[wayne71]

A few months after having a remap I'm still quite wary of my 335D.

On anything other than a perfectly dry smooth road Its pretty worrying when you floor it.

Today for example, slightly damp road conditions and around 6-7 degrees I was doing around 15mph , went to overtake a slow vehicle and put my foot down (not as far as kick down and not in sports mode), the back end just kicked out and scared the crap out of me.

No driver aids had been switched off and I'm driving on Michelin pilot sport RFT with plenty of tread (soon to be changed to non RFT).

Its happened a few times and I'm starting to wonder if maybe the remap is too much for the car (or me), then I see some of you guys with 400+bhp 335i's and wonder how the hell you cope.

Have any of you guys/girls with remapped 335D experienced these problems and can anyone suggest somewhere I can go in the northwest to test and get used to the limits of car?

[wza]

I have 335i, no remaps though, my old car was a 350z, so similar power, however, have had the back end step out on the BMW many more times than the Nissan, even when only slightly damp/wet roads, has also scared me a few times, especially when overtaking like you mentioned.

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by wayne71

A few months after having a remap I'm still quite wary of my 335D.

On anything other than a perfectly dry smooth road Its pretty worrying when you floor it.

Today for example, slightly damp road conditions and around 6-7 degrees I was doing around 15mph , went to overtake a slow vehicle and put my foot down (not as far as kick down and not in sports mode), the back end just kicked out and scared the crap out of me.

No driver aids had been switched off and I'm driving on Michelin pilot sport RFT with plenty of tread (soon to be changed to non RFT).

Its happened a few times and I'm starting to wonder if maybe the remap is too much for the car (or me), then I see some of you guys with 400+bhp 335i's and wonder how the hell you cope.

Have any of you guys/girls with remapped 335D experienced these problems and can anyone suggest somewhere I can go in the northwest to test and get used to the limits of car?

The problem is that it's cold, damp, and your car has HUGE amounts of torque!! It's supremely easy to spin up the rear wheels if you're not careful, although in reality as long as you are progressive with the throttle there's not really much danger, especially in a straight line.

If you want to develop your awareness and understanding of how your own car works, I suggest you contact Carolyn Barker at Driver Development Programme (www.driverdp.com) and book a day's instruction with her. The instruction takes place at the Prodrive facility in Warwickshire (just off the M40) and is really great. The best bit is the wet skid facility - great fun and teaches a lot about how to control the rear end of a car...

[NFS]

In stock form both the 335i and the 335d have sufficient power to overwhelm the chassis.

A re-mapped 335d has pretty stunning amounts of torque, which means that power oversteer has to be managed.

If you are losing rear end traction, then you are using too much throttle. You have a very powerful car and you can't assume that all of that power can be safely used all of the time. The throttle pedal needs to be used progressively and not like an 'on / off' switch.

As Tony says this will be particularly problematic at the moment on wet roads at low temperatures where your tyres can't get to operating temperature. Winter tyres will help with this, but it will also be helpful to understand how cars react at the limits of handling.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by wayne71

A few months after having a remap I'm still quite wary of my 335D.

On anything other than a perfectly dry smooth road Its pretty worrying when you floor it.

Today for example, slightly damp road conditions and around 6-7 degrees I was doing around 15mph , went to overtake a slow vehicle and put my foot down (not as far as kick down and not in sports mode), the back end just kicked out and scared the crap out of me.

No driver aids had been switched off and I'm driving on Michelin pilot sport RFT with plenty of tread (soon to be changed to non RFT).

Its happened a few times and I'm starting to wonder if maybe the remap is too much for the car (or me), then I see some of you guys with 400+bhp 335i's and wonder how the hell you cope.

Have any of you guys/girls with remapped 335D experienced these problems and can anyone suggest somewhere I can go in the northwest to test and get used to the limits of car?

Several issues:

Tyres....summer tyres do not work well at 6-7 degrees. The rubber becomes hard and glassy and grip is severely diminished
Remap....with a remap you're in the hands of whoever wrote the SW...so the torque delivery profile may be very different and instead of being smooth and linear, is a more stepwise affair, which will easily break traction when sudden increases in torque hit the driven wheels. Its very easy to get more HP from a turbo engine, just hold the wastegate shut longer and hey-presto!
Road surface....you've absolutely no idea how much traction the road surface offers...you say damp, which means there was water on the surface...if this is mixed with oils that ooze from the bitumen, pollutants from car engines and maybe diesel or petrol deposited over weeks without heavy rain you've got a very low traction situation (which is exactly why traction control is so important).
Combine all 3 and you're right to be cautious...you're driving a reprogrammed car that 'bytes' (sorry!)

[rsmallwo]

bin the runflats to start with......winter tyres help alittle.

You have bought your car at the wrong time of year really, no point having a 335d for 4 months of the year as getting power down is difficult. Once you get to Spring/Summer/Autumn you will get alot more smiles out of her!!

