[inthemiddle]

Hey everyone.... could use a little help/ideas here...

Was driving to work, all was well, on the throttle full boost, backed off for a few seconds, next time on the throttle, underboost code, and getting like 1-2lbs of boost max...

Disconnected hot side of intercooler, pressurized, was just a small small small bit of air leaking out of one of the meth connections (we are talking small leak, can't be losing 19 psi through there... especially with the ASR turbos pushing the air...

checked the o-rings on both connections to the intercooler (VK intercooler, stock fittings)

replaced vacuum lines
- two by the oil filter
- the other end of those, to the bottom of the canisters
(the top of the canisters were replaced by the dealer less than a year ago, look fresh)
- and replaced the line running to each turbo (were looking ratty)

Stuck my finger in the forge DVs... pushed on em.. one was sticky... took it apart, cleaned/greased it... the other one moved pretty smoothly so i left it alone...

Still no luck....

When i hit the throttle, i can hear a whine like at least one of the turbos is spooling up... and i'd think even just one would get me SOME boost.... but i don't get any...

When i change procede maps:
- to valet - performance and sound basically stay the same
- to map 3 - exhaust does get louder (tells me the wastegates are moving)
- performance drops EVER so slightly


What's left ???

Perhaps the wastegates aren't moving far enough ?? Bad actuators ? Is it possible to replace those without pulling turbos ? didn't think there was sep. part number for them or is there ? (seems like a last resort)
(and i couldn't see both failing at once ??)

I assume the little things on the side of the engine that the vacuum lines from the actuators run up to are some sort of control solenoid thing... again... seems weird for both to crap out at the same time (again, i have like NO boost, one would give me some boost wouldn't it ??)

I pulled the procede out just to be sure, NO effect...

I guess the only thing i haven't been able to test/check is the metal pipe and rubber connector hose running to the hot side of the intercooler... (can't see too much visually, but looks basically ok.. running hands around the rubber hose I don't feel any cracks..etc... (has anyone ever had anything between the turbos and intercooler fail ???)
- can i pressurize and test that ? would be pushing air back up to the turbos.. through the turbo, and out the intake, would have to cap those off or something ???

ideas ? help ? i've spent hours on this, and it's driving me crazy... what else could it be ???

[oddjob2021]

do you have the stock actuators? or did you upgrade to the new ones?

[inthemiddle]

I have the stock ones i think... took Abid forever to ship my turbos (remember that ? i finally got them in january)... and they have all the stock actuators and rods as best as i could tell... (if i remember right there were two different sizes, like 6mm and 8mm rods or posts or something... i remember i seemed to have received one of each)

and yes, i still have rattle too..... (also, in my testing... valet mode, no rattle, map 1 or 2 or 4, i do have rattle... that's about the only difference between valet and power maps at this point ... hmmm)

overall that didn't make me all that happy since while at the time they weren't supposed to be upgraded/replaced actuators, they were at least supposed to be somewhat upgraded in terms of the arms or bushing.... Abid told me many times they were, and then i received them with no such upgrade... but i was too scared to send them back (fearing i'd never actually get them back in my hands again)

[oddjob2021]

they have all the stock actuators and rods as best as i could tell... (if i remember right there were two different sizes, like 6mm and 8mm rods or posts or something... i remember i seemed to have received one of each)

yeah, they gave you one of each i think because the turbos can be from any year manifold, just machining done. i know, i got the turbos too without the actuators if you remember? and i had to upgrade to the new ones because of the separation wall upgrade. its much harder for you i know because you're not a hop, skip and jump away.

they were at least supposed to be somewhat upgraded in terms of the arms or bushing.... Abid told me many times they were, and then i received them with no such upgrade... but i was too scared to send them back (fearing i'd never actually get them back in my hands again)

interesting, i remember hearing that too, from what i've heard from him, he said that the flapper itself is not the problem, that the assembly, where it attaches to the actuator arm is the rattle.
that's a natural fear i guess, being across the country diagonally, in all sense of the word, it's no wonder you wouldn't want to ask for a change... i'll help you out by saying that you should wait a little longer if possible as the compressor upgrade is coming, and it will be significant.

