[Ilma]

Some of you may recall that I have been experiencing post-shift timing drops since the dealer replaced my fuel pump and injectors for the recall campaign.

I have been trying to troubleshoot it for a couple of months, but wasn't getting anywhere.

The crux of the problem was this.

If I did a 3rd to 4th gear pull, my timing curve would look perfect in 3rd, and after the upshift into 4th, it would drop to zero degrees and pretty much flatline there, rising only a few degrees at best.

I began running datalogs to find some kind of correlation to other parameters, and began to notice a pattern.

After the shift, my air/fuel ratio would drop down to the 10's or low 11's which seemed a little too rich to me.

Sure enough, whenever the A/F became too rich, the DME would respond by dropping timing.

So I sent Shiv a typical datalog of my issue last night and he immediately mailed me an "open loop fuel" map.

Now quite honestly, I am not sure how open loop works versus a closed loop system, but the end result is that it managed to raise up my A/F ratio after the shift.

You can see in the before and after logs below that my A/F ratio used to drop as low as 9.9:1 and the timing curve would take a dump.

The "open loop" version of the map that Shiv sent me added about 2 points to my A/F ratio and it never went below 11.9:1.

Notice that the timing curve looks normal again and is identical to that of 3rd gear.

So it appears that running too rich of a mixture made the car stumble the timing curve.

Kudo's to Shiv for stepping up to the plate on this one.

Hopefully it's a home run.



Here is the before datalog.
Notice the A/F ratio of 9.9 and zero degrees of ignition advance

[Ilma]

Here is the "After" result using Shiv's open loop fueling map:

Notice the improvement of the A/F ratio from 9.9 to 11.9 and the happy timing curve

I think there is meth in my future now!

[EastBayE90]

Good to know. Shiv is the Jedi master of the N54. This goes to show that if you are having any issues at all with your Procede tuned car just get in contact with Shiv or Robert and they will gladly help you out.

[Joshboody]

Cool, do you have the new DME software right with the car skidding in the middle readout when dtc is pressed once?

Now with the 5.2 software, you can pull up this map and see what's different in the OL mapping... i was looking over some of the older maps today viewing the differences... pretty subtle really. When more maps are opened it's going to be very interesting.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Makes sense. Being overly rich is never a good thing for timing. I remember tuning on a different platform on a guys car and he kept adding fuel to get rid of knock. The whole problem was that he kept adding fuel for safety cause he was knocking, but adding so much fuel was making it that much worse!

[jippii ensio]

Did the dealership have any comments on the problem?

Open loop doesn't sound too good, if it means there is no closed loop...

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by jippii ensio

Did the dealership have any comments on the problem?

Open loop doesn't sound too good, if it means there is no closed loop...

No. The map i sent Ilma was titled "open loop" because there were changes made to the open loop fuel table. This does not mean that there is no closed loop fuel control. If you read the Procede software tutorial, it would explain everything. This map resolved Ilma's rich running condition that started when the dealership replaces two injectors and updated his software. Part 1 of the upcoming user tuning tutorial will show how users can dial their open loop fuel tables to best suit their mods, hardware and conditions. This becomes especially useful when running aux fuel systems like methanol injection.

[jippii ensio]

Cool!

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

Cool, do you have the new DME software right with the car skidding in the middle readout when dtc is pressed once?

Now with the 5.2 software, you can pull up this map and see what's different in the OL mapping... i was looking over some of the older maps today viewing the differences... pretty subtle really. When more maps are opened it's going to be very interesting.

Yup - newer software update is when the problem started, but as Shiv mentioned it may be due to new injector hardware.

So glad the problem was an easy fix for Shiv with just a small change to the fuel mapping.

Now I just gotta learn how to do this myself....lol. The new software looks very impressive. Still trying to wrap my head around it.

I gotta say that the procede has managed to transform the car after the dealer update.

The new BMW software seemed to introduce a lot more lag on stock setup. I noticed it immediately on the drive home. As soon as i reinstalled the procede, the direct boost control completely eliminated the problem.

And now it can also take care of fuel glitches as well.

I shudder to think what I would have had to go through with the dealer or an indie to get rid of these issues.

[import36]

awesome man...glad to see you finally got this resolved. great work shiv!

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by import36

awesome man...glad to see you finally got this resolved. great work shiv!

Thanks!

I know the newer software has created some glitches for a few of the members.