You can still blast it on motorway mind

[wayne71]

Thanks for the replies.

It seems a combination of a few factors then really, my driving ability, summer tyres, road conditions and a remapped car.

I've driven a few fairly powerful FWD and RWD cars and never had the same fear I have driving this.

Thanks for the tip on advanced driving school, its something I really need to do although I got a bit of a shock when I saw the prices!

[wayne71]

Originally Posted by rsmallwo

bin the runflats to start with......winter tyres help alittle.

You have bought your car at the wrong time of year really, no point having a 335d for 4 months of the year as getting power down is difficult. Once you get to Spring/Summer/Autumn you will get alot more smiles out of her!!

You can still blast it on motorway mind

I did have it last summer and even then it gave me a few surprises after getting it mapped!

I'm still on run flats because I made the mistake of dithering over whether to buy winters or not, by the time I decided I wanted them they had all but gone and the few that are left have shot up in price.

So I'm struggling through using a combination of snow socks the wives car or public transport for this winter and I'll be fitting summer non RFT pretty soon.

[briers]

Everything has been covered already

The cold/damp makes it pretty ropey, same for me. Best thing you can do is, if in D, flick the paddle to change down and accelerate gradually.

There is a massive retardation in power between this and a dry day with DTC partially off. Just bite your lip and wait for the drier weather before gunning it.

[ALF_E90]

I agree with what has been said. Quick cars require a lot more respect for the throttle, especially with RWD, and especially in winter. Most people's first few cars these days are FWD with a very low power/weight ratio and allow the throttle to be mashed to the floor pretty much any time when underway without upsetting the car - indeed many modern RWD cars are in a similar camp as they have insufficient power/weight to be easily upset considering their good grip and electronic safety systems.

With a car with a higher power/weight ratio or limited grip, especially RWD, never open the throttle more while increasing steering lock, and always be wary of opening the throttle more when cornering at all, even when not increasing the steering lock. If you imagine the throttle and steering are connected then that helps you increase the throttle position as you wind off steering lock, not before.

I was petrified when I got my first track car (Caterham Academy - not that quick but very limited grip) and had to really adjust my driving to suit - it could go very very fast round a track but only driven with constant attention to this relationship between throttle and steering position. Floor the throttle at the same time as starting to steer right to pull out to overtake something, and you could be spinning before you knew what was happening. Classic RWD accident...

[HighlandPete]

Most has been said, but also remember wide tyres in damp conditions are also another factor that reduces grip.

Anyone with experience of having a wide tyred FWD hot hatch, and standing at the lights... goes green and a small hatch on 155 section tyres gets away faster? Yes it shows the simple principle that power isn't always an advantage over grip.

Overwhelmed chassis... and limitations, it's always been this way. E30 anyone? Had to be driven with respect.


HighlandPete

[ed335d]

Originally Posted by E92Fan

If you want to develop your awareness and understanding of how your own car works, I suggest you contact Carolyn Barker at Driver Development Programme (www.driverdp.com) and book a day's instruction with her. The instruction takes place at the Prodrive facility in Warwickshire (just off the M40) and is really great. The best bit is the wet skid facility - great fun and teaches a lot about how to control the rear end of a car...

With a testimonial from our very own Palmnuts too...

I quite fancy that course. I have a twitchy back end (in both senses), both from applying too much power coming off roundabouts. Both times have been in the first dewy type damp after a dry spell, which is particularly greasy.

[Hotcoupe]

Originally Posted by wayne71

I've driven a few fairly powerful FWD and RWD cars and never had the same fear I have driving this.

I think you need to turn the fear into respect, and don't be so hard on yourself in doubting your own ability.

I'm guessing that most who drive the more powerful variants out there, mapped or not, have experienced the rear end twitch resulting in a near brown trouser moment!

As others have said, damp roads, low temps, the wrong tyres (in both respects) for the time of year and crazy amounts of torque can make for a less than pleasurable drive.
On the other hand learning how best to cope with all the above will result in loads of fun, albeit in the right places

Originally Posted by ed335d

I have a twitchy back end which is particularly greasy.

It's not been that long since you saw Will has it?

[seamaster]

In the warm weather I can just about accept the ride performance and grip with run flats, ( if you have ever owned an Audi A2 you could understand that last statment) but since the weather has changed and it is alot colder the ride has got alot harsher and crashy, rear wheel spins are a regular occourance.

[Em135eye]

Had a few fishtailing moments - most just made me grin, a couple made me wince.

Even a stock 335d has Vanquish beating torque - easily enough to overwhelm the tyres.

My hesitation with remapping have always been that I think the chassis is pushed enough with stock power. Easy to remap any turbo'd car but unless you adapt the chassis and brakes, it's easy to mess up a well balanced motor.

IMO only - most sing the praises of remaps.

