post

Yep.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

He is and I thank him for it. Looks like he finally gave up the Tea Leaves and got a grip on reality. Ya can't deny reality forever. Even the flat earth society is beginning to have doubts...

http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...32#post7555732

Now don't start putting words in ones month. I never read the tea leaves to begin with.

[bulldog_yyc]

what about LL98 oil?

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

You weren't SMOKING them were you? Hey, I'm glad you've come back from the dark side!

Not even that. I'm just a firm believer that one has to read up on the oil standards (ACEA Ax/Bx Cx, LL01/LL04, VW 507, MB 229.5/.51). The ACEA standards address many attributes one of which is staying within grade for extended drain intervals. If shorter intervals (3k-5k OCI's) are not a goal then that opens up a lot more oils than one would normally consider.

This is why I've always said that you could run the appropriate weight dino oil in some of our cars every 3k-5k miles and not run into problems. Dino oil would not have the additive pack allowing it to meet long drain intervals, but that doesn't matter if you're not choosing to go long.

Sure the manufacturers have their own tweak to the ACEA min standards, but again those standards all revolve around extended drains. This is why I always thought it was idiotic for people to change their LL01 oil every 5k miles. It's akin to insisting one driving a Ferrari instead of riding your bicycle for the 1 mile commute to work.

[ENINTY]

TrackRat, you've emphatically stated to be an expert in the testing of oil performance in several car manufacturers’ engines. Can you please give your educated and expert position on BMW's extended drain intervals. Of all the posts I've read from you I have not seen you address this issue. Just curious. Thanks.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

Socom-

If we knew the true oil formulations and you could pick a proper oil for the application such as the LL-01 spec that was only good for a 5,000 mile OCI and then change it every 5K, that would be fine but there is no way to know this information so the only logical option is use the approved oil for the application.
.

Well the rub of course is that with ACEA A4/B3 as the min standard we'll never find a LL01 oil with a 5k mile OCI.

[ENINTY]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

BMW like all major car makers actually tests oils to determine which ones meet the engine's lubrication requirements for excellent performance and durability. They conduct scientific testing in the lab and real world driving. The specific type of oil and viscosity required is determined thru actual testing not speculation. Their OCI recommendations are based on typical consumer operation in normal environments and have been used for years in Europe before being implemented in the U.S. This testing is an ongoing process with new engines and lubricants because new engine requirements can change.

As noted in most OMs, in severe duty applications it might be necessary to change the oil more frequently. Typical severe use includes but is not limited to towing, mostly city driving, dusty environments, long idle periods, short runs in cold weather, etc.

There is a very easy means to determine the correct OCI for your engine and operation. A Used Oil Analysis will tell you if the oil is still serviceable and what contaminants are present. If the oil is still serviceable and the contaminant level reasonable, then the oil can be run for a longer drain interval. UOA is used in industry all the time to determine the safe OCI for everything from machinery to class 8 Diesel engines.

I have used and can recommend both Titan and Blackstone Labs for Used Oil Analysis. Both companies provide good service and consistent test results. There is no need to guess - just test and know for sure.

http://www.titanlab.com/content/insi...ducts/Oil.html

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

Sorry, but this is a lame response to my question; one that a Politician would give. Considering the CBS system is supposed to evaluate the condition of the oil based on an electrical analysis of the oil in the engine and by other data collected by the engine management system (fuel consumption, engine temperature, RPMs, etc.), the severe duty requirements are not relevant for BMW. The oil analysis method is a post-mortem process and is no indication on how the next fill of oil will properly lubricate or not lubricate the engine (believing that environmental conditions and vehicle operational use dictate conditions of oil service life).

So do you believe in BMW’s current CBS OCI of approximately 15,000 to 17,000 miles, or not?

[ENINTY]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

Eninty-

I answered your question but it looks like you don't like the answer? Yes I believe BMW's 15K OCI is appropriate for normal service operation. If you don't believe this is true then you should try UOA to determine if the oil is still serviceable at 15K for your engine and the operating environment. Either the oil is usable or it isn't. If the oil is good there is no issue. Obviously if you fear the oil won't make it to 15K then you test at 7.5K, then 10K, then 12.5K, then 15K assuming the oil continues to pass spec at each prior test.