[inthemiddle]

Originally Posted by oddjob2021

had to upgrade to the new ones because of the separation wall upgrade.

interesting, i remember hearing that too, from what i've heard from him, he said that the flapper itself is not the problem, that the assembly, where it attaches to the actuator arm is the rattle.
that's a natural fear i guess, being across the country diagonally, in all sense of the word, it's no wonder you wouldn't want to ask for a change... i'll help you out by saying that you should wait a little longer if possible as the compressor upgrade is coming, and it will be significant.

separation wall upgrade ?

and yea.. the arm/rod thing is what seems to rattle, i don't even care about that really.... but i hope that i don't have an actuator issue....

wait, you are just trying to distract me from my real problem ..

any ideas on that part ?

btw... compressor upgrade or not, those things are NOT coming back out and going back unless they are broken....

[oddjob2021]

Originally Posted by inthemiddle

separation wall upgrade ?

and yea.. the arm/rod thing is what seems to rattle, i don't even care about that really.... but i hope that i don't have an actuator issue....

wait, you are just trying to distract me from my real problem ..

any ideas on that part ?

btw... compressor upgrade or not, those things are NOT coming back out and going back unless they are broken....

yeah, the separation wall upgrade is in fact a deletion of the wall that separates the turbine exhaust flow stream from the wastegate stream. in stock form (stock cartridge+bore) this wall has no impedance on the flow of the turbine. the stock turbine is small enough that it's outer (bore) wall does not come close to touching the separation wall. with turbo upgrades this wall does become a hindrance.. in fact with the asr upgrade, the wall blocks ~15% of the turbine, just from a visual standpoint. the reason they didn't delete the wall initially was because there was nothing on the market to beef up the actuators. that is until asr engineered a set themselves to address the problem and commissioned forge to manufacture them in bulk. now that they are part of the kit, the separation walls on all the exhaust mani's can be removed to increase flow efficiency. if you'd like pictures explaining this (pictures are worth 1000 words) i have many, comparing the stock turbine to the asr upgrade then comparing the first gen exhaust mani to the new one with no separation wall.

i hope you don't have an actuator issue either, but honestly man, your best bet is to get the new ones, why not? (other than finances?)

lol.. i'm not trying to distract you from anything, just explaining why i am making claims as to make my words worth their salt.

hey man that's totally up to you, i love the saying, 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' and usually abide by it, but the upgrade should be good for a significant amount of power across the band, let alone the increase in spooling characteristics. you're telling me that does not interest you? or i guess, does not entice you enough to consider upgrading?

[OpenFlash]

Take a look at the wastegate actuator linkage itself and make sure that a c-clip didn't pop off. If one of them did, the actuator arm will just move back and forth by itself while the wastegate flapper door does whatever it wants to do (ie, not make boost!). It's a long shot but it's the next step if the wastegate control system is holding full vacuum.

Shiv

[inthemiddle]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Take a look at the wastegate actuator linkage itself and make sure that a c-clip didn't pop off. If one of them did, the actuator arm will just move back and forth by itself while the wastegate flapper door does whatever it wants to do (ie, not make boost!). It's a long shot but it's the next step if the wastegate control system is holding full vacuum.

Shiv

Hey Shiv, thanks...

I've tried looking.. hard to see... will get a mirror in there or something hopefully...

Although when i change maps (valet vs 1,2..etc.. ) i do hear different behavior from the wastegates..

Have a vacuum gauge and pump both coming tomorrow so i can test a bit more and verify things with real numbers..

Also talked to Robert today (thanks Robert for calling)... and he's trying to help me a little bit..


Oddjob.... mostly it's the PITA part of getting them in/out.. that was a TON of work... and the downtime for the car (shipping back and forth) in the meantime.. and the headache it was dealing with them last time...

Then there is also the problem of... well.. i have 285s on the back right now, and i have a hard time keeping them hooked up already... can't go any wider without a wide body kit...etc...

so at this point, i'll probably do rev 3 and PWM meth... and leave it alone... 58K miles... just drive it... save any more money/effort etc and think about what the next car or project will be in a couple years

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by inthemiddle

Hey Shiv, thanks...

I've tried looking.. hard to see... will get a mirror in there or something hopefully...

Although when i change maps (valet vs 1,2..etc.. ) i do hear different behavior from the wastegates..