[kaishang]

Interesting thread. From the point of view of an Australian: the biggest selling car in Australia for decades has been the Holden Commodore. A large, 6-cylinder, powerful RWD car with a lot of torque. Oz is one of the few markets in the world where the two big selling mass market cars (the Holden Commodore and Ford Falcon) are RWD. Until recent years, like most cars, the Commodore had no traction control or DSP-like system. A lot of people leaned to drive on these and they appeal to young drivers, because there are a bazillon of them and they are cheap.

Basically, if the road is slippery, don't plant the accelerator. Use gentle throttle when accelerating through curves. Flooring it to turn off a wet side street onto a main road or on a roundabout is asking for trouble. And if you do start to lose the back end, ease off the throttle and it will straighten up.

Another thing is what rpm are you doing when you floor it? If your revs are low and you are a bit below your powerband, if the driving wheels break traction due to over-application of throttle then all of a sudden you are in the middle of your powerband and things come really unstuck. If you break traction with higher revs, then a lot less will happen.

[DavS1]

My old 200sx (450bhp) used to step out at 85mph in 5th gear in the damp on part throtle, shi*BEEP*

[FPO]

Originally Posted by E92Fan

The problem is that it's cold, damp, and your car has HUGE amounts of torque!! It's supremely easy to spin up the rear wheels if you're not careful, although in reality as long as you are progressive with the throttle there's not really much danger, especially in a straight line.

If you want to develop your awareness and understanding of how your own car works, I suggest you contact Carolyn Barker at Driver Development Programme (www.driverdp.com) and book a day's instruction with her. The instruction takes place at the Prodrive facility in Warwickshire (just off the M40) and is really great. The best bit is the wet skid facility - great fun and teaches a lot about how to control the rear end of a car...

Tony, did you really just say that!
Your recommending us men to pay a woman a considerable sum to teach us how to drive?

I never thought I would see the day.

Tongue in cheek with that one.

Im just waiting for Beemerbird to throw me one of these:

Anyhow, Tony did you feel the benefits outweighed the cost (and embarrassment) of the instruction? hehe

To add to the OP, its quite a bad time of year for us 335d boys as the little cars can easily beat us away (initially) from the lights atm because traction is nigh on impossible if you try a spirited get away.

Like when the Top Gear boys recently tried using their supercars
(Merc SLS, Porc GT3RS and Ferrari 458) at the dragstrip in the States in the wet. If you havent seen it, do so!

However our dominance takes over again after 40 mph though ha.

Try getting an LSD fitted, that may help things somewhat.
See E92Fan's LSD Review below his post. Interesting read anyhow.

P.S. Always wondered is that you in your icon pic Tony or someone you'd like to be?

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by FPO

....To add to the OP, its quite a bad time of year for us 335d boys as the little cars can easily beat us away (initially) from the lights atm because traction is nigh on impossible if you try a spirited get away.

Like when the Top Gear boys recently tried using their supercars
(Merc SLS, Porc GT3RS and Ferrari 458) at the dragstrip in the States in the wet. If you havent seen it, do so!

However our dominance takes over again after 40 mph though ha.

But also remember, even then, your torque can get you into more trouble than the 'little cars'.

HighlandPete

[Captain SlowCoach]

Just enjoy the fun!

Get on a course to learn how to deal with it properly. . . and then go play!

Nothing quite like fishtailing down the road as you set on with purpose . . .

Regards
Captain SC

[m1bjr]

Originally Posted by wayne71

I see some of you guys with 400+bhp 335i's and wonder how the hell you cope.

LSD

Everything looks awesome man.
Even sideways on.

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by FPO

Tony, did you really just say that!
Your recommending us men to pay a woman a considerable sum to teach us how to drive?

I never thought I would see the day.

Tongue in cheek with that one.

Im just waiting for Beemerbird to throw me one of these:

Yes, I really did

I met Carolyn at the 'Ring a few years ago and she invited me to go visit her at Prodrive to see the facilities and have a look at the test circuits. At the time I was setting up the suspension on my car the first time round, and I was looking for a wet track to fine tune the rear end response of the car. Carolyn said the low grip surface at Prodrive would be the most suitable for testing on, so I took her up on her offer and went to try.

Originally Posted by FPO

Anyhow, Tony did you feel the benefits outweighed the cost (and embarrassment) of the instruction? hehe

I met four people whilst I was there and they were all on the DDP training course. Without exception they all said the benefit of really understanding how their various cars handled far outweighed the not insignificant cost of a day's instruction. From talking to Carolyn and the other instructors, and seeing how they put drivers through their paces on a variety of test circuits and surfaces, I would say that the DDP course is VERY good and looks good value, even at £380 a day or whatever it is now.

Originally Posted by FPO

P.S. Always wondered is that you in your icon pic Tony or someone you'd like to be?

Uh, that is me