I absolutely like the second answer because it is specific; the first answer wasn't. I follow the BMW CBS schedule and have for the three owned-since-new BMWs I've owned: a 1989 E30, a 1997 Z3 and a 2006 E90, with mileages of 295K, 140K, and 115K respectively. You have the laboratory testing experience and I have the real world driving maintenance experience of 34 years and 500K combined service life.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

Yes of course there is no oil with just A3/B4 approval that meets the LL-01 spec but your assumption that the latest oil standards are JUST for LongLife is not necessarily valid. The only way you would know is by actuallly conducting the LL-01 oil test sequence with whatever ACEA A3/B4 oils you liked and see how they perform at 7,500 miles. If they meet all LL-01 requirements other than a 15K OCI, then you're good to go - assuming the oil supplier doesn't change the chemistry down the road...

Actually longlife OCI's are a primary driver (sludge, TBN) resulting from new environmental regulations. Of course the ACEA test sequences continues to evolve every year with the addition of more stringent tests which revolve around sludge reduction, piston cleanliness, fuel economy, and emissions (2004 C1,C2,C3).

I think what you'll find is that LL01 no longer meets some portions of 2008 ACEA A3/B4 standard.

http://www.lubrizol.com/Products3column.aspx?id=34976

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/.../pc/index.html

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

Yes of course there is no oil with just A3/B4 approval that meets the LL-01 spec but your assumption that the latest oil standards are JUST for LongLife is not necessarily valid. The only way you would know is by actuallly conducting the LL-01 oil test sequence with whatever ACEA A3/B4 oils you liked and see how they perform at 7,500 miles. If they meet all LL-01 requirements other than a 15K OCI, then you're good to go - assuming the oil supplier doesn't change the chemistry down the road...

Actually longlife OCI's are a primary driver (sludge, TBN) which resulted from new environmental regulations. Of course the ACEA test sequences continues to evolve every year with the addition of more stringent tests which revolve around sludge reduction, piston cleanliness, fuel economy, and emissions (2004 C1,C2,C3).

I think what you'll find is that LL01 no longer meets some portions of 2008 ACEA A3/B4 standard.

http://www.lubrizol.com/Products3column.aspx?id=34976

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/.../pc/index.html

[ska///235i]

cb1111 & TrackRat
Both of you always jump on threads that relates to non-LL01 approve oils. Can you just make your own new thread rather than arguing on topics others like to see/discuss?
Seriously what is wrong with you?

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

Socom-


The ACEA A5/B5 and newer oil specs address high mpg oils and other issues as they are determined by the car makers to be important considerations from actual advanced engine testing. .

I was thinking of ACEA A3/B4. LL01 doesn't meet A3/B4 - 08 So one could suppose that if they bought oil which did meet the 2008 spec for ACEA A3/B4 then presence of LL01 would be for the most part a non-issue.

Just a thought.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

It is funny and SAD to read this stuff and realize how hoodwinked consumers can be when they only know enough info. to get in trouble.

How about, my local mechanic has been putting amsoil in european VW/Audi's for decades, and there has yet to be a single problem, with any engines he has serviced with the fluid? Its got to be better, than touting outdated BMW test sequences from 2001.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by ska325xi

cb1111 & TrackRat
Both of you always jump on threads that relates to non-LL01 approve oils. Can you just make your own new thread rather than arguing on topics others like to see/discuss?
Seriously what is wrong with you?

They have nothing better to do. They don't have proof that redline, royal purple, amsoil, or any number of high quality expensive synthetics currently in use, do anything bad to a BMW engine. Instead there are thousands of daily users of these oils on www.e46fanatics.com, with well over 150,000 miles on their engines, and no single incidents, even though their cars called for oils from a now outdated BMW test sequence.

[ska///235i]

these idiots probably change their oil at every 15000 miles as what BMW recommended and their cars are 100% bone stock. If they're not following this rule then all their saying are worthless.


