New member here, need some opinions on purchase.

My335XI · 01-17-2011, 04:14 PM

Hi gentlemen (and ladies). Back at the end of November I purchased a 07 335XI sedan CPO with 44K from a local dealer here in Toronto.

To preference my story let me begin by stating that last spring I sold my 2000 Porsche 996 and when the lease came up on my DD I wanted something that would be both powerful and functional for a family.

I negotiated what I thought was a fair price as the in service date was Sept 07 so there was still factory warranty left plus 2 years CPO. The salesman assured me the car was never in an accident and provided me with the CarProof report which was clean. I asked for a service history report which took more than 24 hours to provide but it was emailed to me and I didn't see anything major except the cars last oil change was at 24,xxx. I mentioned that it looked like it needed an oil change, and I was assured if it did it would get one.

On delivery the advisor was showing me the functions of the cars computer. We started it up and the snowflake icon came on, and then disappeared. I then noticed the "!" icon on the dash. I questioned the DA on why this was on. His answer was that it was warning me of the outside temp. I thought it was odd but okay, I mean he would know.

I happily drove off, in my new, used BMW. Now this is where it gets interesting.

As the weather warmed up a little in early Dec the light was still on, but I was not getting the snowflake icon. So I opened the manual to try to discover what was going on. Within 5 minutes I've done a check and it turns out the washer fluid is low. This had me mildly upset as I thought they would have topped up all fluids prior to delivery. So I fill it up and the icon goes away. Now I park the car for a few weeks in the garage as we take a family vacation. On returning I take the car out to run some errands and as I'm walking up to the car I notice that the rubber on the inside wheel well on the drivers side is pulling away from the frame to the point where some of the rivets are broken. To be honest I cannot be sure whether it was there prior to when I took delivery or not, but I can promise I did not do anything that would have caused it. Even worse the "!" icon is back, now telling me the oil is low. I email my salesperson and ask for a copy of the CPO checklist, within a few hours I get a call from him asking what the issues are. He apologies and says that the oil does not need changing even though it's been 20 months since it was last done. He proceeds to claim there is no CPO inspection documentation, just a checklist, but get this, he proceeds to tell me all the hail damage was fixed. When I responded what hail damage was he referring to he said the 18 dents that they had repaired. I told him he never disclosed this to me and it was the first I was hearing of it. He was at a loss and kept saying it was never in any accidents, just hail damage. To be honest if I knew this, I probably still would have purchased the car, but I would have tried to use it as leverage to get a little better price.

Frustrated I hung up and called back to speak with a service manager. Of course he was able to send me the CPO report I was looking for. I also mentioned to him about the 20 months without an oil change and he apologized and suggested I make an appointment ASAP to have it done.

After looking at the service report it says the rear brakes are at 7mm, I believe at 6mm they have to be replaced them to be CPO'd. This sure seems like they were cutting it close.

Sorry about the long winded first message, I was just wondering what other members here think about this whole experience.

Thanks!

bobblehead · 01-17-2011, 04:23 PM

Sorry to hear your not-so smooth purchase experience.

Now, you may be stuck with the brake replacement job which may cost over $1000. In addition, you should also ask whether all other fluids (brakes, tranny, differential) have been replaced as well.

MOAB · 01-17-2011, 04:37 PM

Just curious... Which dealer did you buy from? I have my own suspicions.

My335XI · 01-17-2011, 04:54 PM

I left the dealers name out for now, but I have only read good things about them, nothing negative. I just want to know if I have any recourse on the prior damage as they did know about it but failed to disclose it.

MOAB · 01-17-2011, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by My335XI

I left the dealers name out for now, but I have only read good things about them, nothing negative. I just want to know if I have any recourse on the prior damage as they did know about it but failed to disclose it.

normally the doctrine of 'caveat emptor' applies. That said, if they knew about undislosed damage that was not visible (i.e. a latent defect) and they did not tell you, I would argue fraud on their behalf. From what you have indicated, if the hail damage has been fixed, then it looks slippery on them for not disclosing the prior history to you vis a vis the hail damage, but you have no "damages" to go after them with respect to the hail.