You could be hearing just one of the wastegates snap to attention when you change maps. While the other one just hangs out. Worth looking into

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Well if the leak is post intercooler you can get a PVC pipe with a closed end, attach an air hose to it and pressurize to 20 PSI and see if you find the leak that way. Otherwise you would need a way to pressurize both turbo's at the inlet.

[inthemiddle]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

You could be hearing just one of the wastegates snap to attention when you change maps. While the other one just hangs out. Worth looking into

Well I could see the rear one... still attached... couldn't see the front, could poke at the rod from the bottom and it was solid, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything...

swapped the intercooler and DV valves back to stock, and changed all the vacuum lines for the DVs.. and disconnected the meth vacuum/boost line...

also changed the very few remaining very short pieces of vacuum line for the wastegate control...

replaced the o-rings on the intercooler connector pipes...

stuck a flashlight up in the hot side of the intercooler hose..... couldn't see any light leak through at all (i did this in the dark, and cut off the light at the bottom... so no big leaks in the intercooler feed hose that i could see... (i'd think i'd see them since i'm not really building any boost at all... and with ASR Turbos it would have to be a decent hole to take ALL of their air... )

symptoms are all still the same... can hear turbos spin up but just don't go anywhere...

gotta be the wastegates i think... (and i'd think BOTH of them ??) all of a sudden not closing... but that just seems weird... one second they work, next second they don't...

i was hitting 19PSI just 2 seconds before i was hitting 0PSI... .. I can't imagine i'd hit 19psi on just one turbo (like if one was working and one failed for a while) and still have traction issues in 3rd.. etc..

but i also can't imagine both failing at the same instant

vacuum gauge and pump coming tomorrow for further troubleshooting... still no clue... this is crazy...

[cwn23]

Bro..I feel for you and I can imagine how frustrating it is for you..Did you try resetting your ecu, maybe it went haywire and somehow is causing this...re-install the Procede and goto command center and reset the ECU.

[inthemiddle]

Originally Posted by cwn23

Bro..I feel for you and I can imagine how frustrating it is for you..Did you try resetting your ecu, maybe it went haywire and somehow is causing this...re-install the Procede and goto command center and reset the ECU.

haven't tried that... but i did pull the procede out, have the same problem with and without it in there...

as i understand it, the procede does it's own boost control/mapping.. so if i have this with and without it in there, I *think* that it eliminates software on either the procede or bmw end...

i appreciate the idea though.. and could still try it... i've cleared the codes with the BT Scanner... .. haven't tried any adaption resets or anything with procede yet...

something sure is weird...

[oddjob2021]

i was hitting 19PSI just 2 seconds before i was hitting 0PSI...

this part leads me to believe you ripped an actuator diaphragm. i maybe wrong but it sounds like it. so if it is the case, you'll need to remove the turbos (funny considering your reply to me) lol, unless its the rear one, that one is swappable from the top. this will be an easy test with the pump you have on the way.

[lamia2super]

Originally Posted by oddjob2021

this part leads me to believe you ripped an actuator diaphragm. i maybe wrong but it sounds like it. so if it is the case, you'll need to remove the turbos (funny considering your reply to me) lol, unless its the rear one, that one is swappable from the top. this will be an easy test with the pump you have on the way.

+1 but he has the stock actuators so idk why that would happened. It does sound similar to our problem tho when we ripped our diaphragm no thanks to Forge

[inthemiddle]

Originally Posted by lamia2super

+1 but he has the stock actuators so idk why that would happened. It does sound similar to our problem tho when we ripped our diaphragm no thanks to Forge

you had aftermarket actuators ? from forge or ?