FYI Amsoil is used in many race cars and have sponsorships. BMW does not approve only means there are no business relations it doesnt mean that Amsoil is bad oil. Know your facts before you post.

You call yourself "TrackRat" changing oil every 15000 miles, only use mobil, and castrol?
...Pshhhh you should rename to HoodRat

[ska///235i]

english is my 2nd language but I can understand the discussion here
there's really nothing too technical about engine oils

[cb1111]

Originally Posted by ska325xi

these idiots probably change their oil at every 15000 miles as what BMW recommended and their cars are 100% bone stock. If they're not following this rule then all their saying are worthless.


FYI Amsoil is used in many race cars and have sponsorships. BMW does not approve only means there are no business relations it doesnt mean that Amsoil is bad oil. Know your facts before you post.

You call yourself "TrackRat" changing oil every 15000 miles, only use mobil, and castrol?
...Pshhhh you should rename to HoodRat

Let's talk about racecars and sponsorships for a moment. Then, let's add oil into the mix.

Racing engines get rebuilt frequently. Nobody cares how long the engine lasts - as long as it makes it through that race.

Sponsorship merely means that a company has decided that it can get some cheap advertising by sponsoring a team. That says nothing about the quality of the product. Marlboro spent decades sponsoring racecars - does that mean that Marlboro is good for you?

I could sponsor a car with my "Maple syrup, sawdust and creamcheese" lubricant, but that doesn't tell you that it is actually good for the car.

Quite frankly, any modern lubricant will keep your car running for 30 or 40k miles. Manufacturers want to assure that your car lasts much longer so they've developed standards for oil to be used in their cars.

This whole oil discussion is silly as the facts are indisputable - if you value your warranty and longevity of your engine then you'll use the oil that meets the standards required by the manufacturer. If you don't care about either of those then you'll pour in the cheapest crap you can find - or not even bother changing the oil - your car will probably do 50k without self destructing on the factory fill. Why waste your money on relatively expensive stuff like Amsoil when it brings you no benefit and lots of disadvantages.

Since oil changes are covered by the manufacturer, why would anyone pay additional money to screw up their warranty and their car.

The times have changed since Jiffy-Lube coined their "every 3k" jingle.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

Hi Turkey-
I new you'd show up with words of WizDumb to enlighten everyone. Did you bring your data from the BMW LL-01 oil test sequence for Amsoil, Redline, Royal Purple and other NON-BMW approved oils that will void your new vehicle engine warranty for gas engines sold in the U.S. from 2006 onwards?.

Yes, I wouldn't advise using anything but dealership BMW LL01 oil in your warrantied vehicle, while still under the contract. We don't have a disagrement there. Just make sure that it is the BMW part number found under the hood of your car. There are different part numbers for Dealership "BMW LL01" synthetic oil. One lasted 3,000 miles in my car, before the useless oil analyzer said its was bad, and the dealership changed it, the other lasted 7,500 miles before starting to show degredation. Again, it must be the right part number. They all say BMW Synthetic.

Originally Posted by TrackRat

I'm still looking for the Great Amsoil Study that's suppose to be posted in this thread. Maybe it was deleted because I don't see any BMW LL-01 or ACEA A3/B4 or any other oil test sequence test data performed by anyone, let alone BMW. All I see is ad hype and speculation by some folks..

Amsoils defintion of synthetic, is vastly different from castrol, or mobil. I know you don't like discussing base oil science, because you are afraid of what it might reveal about some "LL01" oils. I have never tried amsoil, but they are a true PAO based synthetic (meaning the base oil, or 70% of the fluid is man made).

Originally Posted by TrackRat

As I have posted before, when Amsoil, Redline, Royal Purple, Slick Diddy and the rest have their oils tested by BMW and approved to LL-01 specs then we'll know they are safe and approved. Without actual LL-01 testing no one can tell you if these boutique oils are good, bad, or so-so for a BMW gas engine driven in the U.S.

true, but be careful how you bash these boutique oils, because they are FACT:

1. Very expensive
2. In wide use by some of the european car community, with no data showing that they are causing any damage.