Me_Hi · 01-17-2011, 09:33 PM

Sorry to hear that OP but dealers are the worst.
I took delivery of my car with bold non winter run flats in the middle of a winter storm. I couldn't even get out of the parking lot and I had to wait for the next day. The salesman was nowhere to be found that evening and the next day when I purchased the car he said the tires passed the inspection. I told him look at the CCTV from last night to see me trying to get out of the parking lot.
Next time I will only sign papers when I can see with my own eyes they've done the work needed on that car.

My335XI · 01-17-2011, 10:55 PM

I was about to send the salesman another email to express my disappointment when I came across his original email to me which had 14 pictures of the car. I was able to zoom in on one and the wheel well damage was there! I took a screen shot and circled it with MS paint and emailed it back to him along with the CPO inspection document that he claimed didn't exist.

I have requested a meeting with SM, or even GM to see what can be done to rectify the situation.

Do they even look at a car before they CPO it?

Thussy · 01-18-2011, 03:19 PM

That's a good question...

BMW Waterloo right now is looking at the lease return auctions for a car in the paint/package combination that I would like. The sales person was saying how not all lease returns at the auction can be CPO'd. I would assume they purchase on risk and hope that it meets the CPO "standards" (I think this is how it works as some dealerships sell CPO and non-CPO). They have an incentive to sell the cars as CPO as they can demand a higher price.

If I were in your position (and who knows, I may very well be soon), I would use what you discovered as leverage to have the car re-checked, and anything "border line" fixed.

Does anyone have the "checklist" that they use? The difference between 7mm and 6mm is so close that I would have wanted to take it into an indy dealer to confirm its condition.

ChickenFriedRice · 01-18-2011, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by My335XI

I was about to send the salesman another email to express my disappointment when I came across his original email to me which had 14 pictures of the car. I was able to zoom in on one and the wheel well damage was there! I took a screen shot and circled it with MS paint and emailed it back to him along with the CPO inspection document that he claimed didn't exist.

I have requested a meeting with SM, or even GM to see what can be done to rectify the situation.

Do they even look at a car before they CPO it?

Back when I was looking in the summer, I almost purchased a CPO'd car from Town+Country BMW. The deal fell through because someone else was able to put their deposit down faster. It was actually fortunate for me, as the car had a few red flags. The most glaring was, the car was actually used as an extended loaner. I found this our when i noted a huge mileage discrepancy from the listing.

After browsing the BMW listings for several more months, this CPO'd car I "missed out" on, magically re-appeared. Obviously, there was some sort of issue with it and it was returned.

My335XI · 01-18-2011, 11:05 PM

Well the salesman called me back today, we have an appoiment set up for Thursday evening with the sale manager to address my concerns. I'm not sure what to expect, but in all honesty if I had known about the hail damage prior my purchase I would not of paid what I did for the car. I guess I'll find out Thursday.

ChickenFriedRice · 01-22-2011, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by My335XI

Well the salesman called me back today, we have an appoiment set up for Thursday evening with the sale manager to address my concerns. I'm not sure what to expect, but in all honesty if I had known about the hail damage prior my purchase I would not of paid what I did for the car. I guess I'll find out Thursday.

Any updates???

Thussy · 02-18-2011, 09:51 PM

Update?

My335XI · 02-18-2011, 11:43 PM

Sorry for the delay. So I had a sit-down with the salesman and his manager, I feel a face to face is much better than emails.

They fixed everything, gave me a loaner, new 323i, and did a full detail all on them. I do believe that they are probably one of the best BMW dealers in Toronto.

Even though I had just purchased this car, I always like to see what else is out there. I came across a 2010 335i Xdrive from St. Catherine's BMW with 14K on it, but at the time they wanted 62K, I looked again at the end of Jan and the car was listed at $45K and came with RFT and 20 inch rims. Called them on the 29th and they really wanted to make a deal before month end. To make a long short we came to a deal on Jan 31st at 12pm, but I had to pick the car up that day which I had no issue with. So between 12pm and 7pm they had the car CPO'd, detailed, 3M bra installed and Zxlonded.

