[FieldingMellish]

Hi folks. I'm wondering just how big a difference switching from one type of tyre to another can make. I'm not talking about ditching runflats here, I mean swapping one type of runflat for another.

See my thread re. alignment/steering problems:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=538805

The dealer has now suggested that I try swapping my wheels (18" Star Spoke, with Potenzas fitted) for the same wheels but with Michelin tyres fitted. Can this possibly alleviate the problems I continue to have with uncertain steering, etc? Can changing the tyres really have such a big effect?

[chris_s1]

I highly doubt it, especially since the Bridgestone RTFs are the standard fit item.

I wouldn't swap tyres at my cost thats for sure. Surely the dealer could just swap your wheels over with a car in their stock and let you drive around for a few minutes?

[gIzzE]

Just swap, the Bridgestones are crap compared with the Michelins for comfort and handling so at least you will get a better tyre whether it sorts your issue or not.

I have a set of Bridgestone runflats off a 1 series sat in my garage that wore really badly, every other nobble is a different height, there is a name for this but I can't for the life of me remember what it is called. Anyway, even though it made for a terrible ride, as in noisy and felt like the balancing was out, it didn't make the handling feel loose at all.

[pjs]

Had a read of your other thread, very strange. Every beemer I've had (all with sport suspension) will pull ever so slightly to the left (camber perhaps) but more importantly feel totally planted at speed+++ with no steering issues. I'm happy with the Bridgstone RFt's btw.

[FieldingMellish]

Oh no, I was definitely not thinking of having them changed at cost. Throw good money after bad? No thanks! No, they offered to swap the wheels for me and let me see if that solves the problem. I doubt it though. Anyway I was all set to drive over there yet again tomorrow morning, but they emailed me at 5.0ppm today to say the car they'd intended to take the wheels off has a split tyre or some such, so the swap is off. They'll have to reschedule. Frankly pissed off now. No matter what happens I wil lhave to take this car to an independent.

My next cafr will be an old banger. This is the last time I waste this much cash on a car, it just means that when theinevitable car troubles crop up, it's a bg problem, because you've invested so much in the car. Fuck it. Enough's enough.

Anybody want to offer me £19k for a beautiful 330i saloon, only done 16,000 miles, all in good working order, except for the steering which is a total disaster zone????

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by FieldingMellish

.... No, they offered to swap the wheels for me and let me see if that solves the problem. I doubt it though.

In your position I'd definitely take up the offer for trying a different wheel set, before you make any further decision. I know you are frustrated, but you will never know if it is tyres iuntil you at least try a different set.

I'll come back with a bit more detail later, have to go out...

HighlandPete

[FieldingMellish]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

In your position I'd definitely take up the offer for trying a different wheel set, before you make any further decision. I know you are frustrated, but you will never know if it is tyres iuntil you at least try a different set.

I'll come back with a bit more detail later, have to go out...

HighlandPete

Thanks. Yes, as someone (Gizze?) already said, the worst that can happen is that they give me a set of wheels with Michelins rather than Potenzas. But to get those, I'd have to say yes, this has solved my problem. On the other hand, I have no faith whatsoever in their ability to solve problems. Either they are hiding something (eg. car has been in an accident) or they are just incompetent.

[HighlandPete]

Just reread the older thread and see alignment has been adjusted and then sorted to get the steering wheel correct, for straight ahead positiion.

You say it's around 16k miles now, are you on the original tyres, part worn examples? Also you mention running 37 psi on the front. Just to clarify, you are on 18" wheels?

I understand you have the light unstable steering at motorway speeds and also mention "left a bit, right a bit, left a bit" on the twisty stuff. Do you sense any other strange steering feel? Is there a feeling a bit like torque steer on a FWD car, the steering tugs and the car darts in response.

You say the alignment has changed the steering feel, but not totally sorted the directional stability, I assume.

Some of what you report (putting the steering weighting aside for a moment) occured on my car, particularly as the original tyres (Bridgestone Potenza) wore down.

Even with a tweak to the toe-in to try and get more precision, I still had the issues, more so in a particular ambient temperature range, where the car became less precise and was more wayward.

I invested in another wheel set, as BMW would not sanction a wheel trial and I wanted more than a few miles on a different wheel set. But I did fit them with non run-flats and the car was transformed.