Just wanted to share my experience in case anyone else is having weird issues with the newer BMW software.

And also give credit to Shiv for such a fast solution as well

[themyst]

Is this fuel mapping implemented in public firmware/maps?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by themyst

Is this fuel mapping implemented in public firmware/maps?

Yes. The public version of the User tuning software has full map-ability.

[themyst]

I was asking in terms of an OTS firmware/map

[Glowin]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

No. The map i sent Ilma was titled "open loop" because there were changes made to the open loop fuel table. This does not mean that there is no closed loop fuel control. If you read the Procede software tutorial, it would explain everything.

This map resolved Ilma's rich running condition that started when the dealership replaces two injectors and updated his software.

Part 1 of the upcoming user tuning tutorial will show how users can dial their open loop fuel tables to best suit their mods, hardware and conditions. This becomes especially useful when running aux fuel systems like methanol injection.

I assume not everyone who got new injectors will experience this? I'm getting a bog after shifting (sorry, I've not had a chance to send you logs yet as you asked), and I wonder if it's related to this? I know your initial thoughts are that it isn't.

Can you pls. explain why exactly new injectors are creating issues?

[Joshboody]

Originally Posted by Glowin

I assume not everyone who got new injectors will experience this? I'm getting a bog after shifting (sorry, I've not had a chance to send you logs yet as you asked), and I wonder if it's related to this? I know your initial thoughts are that it isn't.

Can you pls. explain why exactly new injectors are creating issues?

My understanding is that fueling is too sensitive with the new software and if DME is not meeting targets it retards timing. BUT only with the latest software. If you are not running high boost and/or with meth, this shouldn't be the issue.

What are your settings and mods... maybe you are just running too aggressive and timing drops on a shift due to knock sensor.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Glowin

I assume not everyone who got new injectors will experience this? I'm getting a bog after shifting (sorry, I've not had a chance to send you logs yet as you asked), and I wonder if it's related to this? I know your initial thoughts are that it isn't.

Can you pls. explain why exactly new injectors are creating issues?

It has nothing really to do with injectors as I got the new dme software but no injectors and I have the same issue.

@Glowin do you have a manual? This issue doesn't affect manuals from what I understand and bogging is an entirely different issue.

[Pry]

My injectors were just updated. Maybe it would be a good idea to do some datalogs and see if I have the same issue as OP did?

My car is otherwise stock.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Pry

My injectors were just updated. Maybe it would be a good idea to do some datalogs and see if I have the same issue as OP did?

My car is otherwise stock.

Ive monitored timing stock on the post recall update and it's perfect. The problem is when I'm tuned on or off meth.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by themyst

Ive monitored timing stock on the post recall update and it's perfect. The problem is when I'm tuned on or off meth.

Then you should install a Procede and run the default maps. If you still have the timing drop, log fuel trims and adjust open loop fuel map accordingly (as Ilma did). You can do this individually for both Map1 (no meth) and Map2 (with meth). And the Procede will transition between the two OL fuel maps as meth flows/stops. You're trims will stay consistent enough to avoid any DME reaction.

Shiv

[Glowin]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

My understanding is that fueling is too sensitive with the new software and if DME is not meeting targets it retards timing. BUT only with the latest software. If you are not running high boost and/or with meth, this shouldn't be the issue.

What are your settings and mods... maybe you are just running too aggressive and timing drops on a shift due to knock sensor.

Originally Posted by themyst

It has nothing really to do with injectors as I got the new dme software but no injectors and I have the same issue.

@Glowin do you have a manual? This issue doesn't affect manuals from what I understand and bogging is an entirely different issue.

Yes, I have a manual, it's a 2008 335, stock other than the Procede (plus CDV delete), on 91 octane. Only have 20,000 miles on the car. I've always run map 1 without any changes to the defaults. I'm on the 6-14 maps right now.

IIRC, one/two injectors got done, plus a new HPFP, but no software, as that was done a while back when they rolled out that new software that primed the pump first.

It's definitely bog I'm feeling, as when I do fast 2-3 shifts on the highway at WOT, the first half a second after shift the car dies, before it picks up power. Sounds like I do have a different issue than Ilma (Shiv thought so too, he said he was having a transmission adaptation issue).

[dzenno]

Ilma, keep watching over your datalogs though...things sometimes do come back when you think they've been solved