If you're interested in hearing the nightmare of the rest of the story let me know and I'll post.

Thussy · 02-19-2011, 01:05 AM

I'd be interested in hearing the rest of the story and knowing what "fixed everything" means... mainly because you're in a 2010 335xi now, so I'm guessing the 2007 was traded in? Was it out of frustration with the 2007 car or was it because the deal was fantastic on the 2010?

My335XI · 02-19-2011, 02:16 PM

They fixed the damaged wheel well, gave it an oil change and a free detailing.

The nightmare was when I traded it in at St. Catherine's BMW. I knew I was going to take a hit but at least this way I was getting a 2010 coupe in space grey with red leather and way more options than my old car, plus 3 more years of warranty plus the CPO.

I picked it up at about 8pm. The salesman was in such a rush he spent maybe 10 minutes showing me the features, most of which were new to me coming from my base 2007. I still haven't had time to figure out the voice commands. Anyways I noticed that there were now cheap carpet mats on the floor, which when I originally looked the car had the standard all season rubber/carpet ones. I also looked around the inside of the car, and unlike when I picked up my 07 it wasn't all that clean inside. So I went to look in the trunk, that's when the lights of the dealership hit the car just right and I saw swirl marks all over it. I went to open the trunk looking for the other mats and my hand ran across the top of the rear bumper. My hand was filthy with black dust, and no mats were inside.

By now the dealer was closed so I got in and headed home. The next day the salesman called me to follow up and I expressed my issues, and asked how could they have used Xzilon if the car was so dirty and why would they put it on with the swirl marks on the trunk. He blew me off and told me to talk with the business manager. I sent 2 emails with no reply, finally she responded telling me of course we put the Xzilon on and offered for me to come back for them to look at. I didn't feel like making the 300 kms round trip just a few days after I picked up the car, so she said they would send a driver down to pick it up and give me a loaner, which I thought was a nice gesture.

It took another 3 days before I heard back saying they would come the following week. I told her it's fine, next time the family and I head to Buffalo I'd stop in. She agreed and put it on my file.

This is where it gets good. So last week I go up to RMP to see Rocco for something. He notices an oil leak and puts the car on the lift, takes the bottom pan off and this is what he finds.

http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/a...0211-00053.jpg

http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/a...0211-00054.jpg

http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/a...0211-00055.jpg

He asked me how long since the last oil change, I say a week, no way he says. And the reason for the leak, whoever put the plug in used their hand to tighten it, he showed me by just twisting it. I called the dealer who offered to come have it towed back, and sent me the paperwork showing that it did have the oil change. I was in no mood to have it towed all the way back to St. Catherine's so for my own peace of mind I had Rocco do an oil change. That was the last I've heard from St. Catherine's BMW in over a week.

Now I'm taking my car to Wes to have him do a proper detail on it and remove the zxlon if there really is any.

What I also found odd was we finalized the deal at about 12pm, the car still needed to get CPO'd (which I have heard that they don't CPO executive demos), have the 3M installed, zxlon, detailed, rims and tires switched, and oil changed and have it ready for me by 6pm. 6 hours to do all that on the last day of the month? I know I needed to give 1-2 wks notice before I picked up my 2007. I would think a proper prep would take much longer also since it had to be CPO'd

Anyways that's my rant. Don't get me wrong, I love the car and I think I got it for a very good price, but the after sales service was terrible. I told the manager we could have done the deal that night, he could have given me a loader and done the proper pre-delivery work and I would have been more than satisfied as I would have known they were taking their time and not rushing it.

Thussy · 02-23-2011, 12:27 AM

I'm glad at the end of the day, you're happy with the car - it's what really counts at the end. Since you bought the first car from what seems to be a fairly good dealership (based on them trying to correct for their errors), you should have decent service going forward with the car you have now.

I really don't understand why these dealerships cheapen the brand and purchase experience with the "add ons". When I was purchasing my car last week, I was psyched they found the exact car I wanted, got a decent price, good financing rates, and then they offered me the "electronic rust prevention module" and paint protection.

