Broken turbo? Shop says it is.

mkoesel · 07-01-2010, 02:29 PM

I just got off the phone with my local private BMW shop and the news isn't good. Apparently, they have concluded that the rattling noise that the car has been making was due to a failed turbo. I asked a lot of questions, including how they came to the conclusion. He said that it was a combination of the codes thrown, the engine light, the noise, and that the car feels slow.

I didn't notice the car feeling slower since the day we got it (almost four years ago now), except that it feels slower by comparison since I got my M3 (duh). As for the rattling sound, my understanding from reading these forums was that it is the wastegate. I am not sure how long it has been rattling, but it's been quite some time now. He expressed surprise that it could have been rattling for any length of time, since it would be something that would eventually - sooner than later - fail catastrophically (I.e. car would no longer run at all). He was surprised it could fail and still run, in fact. This is leads me back to the wastegate suspiscions. I know there was a software update that has caused the rattle for some cars and I was just assuming that this is all it was. As for the codes and CEL, well that's the exact same symptoms I got when the HPFP went, and I was assuming that it was going bad again.

I'm thinking a second opinion from another shop is my next step. I do trust these guys though, and have had nothing but good experiences. I just don't want to pay for the parts and labor and then have them take it all apart if it turns out its not going to be necessary. I am kicking myself for not doing something about the rattle when I first heard it, and before the warranty was up. I just didn't want to deal with the whole dealer run-around, and since the car was working fine I didn't want to fix something that's not broken. Lesson learned though - get the car inspected thoroughly by a reputable shop before the warranty is gone. And do this even if the car seems to be working fine.

But anyway, I am reaching out to the forum to see if anyone has ever heard of a turbo failure on a 335i. I searched and didn't find anything. And also, I am looking for opinions about the situation.

Parts and labor quote for the job is be $2k, BTW.

mkoesel · 07-01-2010, 02:33 PM

Hmm, tried different search terms ("failed turbo" instead of "broken turbo") and came up with some hits:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99388
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88108

enrita · 07-01-2010, 02:41 PM

Well if the wastegate does not close anymore and has too much play you can only replace the whole turbo. Happened to Bomis on the forum for example.

chromisdesigns · 07-01-2010, 03:17 PM

If it's throwing turbo codes, it's out of spec. There is some kind of adjustment they can do to the wastegate actuator arm, but it's limited. The standard dealer approach is to do a software update, then try to adust the actuator, and finally replace the turbo, if the other work doesn't fix the noise and stop the codes.

mkoesel · 07-01-2010, 03:33 PM

Thank you both for the help.

I am kicking myself even harder now, since I didn't realize that the wastegate problem could eventually lead to the turbos themselves needing to be replaced. After doing so more reading on the forum, I wish I'd paid a lot closer attention to this whole wastegate/turbo/software debacle.

Sounds like I need to find out what software I have. I've never heard of anyone getting a software update out of warranty. Assuming I need that done, I wonder how much they are going to charge. In fact, I wonder if they are even going to be open to updating the software in an out of warranty car.

._. · 07-01-2010, 03:35 PM

if you pay they will, probably charge their hourly rate. Just hope its not one of those overnight updates.

mkoesel · 07-01-2010, 04:02 PM

Aren't they basically all overnight now? From what I understand the update process is that ridiculously slow and complicated that it's going to take 8 hours plus no matter what. If they are going to charge me for the time the car sits there attached to the frickin computer, I am definitely not upgrading. I would rather try Mr. 5's solution, if it turns out I am post 29.2 and pre-35.x (or whichever one finally put everything back to way it should be).

I am just hoping at this point that my turbos themselves are still ok and that it's just the actuators that might need replacing, if anything.

nafoo · 07-01-2010, 04:06 PM

Sorry bro, when I took my car in for a rattling wastegate, they replaced both turbos...

RON1X · 07-01-2010, 04:10 PM

I was having bad WG rattle and took off all mods in preparation for new spark plugs at the dealer. The week before I took it in, everytime I throttled aggressively, the car gave the CEL. I was unable to get enough boost in the turbos (i.e. underboost) when i checked codes with the BT cable. My logic followed that it had to be because of the WG.