I have since removed the RFTs from the original wheel set, after giving up on them and have a winter tyre set on the rims. The car is even better on the softer winter rubber, so what I'm saying tyres do make a difference. But I do suspect some cars have a tolerance stack that allows a good road feel, but others find the RFT too tight a set of parameters, that stability falls apart too easily. The Michelin PS2 ZP may be just that bit softer and give the car a bit more tolerance, allowing a more stable drive, without the sensitive reactions which some of us have found. That's assuming your car is now set up to the correct and best alignment settings.

BTW, I test drove one early model demo E91 320d touring, which was so bad my wife thought it was set up as a ditch finder, it darted all over the road. My car was pretty good when new, but within 8 - 10k miles was getting a very loose feel, I even suspected the steering rack was faulty. Certainly after the garage did a KDS, to try and get the car more directionally stable. I inspected it myself on two occasions, believing the garage had missed finding something loose.

With my two wheel sets, I did fit the RFTs back on, for several holidays away from home, and each time the car felt so loose by comparison to the other wheels.

Originally I fitted Goodyear Eagle F1's which worked well, but could in extremes and when cold suffer a bit of tramlining, the current Falkens don't have that issue at all. I've not had any alignment changes, so all comes back to tyres.

HighlandPete

[FieldingMellish]

Pete, thank you for you long and thoughtful post.

Yes, they did sort the alignment back in June, and that improved things a lot, but didn't totally fux the problems. Of course, before they fixed it the woman on the service desk tried to tell me the problems were "a characteristic of the car", and when I said I had had 2 previous 3 Series cars she said ah, but were they 330's, sir, were they 330's. No, they weren't, I admitted. Aha! she said, well you see the 330's have bigger wheels than teh smaller engine cars..... To which I pointed out that both my previosu cars had had exactly the same wheels as this one.

Anyway, I would describe the probelms I still have now as a marked absence of the things that make a 3 Series such a fun and involving car to drive: that feeling of balance, poise, and sure-footedness.

It's great to have the power of a 6 cylinder petrol engine, but it's worthless (and in fact dangerous) without the handling that goes with it. Would I swap this car for my old car? In a heartbeat.

Aside from the steering still feeling slightly off-centre, the main problem is that the car feels unstable at speed, and almost feels as if it is weaving around, like the car is zig zagging or 'snaking' along. It feels as though there is no connection between the steering and the front wheels. It just does not feel right.

Many times I have tried to convince myself that "it's just me", but if I ask myself teh question, does this car feel like your two revious 3 series models, the answer is a very firm no.

Yes, I am running 37 psi on the fronts, 41 on the rears. They are 18" star spoke wheels, the same as I had on my 318i and then my 320d. Same tyres too. Yes, I am on the original tyres, but one point that may or may not be relevant: when I was negotiating a price on the 330i, they told me thay had spent £700 refurbising it, I asked how come so much, they said that included a new tyre, the nearside rear one. DOn't know why.

I haven't experienced that 'steering tug' you describe, no.

What you say sounds encouraging regarding the possibility of different tyres making a difference.

Whatever happens, I have no choice but to eventually take the car to an indy and have them check it out. If the dealer wants to give me wheels with Michelins on them then great, but if that doesn't sort the problem then I'll have to have the car investigated. (I did an HPI that came back clean.)

The whole thing has really soured me on buying BMWs, or any pricey car. Sometimes I miss my old Golf, which I could drive over curbs and park wherever I liked withuot worrying.

I've had this car now for a couple of months and it has never been right. And just in case I might succeed in convincing myself that I was just being hyper-sensitive and imagining problems, when the dealer has lent me various 3 series courtesy cars, they have all driven like a 3 series should drive, reinforcing the impression that something is fundamentally wrong with my car.

[HighlandPete]

Don't give up just yet. I got to the point I was about to trade out and move on, before I took control of my car. Was only a year old and was being offered just over £21k on a £37k purchase. So I would have been the loser.

You do need to at least get a different wheel set on the car, to see if it brings the car back into a working tolerance again, even if not 100%. I'd still be prepared for an alignment outside of BMW. The car may be "in tolerance" (on the print out) but that isn't the whole story... but get the wheel test done first.

BTW, I'm please I didn't sell out, in fact I've kept the car 2-years longer than I'd planned, so that says something about a bit of sorting a problem car.

HighlandPete

[FieldingMellish]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Don't give up just yet. I got to the point I was about to trade out and move on, before I took control of my car. Was only a year old and was being offered just over £21k on a £37k purchase. So I would have been the loser.

