[DaFish]

I have a problem with when meth is spraying now and it is directly related to the user settings I made changes too.

1) I had % meth at 20% and then changed this to 30% - I thought this would just spray MORE meth at the same psi target of about 4 or 4 psi (when it usually starts to spray)

2) I was finding that it is a bit hard to drive the car smoothly in first with the boost response at 45 (the bottom variable in user config) . The car kind of bunny hops and you have to drive it carefully and smoothly. so I changed this from default of 45 to 40.

3) I turned OFF Autotuning on map 2/4 - I wasn't making a consistent 18 psi boost on the gas guage.

What I see now:

1) Meth used to spray at about 4 or 5 psi - the lights would flash. Now that I have made these changes, I don't get Meth indicator lights on until about 8 psi or more.

2) Boost response certainly has been slowed down - it is easier to drive the car in first, but now I am seeing that boost doesn't build quick enough when I go WOT. I am also not making my

3) I am not making 18psi boost.

I am going to put the settings back tonight.

Any thoughts?

[Overboost]

I think you have already answered your questions. If you wanted to see the indicator light turn on at 4 psi when set to 30% i think you would have to adjust the methanol duty cycle table to increase meth at that point to see 30% of flow. Not sure what effect this would have on drivability. As for boost response, changing that input changes how much throttle input is needed before the engine adjusts the wastegate duty cycle to make boost. I personally like mine more responsive so i usually set mine to 50% and i can control the rest with careful throttle input. All wastegates seem to have some difference as well which could affect the setting for this also. If its to fast at 45 and to slow at 40, try a number in between.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by DaFish

I have a problem with when meth is spraying now and it is directly related to the user settings I made changes too.

1) I had % meth at 20% and then changed this to 30% - I thought this would just spray MORE meth at the same psi target of about 4 or 4 psi (when it usually starts to spray)

Any thoughts?

If you are referring to injection mode = 20 in the user adjustables, then I think this just determines how much meth has to flow before the maps switch from map1 settings to map2 more aggressive settings.

If you upped this to 30, then you would not switch maps until higher meth flow was achieved......which probably delays the map switchover. I am pretty sure meth flow is controlled by the boost activation switch which would be a fixed mechanical set point.

I don't think the injection mode setting impacts the amount of meth flow nor the boost onset point. My meth starts to flow around 6-7 psi but if you delayed the map switchover then it makes sense that your lights flash a bit later now as more meth needs to flow before the maps switch.

But that is just speculation.

I am not a "Tooner" lol

Agree with the post above for the boost gain percentage. I prefer 50, but it is a bit touchy and you have to modulate it a bit more.

[sear]

OP, Shiv gave me some comments wrt the meth injection flow user paramter in one of my recent threads... My understanding from him in that exchange is that a larger value will delay the switchover from map 1 to map 2. In other words, I think that paramter defines how much meth needs to be already flowing in order to swithc to the more agressive map. I don't think it controls how much actually does flow, but I could be wrong about that...

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by sear

OP, Shiv gave me some comments wrt the meth injection flow user paramter in one of my recent threads... My understanding from him in that exchange is that a larger value will delay the switchover from map 1 to map 2. In other words, I think that paramter defines how much meth needs to be already flowing in order to swithc to the more agressive map. I don't think it controls how much actually does flow, but I could be wrong about that...

100% correct. Injection mode does not change actual meth flow. This is purely a function of nozzle size and the methanol injector DC (rpm vs load). When you increase the injection mode, all you are doing is increasing the meth flow requirement for the transition to map2. Which means it will take more flow before your lights start to flash. This is not to be mistaken for meth flowing less.

Typical rule of thumb is you want to set your injection mode low enough so that you get a solid light at wot from, say 3000rpm to redline. But high enough that you have a good failsafe if flow is compromised (ie, meth indicators start to flash or not turn on at all). This usually means that you set injection mode approx 60-70% of your max steady flow value you see in the logs.

It should also be noted that about 20% more flow is available for all stock turbo PWM meth users since the max value in the meth DC table is 80%. You can dial things up to 100% if so desired. But typically, this extra flow is only useful on cars with upgraded turbos that are running more boost/airflow.