I took the car in and told them of the "metal rattle noise," and my CEL. They had the car for 4 days doing diagnostics. I was convinced I was getting new turbos. They called me and said that they did a DME software update and it went away, but did say the WG rattle was related to the CEL. My SA told me it is "regular" for there to be some WG rattle. I was pissed off, but didn't want to press the issue at the time, because I didn't want to set off any red flags because of modding etc.

My car is running well now (after the DME update) but I still have some WG rattle. When I put the procede back in, I actually got more rattle. I have driven the car hard to make sure that I am not underboosting again, and so far, the car is driving very well.

If I do have any more issues though, I will be raising hell about it to get new turbos.

dlbrooks18 · 07-01-2010, 04:39 PM

Definitely get a second opinion first, software updates may cure the problem

v300 · 07-01-2010, 05:27 PM

...I think an indication that a turbo's going bad is white smoke coming from the exhaust. That and the fumes will smell "rich."

Kbueno · 07-01-2010, 06:21 PM

Either way, whether it's rattling wastegates which will eventually fail, or a whining turbos, it will need replacement. Many suffer from rattling wastegates and have gone years with no performance issue, so go figure.

shifterboy45 · 07-01-2010, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Aren't they basically all overnight now? From what I understand the update process is that ridiculously slow and complicated that it's going to take 8 hours plus no matter what. If they are going to charge me for the time the car sits there attached to the frickin computer, I am definitely not upgrading. I would rather try Mr. 5's solution, if it turns out I am post 29.2 and pre-35.x (or whichever one finally put everything back to way it should be).

I am just hoping at this point that my turbos themselves are still ok and that it's just the actuators that might need replacing, if anything.

if the wastgates do not operate properly, the car has a hard time building boost. try the software update, it may just fix the problem.

current version out now is 2.38.1 (I-Level ID# E89x-10-06-501)

chromisdesigns · 07-01-2010, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I am just hoping at this point that my turbos themselves are still ok and that it's just the actuators that might need replacing, if anything.

I believe the wastegates are part of the turbo assembly and can't be replaced separately, which is why you see so many turbo replacements for this problem.

Jeff@TopGearSolutions · 07-01-2010, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chromisdesigns

I believe the wastegates are part of the turbo assembly and can't be replaced separately, which is why you see so many turbo replacements for this problem.

True story, one of the many ass-backwards things on this car....

Either the software fixes the wastegate issue, or the turbos need replacement generally since the watsegate and actuator are part of the turbo on this car.

mkoesel · 07-02-2010, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPSlick

True story, one of the many ass-backwards things on this car....

Either the software fixes the wastegate issue, or the turbos need replacement generally since the watsegate and actuator are part of the turbo on this car.

That sucks.

But, from reading some other threads, it sounded like some people were just replacing actuators themselves and not the entire turbo. I know that the actuator is not the same as the wastegate, but it sounds like just replacing the actuator has worked in some cases.

faded67 · 07-02-2010, 10:22 AM

I just had my actuator arms replaced and it solved all the issues. Initially BMW recommended to "adjust" the actuator arms. They can now be replaced according to http://www.bmwtis.com/tsb/bulletins/...p/B111307g.htm, AFTER trying the DME update first.

Not sure why I can't get the link to work, but its:

SIB 11 13 07

mkoesel · 07-02-2010, 10:38 AM

Thanks for the info faded67, hopefully I can do that and get this resolved without a complete turbo replacement. Even if I still get some rattle or whatever, that's fine. I just can't have the CEL coming on and have to worry about the car going into limp mode.

BTW, anyone know why it seems to usually just be the rear turbo wastegate that rattles? Some people get both replaced/serviced, but in most of the threads on the topic, it seems like just the rear is effected. And I've yet to find a single one where only the front was effected.