01-17-2011, 04:14 PM	#1
My335XI Private 1 Rep 98 Posts Drives: 2010 335I XDrive Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Toronto iTrader: (4)	New member here, need some opinions on purchase. Hi gentlemen (and ladies). Back at the end of November I purchased a 07 335XI sedan CPO with 44K from a local dealer here in Toronto. To preference my story let me begin by stating that last spring I sold my 2000 Porsche 996 and when the lease came up on my DD I wanted something that would be both powerful and functional for a family. I negotiated what I thought was a fair price as the in service date was Sept 07 so there was still factory warranty left plus 2 years CPO. The salesman assured me the car was never in an accident and provided me with the CarProof report which was clean. I asked for a service history report which took more than 24 hours to provide but it was emailed to me and I didn't see anything major except the cars last oil change was at 24,xxx. I mentioned that it looked like it needed an oil change, and I was assured if it did it would get one. On delivery the advisor was showing me the functions of the cars computer. We started it up and the snowflake icon came on, and then disappeared. I then noticed the "!" icon on the dash. I questioned the DA on why this was on. His answer was that it was warning me of the outside temp. I thought it was odd but okay, I mean he would know. I happily drove off, in my new, used BMW. Now this is where it gets interesting. As the weather warmed up a little in early Dec the light was still on, but I was not getting the snowflake icon. So I opened the manual to try to discover what was going on. Within 5 minutes I've done a check and it turns out the washer fluid is low. This had me mildly upset as I thought they would have topped up all fluids prior to delivery. So I fill it up and the icon goes away. Now I park the car for a few weeks in the garage as we take a family vacation. On returning I take the car out to run some errands and as I'm walking up to the car I notice that the rubber on the inside wheel well on the drivers side is pulling away from the frame to the point where some of the rivets are broken. To be honest I cannot be sure whether it was there prior to when I took delivery or not, but I can promise I did not do anything that would have caused it. Even worse the "!" icon is back, now telling me the oil is low. I email my salesperson and ask for a copy of the CPO checklist, within a few hours I get a call from him asking what the issues are. He apologies and says that the oil does not need changing even though it's been 20 months since it was last done. He proceeds to claim there is no CPO inspection documentation, just a checklist, but get this, he proceeds to tell me all the hail damage was fixed. When I responded what hail damage was he referring to he said the 18 dents that they had repaired. I told him he never disclosed this to me and it was the first I was hearing of it. He was at a loss and kept saying it was never in any accidents, just hail damage. To be honest if I knew this, I probably still would have purchased the car, but I would have tried to use it as leverage to get a little better price. Frustrated I hung up and called back to speak with a service manager. Of course he was able to send me the CPO report I was looking for. I also mentioned to him about the 20 months without an oil change and he apologized and suggested I make an appointment ASAP to have it done. After looking at the service report it says the rear brakes are at 7mm, I believe at 6mm they have to be replaced them to be CPO'd. This sure seems like they were cutting it close. Sorry about the long winded first message, I was just wondering what other members here think about this whole experience. Thanks! Last edited by My335XI; 01-17-2011 at 06:42 PM..
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01-17-2011, 04:23 PM	#2
bobblehead Brigadier General 259 Rep 4,721 Posts Drives: warp speed Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Toronto, On iTrader: (0)	Sorry to hear your not-so smooth purchase experience. Now, you may be stuck with the brake replacement job which may cost over $1000. In addition, you should also ask whether all other fluids (brakes, tranny, differential) have been replaced as well.
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01-17-2011, 04:37 PM	#3
MOAB Major 21 Rep 1,077 Posts Drives: Porsche & BMW Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Toronto iTrader: (0)	Just curious... Which dealer did you buy from? I have my own suspicions. __________________ March-November - '09 C4S (PDK, Akrapovic) December-February - '00 323 (only mod - snow tires)
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01-17-2011, 04:54 PM	#4
My335XI Private 1 Rep 98 Posts Drives: 2010 335I XDrive Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Toronto iTrader: (4)	I left the dealers name out for now, but I have only read good things about them, nothing negative. I just want to know if I have any recourse on the prior damage as they did know about it but failed to disclose it.