Shiv

[DaFish]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

100% correct. Injection mode does not change actual meth flow. This is purely a function of nozzle size and the methanol injector DC (rpm vs load). When you increase the injection mode, all you are doing is increasing the meth flow requirement for the transition to map2. Which means it will take more flow before your lights start to flash. This is not to be mistaken for meth flowing less.

Typical rule of thumb is you want to set your injection mode low enough so that you get a solid light at wot from, say 3000rpm to redline. But high enough that you have a good failsafe if flow is compromised (ie, meth indicators start to flash or not turn on at all). This usually means that you set injection mode approx 60-70% of your max steady flow value you see in the logs.

It should also be noted that about 20% more flow is available for all stock turbo PWM meth users since the max value in the meth DC table is 80%. You can dial things up to 100% if so desired. But typically, this extra flow is only useful on cars with upgraded turbos that are running more boost/airflow.

Shiv

Thanks Shiv, I set it back down to 18% for meth flow... from what I understand, this will make meth come on SOONER at mayb 4 or 5 PSI.

I also went back up to 44 on Boost response. I wasn't making my 18 PSI with the settings I had above (30% and 40 boost) - this was not logical to me.... any reason why I wouldn't have made boost in second and third?

Once I changed it back, I got my boost alright.... wow

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by DaFish

Thanks Shiv, I set it back down to 18% for meth flow... from what I understand, this will make meth come on SOONER at mayb 4 or 5 PSI.

It will not make actual meth flow start sooner. But you may get that impression because it will require more meth flow before the meth flow lights come on. So it may require more throttle or a higher RPM for this to happen.

I also went back up to 44 on Boost response. I wasn't making my 18 PSI with the settings I had above (30% and 40 boost) - this was not logical to me.... any reason why I wouldn't have made boost in second and third?

I'm not quite following. Why don't you run the default value of 100% for Boost Response. There really isn't any reason to lower it unless you think the boost/throttle relationship is too "touchy". But it really shouldn't be.

[Tzu]

At Injection Mode 20, I dont get spray until 8.8psi. I figured it was a poorly calibrated boost pressure sensor. That seems to be the consistent number. At a higher value my logs went super wonky; I'm scared to run a lower value because meth should be dumping enough before switching maps. Not really willing to try on my car.

Be careful.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by Tzu

At Injection Mode 20, I dont get spray until 8.8psi. That seems to be the consistent number. At a higher value my logs went super wonky; I'm scared to run a lower value because meth should be dumping enough before switching maps. Not really willing to try on my car.

Be careful.

Agreed....you really probably shouldn't be switching maps too soon.

Need a good flow going first - then anything is possible!

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Tzu

At Injection Mode 20, I dont get spray until 8.8psi. That seems to be the consistent number. At a higher value my logs went super wonky; I'm scared to run a lower value because meth should be dumping enough before switching maps. Not really willing to try on my car.

Be careful.

The meth system (pump and solenoid) is armed by the boost switch that is T'd into your bypass valve line. It is set, from the factory, to switch at 4-5psi. This means the pump will turn on at 4-5psi. But flow wont start until the meth solenoid is pulsed more than 10-12%. Looking at the default meth dc table:



This happens, depending on RPM, between 138 and 153 kpa. Or approx 5-6psi. However, if you are waiting for the meth indicator to light up, this will require a bit more flow. Flow that doesn't really happen until meth DC is around 40-50% DC. That doesn't happen until 171 to 189kpa (depending on RPM) which is around 9-11psi.

So if you see adequate Meth injector DC% values in your logs (suggesting that the Procede is driving the solenoid) but you don't see the expected flow (suggesting that the solenoid/pump is not turned on/armed) then you may have a case were the boost switch isn't adjusted properly. I haven't seen this before but it's possible (although highly unlikely). To adjust it, you can pop off the rubber cap on the top of it. And adjust the screw with an allen wrench. If you loosen the screw 1 turn, it will switch on a lower boost pressure. But I'd verify that this is the case before adjusting anything mechanically as you really shouldn't need to.

I PM'd you several days ago asking if you needed help but I have yet to hear from you.