I'm even more confused now....

got the gauge, no pump yet, not sure why it's not here, but whatever....

hooked up the gauge to the vacuum line that feeds the actuators, started car:
- gradually, but swiftly, builds to around 10-15 or something.. (can't remember)
- driving - light throttle it's at like 1 or so
- decelerating, closed throttle at like 10
- on the throttle, holds 20 solid
(and can hear turbos spin)

rev'ing in neutral... it does get up to 20 as soon as i hit the gas, but i have to let off really quick cause of the lightweight flywheel :-)

moved the gauge over to the DV/intake side of things...
- on throttle 0 boost.. on the throttle, no vacuum really but no boost at all...
- idling 15" of vacuum or so which
- shut car off - the 15 drops to 0 over about 1-2 seconds
(should it bleed off that fast ?????)

just don't see how a single actuator failure would result in 0 boost

waiting for pump to confirm actuators actually move when vacuum is applied...

the vacuum appearing to be applied correctly rules out computer issues....

only things i can think of are:
- neither actuator moving any significant amount
- a mouse crawled into both wastegates (at 80mph) and is holding them open
- bad bad boost/intake leak...
- question could it be after the throttle body ? I did pressurize the intercooler to the throttle body... and couldn't find leaks... is the throttle valve air-tight when closed ? i'd think not ?? i would have been testing up to the valves basically right ?????

[inthemiddle]

i mean am i right in thinking it shouldn't be a mechanical issue at either turbo since i'd expect to get some boost....

how could i get 18-19psi one second, 2 seconds later get nothing... from anything other than a massive intake leak...

if one actuator/wastegate failed, i should still get SOME boost from the other turbo right ???

[oddjob2021]

Originally Posted by inthemiddle

i mean am i right in thinking it shouldn't be a mechanical issue at either turbo since i'd expect to get some boost....

how could i get 18-19psi one second, 2 seconds later get nothing... from anything other than a massive intake leak...

if one actuator/wastegate failed, i should still get SOME boost from the other turbo right ???

no, you wont build any boost (maybe 1 psi on the manifold) if one diaphragm (on one actuator) is ripped. it happened to me because of an assembly error forge made. it has since been remedied but it's of no relevance because you don't have them. i'll PM you the post i made on another forum so u can see the similarities in your situation. you would be the first case i've heard of with asr turbos that had a stock actuator diaphragm rip. from your claims and tests i'm nearly certain this is the problem. but as i said, once the pump arrives just hook it up to both actuators one at a time and see if they hold vacuum. it will be obvious if one is ripped after the test.

[lamia2super]

^what he said. we both had the same issue and both our cars had the new actuators installed more-less the same week

[inthemiddle]

Originally Posted by lamia2super

^what he said. we both had the same issue and both our cars had the new actuators installed more-less the same week

wow.. frustrating.. and annoying....

I had also tried disconnecting the vacuum line to each turbo (one at a time) and sealing off the system without one or the other... to effectively try to only trigger one turbo at a time...

that didn't work either... not sure if that's a valid test... but yea...

oh.. fedex driving up my street as we speak... i hope it's for me

[lamia2super]

Originally Posted by inthemiddle

wow.. frustrating.. and annoying....

I had also tried disconnecting the vacuum line to each turbo (one at a time) and sealing off the system without one or the other... to effectively try to only trigger one turbo at a time...

that didn't work either... not sure if that's a valid test... but yea...

oh.. fedex driving up my street as we speak... i hope it's for me

its w/e...what can you do? once you start modifying stuff shit is bond to happen

[inthemiddle]

Update.... actuators hold vacuum fine... at the front with a mirror i can at least see the rod move in a nice linear fashion, and at the rear, i can watch the rod move and wastegate close....

so.. either a giant intake leak... that somehow hides when i pressurize from the hot side of the intercooler (getting up to at least 15-20 PSI before my homemade tester blew apart ... also i put a valve in the top of the tester, not just a compressor connection.. so i use a tire filler, and it doesn't add air that fast... it wasn't from super sudden pressurization...
- suppose it could be a crack in the manifold or something ???? i know i'm reaching and i can't feel any air running around there
- crack/leak between the turbos and the intercooler... no light leaks in the dark when lit from inside...

I guess it's time to pull the DPs to see what the wastegates look like inside ????
- closing but something stopping them from sealing ?
- whatever bushing through the housing completely gone, making it not seal well...

BUT... with those thoughts... when the wastegates are wide open (map 3 0 boost mode) you don't hear the turbos spin...
and on map 1,2,4.. you DO hear them spin up... and decently quick.. so it seems that the wastegates work well enough to make them spin... but WTF is the air going ?????

also tried holding vacuum on the actuators (both at the same time) with the hand pump and starting/driving... SAME PROBLEM still... was just like they were connected factory, some spinning noise, no boost...

grr