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01-17-2011, 09:33 PM	#6
Me_Hi Major 34 Rep 1,488 Posts Drives: * Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: * iTrader: (13)	Sorry to hear that OP but dealers are the worst. I took delivery of my car with bold non winter run flats in the middle of a winter storm. I couldn't even get out of the parking lot and I had to wait for the next day. The salesman was nowhere to be found that evening and the next day when I purchased the car he said the tires passed the inspection. I told him look at the CCTV from last night to see me trying to get out of the parking lot. Next time I will only sign papers when I can see with my own eyes they've done the work needed on that car. __________________
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01-17-2011, 10:55 PM	#7
My335XI Private 1 Rep 98 Posts Drives: 2010 335I XDrive Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Toronto iTrader: (4)	I was about to send the salesman another email to express my disappointment when I came across his original email to me which had 14 pictures of the car. I was able to zoom in on one and the wheel well damage was there! I took a screen shot and circled it with MS paint and emailed it back to him along with the CPO inspection document that he claimed didn't exist. I have requested a meeting with SM, or even GM to see what can be done to rectify the situation. Do they even look at a car before they CPO it?
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01-18-2011, 03:19 PM	#8
Thussy First Lieutenant 14 Rep 309 Posts Drives: E92 N54 Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Southern Ontario iTrader: (0) Garage List 2008 BMW 335i [10.00]	That's a good question... BMW Waterloo right now is looking at the lease return auctions for a car in the paint/package combination that I would like. The sales person was saying how not all lease returns at the auction can be CPO'd. I would assume they purchase on risk and hope that it meets the CPO "standards" (I think this is how it works as some dealerships sell CPO and non-CPO). They have an incentive to sell the cars as CPO as they can demand a higher price. If I were in your position (and who knows, I may very well be soon), I would use what you discovered as leverage to have the car re-checked, and anything "border line" fixed. Does anyone have the "checklist" that they use? The difference between 7mm and 6mm is so close that I would have wanted to take it into an indy dealer to confirm its condition.
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01-18-2011, 11:05 PM	#10
My335XI Private 1 Rep 98 Posts Drives: 2010 335I XDrive Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Toronto iTrader: (4)	Well the salesman called me back today, we have an appoiment set up for Thursday evening with the sale manager to address my concerns. I'm not sure what to expect, but in all honesty if I had known about the hail damage prior my purchase I would not of paid what I did for the car. I guess I'll find out Thursday.
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02-18-2011, 09:51 PM	#12
Thussy First Lieutenant 14 Rep 309 Posts Drives: E92 N54 Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Southern Ontario iTrader: (0) Garage List 2008 BMW 335i [10.00]	Update?
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02-18-2011, 11:43 PM	#13
My335XI Private 1 Rep 98 Posts Drives: 2010 335I XDrive Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Toronto iTrader: (4)	Sorry for the delay. So I had a sit-down with the salesman and his manager, I feel a face to face is much better than emails. They fixed everything, gave me a loaner, new 323i, and did a full detail all on them. I do believe that they are probably one of the best BMW dealers in Toronto. Even though I had just purchased this car, I always like to see what else is out there. I came across a 2010 335i Xdrive from St. Catherine's BMW with 14K on it, but at the time they wanted 62K, I looked again at the end of Jan and the car was listed at $45K and came with RFT and 20 inch rims. Called them on the 29th and they really wanted to make a deal before month end. To make a long short we came to a deal on Jan 31st at 12pm, but I had to pick the car up that day which I had no issue with. So between 12pm and 7pm they had the car CPO'd, detailed, 3M bra installed and Zxlonded. If you're interested in hearing the nightmare of the rest of the story let me know and I'll post. Last edited by My335XI; 02-19-2011 at 01:12 PM..
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02-19-2011, 01:05 AM	#14
Thussy First Lieutenant 14 Rep 309 Posts Drives: E92 N54 Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Southern Ontario iTrader: (0) Garage List 2008 BMW 335i [10.00]	I'd be interested in hearing the rest of the story and knowing what "fixed everything" means... mainly because you're in a 2010 335xi now, so I'm guessing the 2007 was traded in? Was it out of frustration with the 2007 car or was it because the deal was fantastic on the 2010?