07-01-2010, 02:29 PM	#1
mkoesel Moderator 7544 Rep 19,366 Posts Drives: No BMW for now Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Canton, MI iTrader: (1)	Broken turbo? Shop says it is. I just got off the phone with my local private BMW shop and the news isn't good. Apparently, they have concluded that the rattling noise that the car has been making was due to a failed turbo. I asked a lot of questions, including how they came to the conclusion. He said that it was a combination of the codes thrown, the engine light, the noise, and that the car feels slow. I didn't notice the car feeling slower since the day we got it (almost four years ago now), except that it feels slower by comparison since I got my M3 (duh). As for the rattling sound, my understanding from reading these forums was that it is the wastegate. I am not sure how long it has been rattling, but it's been quite some time now. He expressed surprise that it could have been rattling for any length of time, since it would be something that would eventually - sooner than later - fail catastrophically (I.e. car would no longer run at all). He was surprised it could fail and still run, in fact. This is leads me back to the wastegate suspiscions. I know there was a software update that has caused the rattle for some cars and I was just assuming that this is all it was. As for the codes and CEL, well that's the exact same symptoms I got when the HPFP went, and I was assuming that it was going bad again. I'm thinking a second opinion from another shop is my next step. I do trust these guys though, and have had nothing but good experiences. I just don't want to pay for the parts and labor and then have them take it all apart if it turns out its not going to be necessary. I am kicking myself for not doing something about the rattle when I first heard it, and before the warranty was up. I just didn't want to deal with the whole dealer run-around, and since the car was working fine I didn't want to fix something that's not broken. Lesson learned though - get the car inspected thoroughly by a reputable shop before the warranty is gone. And do this even if the car seems to be working fine. But anyway, I am reaching out to the forum to see if anyone has ever heard of a turbo failure on a 335i. I searched and didn't find anything. And also, I am looking for opinions about the situation. Parts and labor quote for the job is be $2k, BTW.
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07-01-2010, 02:33 PM	#2
mkoesel Moderator 7544 Rep 19,366 Posts Drives: No BMW for now Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Canton, MI iTrader: (1)	Hmm, tried different search terms ("failed turbo" instead of "broken turbo") and came up with some hits: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99388 http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88108
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07-01-2010, 02:41 PM	#3
enrita Major General 161 Rep 7,377 Posts Drives: 335i - Big turbos Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Italian in Sweden iTrader: (0)	Well if the wastegate does not close anymore and has too much play you can only replace the whole turbo. Happened to Bomis on the forum for example. __________________ 07 335i AT - MOTIV 750 - MHD E85 BMS flash - BMS PI - JB4G5 - Okada Coils - NGK 5992 Plugs - Helix IC - Snow Stg. 3 - Stett CP - Custom midpipes with 100 HJS Cats - Bastuck Quad - PSS10 - QUAIFE LSD - BMS OCC - Forge DVs - AR OC - ALCON BBK - M3 Chassi - Dinan CP - Velocity M rear Toe arms - Advan RZ-DF - LUX H8 - Level 10 AT upgrade
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07-01-2010, 03:17 PM	#4
chromisdesigns Lieutenant Colonel 45 Rep 1,753 Posts Drives: 2008 BMW 335i sedan Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: San Francisco iTrader: (0)	If it's throwing turbo codes, it's out of spec. There is some kind of adjustment they can do to the wastegate actuator arm, but it's limited. The standard dealer approach is to do a software update, then try to adust the actuator, and finally replace the turbo, if the other work doesn't fix the noise and stop the codes.
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07-01-2010, 03:33 PM	#5
mkoesel Moderator 7544 Rep 19,366 Posts Drives: No BMW for now Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Canton, MI iTrader: (1)	Thank you both for the help. I am kicking myself even harder now, since I didn't realize that the wastegate problem could eventually lead to the turbos themselves needing to be replaced. After doing so more reading on the forum, I wish I'd paid a lot closer attention to this whole wastegate/turbo/software debacle. Sounds like I need to find out what software I have. I've never heard of anyone getting a software update out of warranty. Assuming I need that done, I wonder how much they are going to charge. In fact, I wonder if they are even going to be open to updating the software in an out of warranty car.
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07-01-2010, 03:35 PM	#6
._. Colonel 77 Rep 2,353 Posts Drives: BMW Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Miami iTrader: (15)	if you pay they will, probably charge their hourly rate. Just hope its not one of those overnight updates.
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07-01-2010, 04:02 PM	#7