Shiv

[Tzu]

I believe you posted many logs arguing with Clap illustrating the fact that injection began at 5psi. I'm pretty sure you put the curser right at the initial flow point, to show that it equated 5psi. I may be wrong, I can look for the thread later.

I got your PM. I sent a few emails about 6 weeks ago, PM's and called you guys for some assistance and didn't receive a hoot until I started flaming your product. After figuring I was on my own, I've done all my own tinkering to dial it in myself. Probably a blessing in disguise after I started tearing apart the system.

You can give me an update as to where the relay you guys "expressed" me about 3-4 weeks ago that was not included in my kit though.

Besides the point. OP should careful when tinkering with those values. I wouldn't go more than 2-3 points in either direction without logging first. My logs were scary wonky when I trying to dial it in.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Tzu

I believe you posted many logs arguing with Clap illustrating the fact that injection began at 5psi. I'm pretty sure you put the curser right at the initial flow point, to show that it equated 5psi. I may be wrong, I can look for the thread later.

In my post above, I explained that flow will start at 5-6psi. This does not mean the meth light will come on at 5-6psi.

I got your PM. I sent a few emails about 6 weeks ago, PM's and called you guys for some assistance and didn't receive a hoot until I started flaming your product. After figuring I was on my own, I've done all my own tinkering to dial it in myself. Probably a blessing in disguise after I started tearing apart the system.

We spend a good deal of our day providing support to our customers. But you won't even tell us what your name is. So if we dropped the ball a few weeks ago, our apologies. There is nothing we can do until you contact us again. So if you want to be on your own, we can't stop you. But I assure you that we know the system better than you do and can probably help you get to the designed result quicker than you can by yourself.

You can give me an update as to where the relay you guys "expressed" me about 3-4 weeks ago that was not included in my kit though.

Again, you refuse to tell me your name so I cannot help you at this time. Perhaps email sales@vishnutuning.com. Or call us during work hours. If you chose to remain anonymous, i'm not sure what we can do.

Besides the point. OP should careful when tinkering with those values. I wouldn't go more than 2-3 points in either direction without logging first. My logs were scary wonky when I trying to dial it in.

No one should adjust any of the values beyond the suggested default settings unless they understand what they do. This applies to everyone.

Shiv

[Tzu]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

In my post above, I explained that flow will start at 5-6psi. This does not mean the meth light will come on at 5-6psi.



We spend a good deal of our day providing support to our customers. But you won't even tell us what your name is. So if we dropped the ball a few weeks ago, our apologies. There is nothing we can do until you contact us again. So if you want to be on your own, we can't stop you. But I assure you that we know the system better than you do and can probably help you get to the designed result quicker than you can by yourself.



Again, you refuse to tell me your name so I cannot help you at this time. Perhaps email sales@vishnutuning.com. Or call us during work hours. If you chose to remain anonymous, i'm not sure what we can do.



No one should adjust any of the values beyond the suggested default settings unless they understand what they do. This applies to everyone.

Shiv

In my post above, I explained that you posed logs to prove the 5psi flow parameter. My time is limited, but I'll be happy to look for the logs you posted during the PWM induction thread. I log, I don't watch for lights.

I know you know the system better. You designed it. You have to agree that understanding each and all parameters, its function, and how it affects dependent variables is of the upmost importance of form and function of mathematical prediction. Most people buy the system assuming its plug and play. It's not. That's the sad part.

I have done all the necessary contact that any normal person would deem even slightly excessive. Do you understand the point of being anonymous? You don't know me, therefore no special treatment unless flames are lit. Understand?

[DaFish]

Sorry Shiv, it wasn't boost response (still at 100%) it was Boost GAIN control - that was 45.

I will put meth injection back to 20 % that seemed to work... and it did come on between 4-5PSI on the gas guage - the indicator lights did come on then.

I may play around with boost gain control - I am actually going to try 50 and see what that feels like

Shiv - I re-read this my thread and for the life of me I don't understand this meth injection.... let me see if I get this right... please advise.

Regardless of the % meth injection setting - no more meth flows - that is a function of the pump and the map

if I set this to 5% - will meth start to flow earlier
if I set this to 90% - will meth start to flow later?