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02-19-2011, 02:16 PM	#15
My335XI Private 1 Rep 98 Posts Drives: 2010 335I XDrive Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Toronto iTrader: (4)	They fixed the damaged wheel well, gave it an oil change and a free detailing. The nightmare was when I traded it in at St. Catherine's BMW. I knew I was going to take a hit but at least this way I was getting a 2010 coupe in space grey with red leather and way more options than my old car, plus 3 more years of warranty plus the CPO. I picked it up at about 8pm. The salesman was in such a rush he spent maybe 10 minutes showing me the features, most of which were new to me coming from my base 2007. I still haven't had time to figure out the voice commands. Anyways I noticed that there were now cheap carpet mats on the floor, which when I originally looked the car had the standard all season rubber/carpet ones. I also looked around the inside of the car, and unlike when I picked up my 07 it wasn't all that clean inside. So I went to look in the trunk, that's when the lights of the dealership hit the car just right and I saw swirl marks all over it. I went to open the trunk looking for the other mats and my hand ran across the top of the rear bumper. My hand was filthy with black dust, and no mats were inside. By now the dealer was closed so I got in and headed home. The next day the salesman called me to follow up and I expressed my issues, and asked how could they have used Xzilon if the car was so dirty and why would they put it on with the swirl marks on the trunk. He blew me off and told me to talk with the business manager. I sent 2 emails with no reply, finally she responded telling me of course we put the Xzilon on and offered for me to come back for them to look at. I didn't feel like making the 300 kms round trip just a few days after I picked up the car, so she said they would send a driver down to pick it up and give me a loaner, which I thought was a nice gesture. It took another 3 days before I heard back saying they would come the following week. I told her it's fine, next time the family and I head to Buffalo I'd stop in. She agreed and put it on my file. This is where it gets good. So last week I go up to RMP to see Rocco for something. He notices an oil leak and puts the car on the lift, takes the bottom pan off and this is what he finds. http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/a...0211-00053.jpg http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/a...0211-00054.jpg http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/a...0211-00055.jpg He asked me how long since the last oil change, I say a week, no way he says. And the reason for the leak, whoever put the plug in used their hand to tighten it, he showed me by just twisting it. I called the dealer who offered to come have it towed back, and sent me the paperwork showing that it did have the oil change. I was in no mood to have it towed all the way back to St. Catherine's so for my own peace of mind I had Rocco do an oil change. That was the last I've heard from St. Catherine's BMW in over a week. Now I'm taking my car to Wes to have him do a proper detail on it and remove the zxlon if there really is any. What I also found odd was we finalized the deal at about 12pm, the car still needed to get CPO'd (which I have heard that they don't CPO executive demos), have the 3M installed, zxlon, detailed, rims and tires switched, and oil changed and have it ready for me by 6pm. 6 hours to do all that on the last day of the month? I know I needed to give 1-2 wks notice before I picked up my 2007. I would think a proper prep would take much longer also since it had to be CPO'd Anyways that's my rant. Don't get me wrong, I love the car and I think I got it for a very good price, but the after sales service was terrible. I told the manager we could have done the deal that night, he could have given me a loader and done the proper pre-delivery work and I would have been more than satisfied as I would have known they were taking their time and not rushing it.
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02-23-2011, 12:27 AM	#16
Thussy First Lieutenant 14 Rep 309 Posts Drives: E92 N54 Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Southern Ontario iTrader: (0) Garage List 2008 BMW 335i [10.00]	I'm glad at the end of the day, you're happy with the car - it's what really counts at the end. Since you bought the first car from what seems to be a fairly good dealership (based on them trying to correct for their errors), you should have decent service going forward with the car you have now. I really don't understand why these dealerships cheapen the brand and purchase experience with the "add ons". When I was purchasing my car last week, I was psyched they found the exact car I wanted, got a decent price, good financing rates, and then they offered me the "electronic rust prevention module" and paint protection.
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