You do need to at least get a different wheel set on the car, to see if it brings the car back into a working tolerance again, even if not 100%. I'd still be prepared for an alignment outside of BMW. The car may be "in tolerance" (on the print out) but that isn't the whole story... but get the wheel test done first.

BTW, I'm please I didn't sell out, in fact I've kept the car 2-years longer than I'd planned, so that says something about a bit of sorting a problem car.

HighlandPete

Cheers.

They did send me a printout of teh alignment work they did, but I couldn't really understand it.

I'll wait to see what happens this week, and start looking at taking the car to an indy. I have zero faith in any BMW dealership to carry out competent or conscientious work on any car.

When the issued this car to me, they gave me a car (which had a sticker price of £20k) which had different tyre pressures on each wheel, higher pressure on the front than on the rear tyres, the alignment way out of whack, the steering not centred properly, and a persistent rattle coming form the left rear of teh car.

[HighlandPete]

Even if the printout is within spec', it doesn't mean the car will be set up in the best possible way. Sometimes a chassis that is showing weird characteristics needs some fine tuning, usually by someone that understands chassis dynamics. Guys with a bit of experience setting up cars for track use are often best at this, a quick drive will likely give them a feel for what needs adjusting.

I had a VW B5 Passat that was set up on an approved Beissbarth rig at a main dealer, after fitting a new rear axle, but it wasn't right. The settings and printout appeared fine, the alignment was approved by the VW Area Technical guy, but it didn't drive straight and went around a left hand bend, different than a right hand bend.

It required a few tweaks before the car was sorted and settled. VW didn't want to allow any changes, but it was clear in driving, it was messed up, and had to be sorted before the car was back to its original (pre axle change) driving feel.

Strange thing with the Passat, I could see the rear axle was not set square to the car, but the alignment rig didn't show it up. Which I admit was very strange indeed. Could prove it was out with a string line and a simple credit card, checking the clearance gaps to the wheel arches.

Don't give up at the moment, however you feel about the car and the garage. So tempting to walk, but if you like the car I'd persist a bit more, before deciding to move on.

HighlandPete

[FieldingMellish]

Well, would you believe it? Have had the new tyres on since Saturday, and haven't had a hint of the steering problems that have ruined the experience of driving this car since I bought it. Hooray for the Michelin Pilot Sports. What a difference! Incredible, really.

[rich1068]

Excellent news. And at any cost to yourself?

Just FYI, mine came with Pilot Sports. A problem with the Bridgestones maybe?

[gIzzE]

I knew it would be the tyres, they make such a difference on BMWs it is untrue.
That is why I get so annoyed when people say they have different tyres on front and rear and say it doesn't effect it.

[Fx1]

i remember having this problem on my E92 and i can't remember how i fixed it. on the motorway it felt like it was pulling all the time and i could never relax the wheel.

i think i had the steering aligned which helped but it changed when i have new tyres i think same make though

[zltm089]

very interesting post!...

I can't let go of the steering wheel aswell...cars seems to pull slightly to the left...

[FieldingMellish]

I really cannot get over just how big a difference switching the tyres made.

They say there is a problem with some Potenzas (particular models and/or ages) which causes uneven wear, which leads to these problems.

The pilot sports feel much better in general, as well as fixing the problems.

No, no cost to me, this has all been part of getting the car to drive teh way it should have when I bought it.

Only niggle is that they now have to take the car in again, because the wheels they had the Michelins on are a grey coloured version of my (18" star) wheels, which they need to put back on their special edition car. So they have to take those tyres off and swap them onto my original wheels. Still, they will get that done in a day.

I wonder what the cost differential is, between Potenzas and Pilot Sports? Certainly the Michelins seem much better.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by FieldingMellish

I really cannot get over just how big a difference switching the tyres made....

Pleased you didn't give up on the car, before trying the wheel/tyre swap.

Proves the point once again, that tyres may appear OK, but that is only part of the story.

HighlandPete

[FieldingMellish]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Pleased you didn't give up on the car, before trying the wheel/tyre swap.

Proves the point once again, that tyres may appear OK, but that is only part of the story.

HighlandPete

True.

Thanks for all your help and advice.

[buckethead]

good news what do the grey wheels look like on a sliver car

i wonder if someone else is going to get your tyres on the car they buy...

[gIzzE]

Tell them you will give them £200 so they can get your wheels refinished in the grey, think they look great on a silver car.