mkoesel Moderator 7544 Rep 19,366 Posts Drives: No BMW for now Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Canton, MI iTrader: (1)	Aren't they basically all overnight now? From what I understand the update process is that ridiculously slow and complicated that it's going to take 8 hours plus no matter what. If they are going to charge me for the time the car sits there attached to the frickin computer, I am definitely not upgrading. I would rather try Mr. 5's solution, if it turns out I am post 29.2 and pre-35.x (or whichever one finally put everything back to way it should be). I am just hoping at this point that my turbos themselves are still ok and that it's just the actuators that might need replacing, if anything.
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07-01-2010, 04:06 PM	#8
nafoo Major 48 Rep 1,145 Posts Drives: Boosted Bimmer Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Earth iTrader: (15)	Sorry bro, when I took my car in for a rattling wastegate, they replaced both turbos...
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07-01-2010, 04:10 PM	#9
RON1X Colonel 76 Rep 2,491 Posts Drives: 991 C2S Guards Red Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Nashville, TN iTrader: (8) Garage List 2008 E92 M3 [9.00]	I was having bad WG rattle and took off all mods in preparation for new spark plugs at the dealer. The week before I took it in, everytime I throttled aggressively, the car gave the CEL. I was unable to get enough boost in the turbos (i.e. underboost) when i checked codes with the BT cable. My logic followed that it had to be because of the WG. I took the car in and told them of the "metal rattle noise," and my CEL. They had the car for 4 days doing diagnostics. I was convinced I was getting new turbos. They called me and said that they did a DME software update and it went away, but did say the WG rattle was related to the CEL. My SA told me it is "regular" for there to be some WG rattle. I was pissed off, but didn't want to press the issue at the time, because I didn't want to set off any red flags because of modding etc. My car is running well now (after the DME update) but I still have some WG rattle. When I put the procede back in, I actually got more rattle. I have driven the car hard to make sure that I am not underboosting again, and so far, the car is driving very well. If I do have any more issues though, I will be raising hell about it to get new turbos. __________________ 991.1 C2S PDK, Guards Red \| PDCC \| Sport Chrono + \| Clear Tail Lights \| Alcantara Steering Wheel \| HRE FF01 \| TechArt Springs \| Sport Exhaust Previous: Porsche 997 Turbo 6MT, Atlas Gray \| Cobb Stage 2 \| HRE FF01 \| Europipe Stg. 2 Exhaust \| GMG LMS Rollbar \| GT2 Exhaust Tips \| Pagid RS-29 \| Rennline Pedals \| SSK 997.2 Track Car, heavily modded & E92 M3 DCT, still miss her daily & E92 335i heavily modded
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07-01-2010, 04:39 PM	#10
dlbrooks18 Brigadier General 164 Rep 3,735 Posts Drives: e90 335i Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Los Angeles iTrader: (2)	Definitely get a second opinion first, software updates may cure the problem __________________ 2008 E90 335
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07-01-2010, 05:27 PM	#11
v300 First Lieutenant 25 Rep 355 Posts Drives: '11 335is DCT Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: (north) Fullerton, CA iTrader: (12)	...I think an indication that a turbo's going bad is white smoke coming from the exhaust. That and the fumes will smell "rich." __________________ V300 '11 BSM 335is '08 Tiag 335i Coupe w/ Active Steering SOLD
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07-01-2010, 06:21 PM	#12
Kbueno Lieutenant Colonel 101 Rep 1,712 Posts Drives: F82 Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: California iTrader: (5)	Either way, whether it's rattling wastegates which will eventually fail, or a whining turbos, it will need replacement. Many suffer from rattling wastegates and have gone years with no performance issue, so go figure.
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07-02-2010, 10:22 AM	#17
faded67 Private First Class 3 Rep 128 Posts Drives: 2007 AW 335i Sedan Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Reston, VA iTrader: (1) Garage List 2007 335i [0.00]	I just had my actuator arms replaced and it solved all the issues. Initially BMW recommended to "adjust" the actuator arms. They can now be replaced according to http://www.bmwtis.com/tsb/bulletins/...p/B111307g.htm, AFTER trying the DME update first. Not sure why I can't get the link to work, but its: SIB 11 13 07
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07-02-2010, 10:38 AM	#18
mkoesel Moderator 7544 Rep 19,366 Posts Drives: No BMW for now Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Canton, MI iTrader: (1)	Thanks for the info faded67, hopefully I can do that and get this resolved without a complete turbo replacement. Even if I still get some rattle or whatever, that's fine. I just can't have the CEL coming on and have to worry about the car going into limp mode. BTW, anyone know why it seems to usually just be the rear turbo wastegate that rattles? Some people get both replaced/serviced, but in most of the threads on the topic, it seems like just the rear is effected. And I've yet to find a single one where only the front was effected.
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