WTF does this parameter do please ? What will you experience in real world events with respect to:
1) Meth flow amount - (assuming it won't change)
2) PSI needed to flow meth - (will it come on with more or less boost)
3) indicator lights come on when ? I thought as soon as meth flows the lights come on...
4) What do you use this thing for?

[Tzu]

To answer your question Mr. Fish, the pump PRESSURE is constant. The sensor measures flow, which is a raw value (a function of pulse width per injector duty cycle) and has variance from sensor to sensor. This is flow value. Say full flow is 35, you put Injection Mode at 20 so at about 55% of full flow, the procede begins to switch into map 2 with more aggressive values.

This is why you log. If full flow for you is 40, then try an IJ of 25. If 30, then try 17. It's a nonsense, non-scaled value, because of variance.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by DaFish

Sorry Shiv, it wasn't boost response (still at 100%) it was Boost GAIN control - that was 45.

I will put meth injection back to 20 % that seemed to work... and it did come on between 4-5PSI on the gas guage - the indicator lights did come on then.

I may play around with boost gain control - I am actually going to try 50 and see what that feels like

Shiv - I re-read this my thread and for the life of me I don't understand this meth injection.... let me see if I get this right... please advise.

Regardless of the % meth injection setting - no more meth flows - that is a function of the pump and the map

if I set this to 5% - will meth start to flow earlier
if I set this to 90% - will meth start to flow later?

WTF does this parameter do please ? What will you experience in real world events with respect to:
1) Meth flow amount - (assuming it won't change)
2) PSI needed to flow meth - (will it come on with more or less boost)
3) indicator lights come on when ? I thought as soon as meth flows the lights come on...
4) What do you use this thing for?

Let me explain in a different way. Actual meth flow is 100% dependent on the Meth DC table which does not change unless you, for some reason, change it. So nothing you do to the Injection Mode value will have an effect on actual meth flow. What Injection Mode does effect is the meth flow required, by the Procede to:

1) Turn on the meth flow lights
2) Transition fully to Map2 boost/timing values

The good news is that you don't have to touch that value either. Leave it at 20% and everything will work fine just as long as everything is installed correctly.

The Boost Control Gain value (default is usually 45%) is something else completely. This value scales the Boost Control/Wastegate DC map. The higher the value, the more Wastegate DC the Procede runs for any given boost target. Some cars will benefit from higher or lower Wastegate DC values depending on mechanical variance (specifially wastegate stiffness). The good news is that the Procede has a feature called Wastegate Compensation that automatically dials this value in (+/- 5%). In rare cases (extremely loose wastegates or very high altitude) this adjustment range may max itself out (ie, +5%). If so you, you an raise Boost Control Gain from the default value of 45% to 50%. This will make it easier for the Procede to hit the boost targets if they were undershooting with the default value.

Does that make sense?

[Joshboody]

DaFish,
boost switch turns on the pump, but there's no flow until the injection valve starts DC which you can reference per the table shiv posted. Flow is directly related to this DC value and the higher the more flow. Lights won't start to blink/stay on until a certain flow. This flow value is flow injection in the user adjustments. Generally if flow injection is less (maybe 5 points) then your logged meth flow, then you should see lights on above 4000rpm, WOT, boost >13ish.

EDIT: what Shiv said

[Tzu]

Here you go shiv:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...4&postcount=13

[DaFish]

Yep thanks

[NoQuarter]

Originally Posted by Tzu

I know you know the system better. You designed it. You have to agree that understanding each and all parameters, its function, and how it affects dependent variables is of the upmost importance of form and function of mathematical prediction. Most people buy the system assuming its plug and play. It's not. That's the sad part.

I installed this on a car it was not designed for so I think it is safe to say I had a more difficult install than any 335 owner. Other than adjusting mounts and the harness to fit my car I found the really importants parts of the process to be plug and play. Just followed the instructions, checked my work, installed my upgraded Procede.

I had a few false alarms that I had to track down but all my fault. Even after me cutting up the harness, relocating the injector, figuring out my own WW connections, filter, check valve, etc the system has worked perfectly.