[BavarianMW]

?

[scalbert]

I suspect we will start seeing some in 1 - 2 years.

[Mikes12985]

Originally Posted by scalbert

I suspect we will start seeing some in 1 - 2 years.

1-2 years??. More like under a year, theres already been some people doing turbo upgrades on there own. Mike.

[Terry335]

I hope soon!

[BoostedBMW]

Honestly, after owning a turbo car and a BMW, I could never see myself doing a turbo upgrade on this car just because they are so damn finicky when it comes to small problems here and there that always seem to require service. I don't know, maybe its just me.

[533ogetnom]

Originally Posted by Mikes12985

1-2 years??. More like under a year, theres already been some people doing turbo upgrades on there own. Mike.

people doing custom work yea thats always available for every car so thats not what the OP is talking about, hes talking about kits and such


upgrading the turbos is not a simple process like it is on a lot of other cars

plus the N54 is a crazy expensive engine, fucking with it is not the wisest decision

[chbrules]

People turbo charge ferraris.

It's all depending on how much of a risk you want and money you have. Some people have more money than they know what to do with.

As for how long, maybe early next year you may see comercially availible kits? I wouldn't count on it really since this isn't your average cheapo rice rocket.

[cadbimmer]

i suspect next spring. but they will be pricey.

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by Mikes12985

1-2 years??. More like under a year, theres already been some people doing turbo upgrades on there own. Mike.

Out of those people doing their own turbo upgrades, is there at least one person that has successfully upgraded their turbo?

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Mikes12985

1-2 years??. More like under a year, theres already been some people doing turbo upgrades on there own. Mike.

For a solid and marketable kit which is PnP; 1 - 2 years from now should be valid.

Sure, there will be others who custom make something but it is a one off. The true plug in kits take more time.

[RichP]

1-2 years seems like reasonable R&D; realize there are many unknowns once those turbos get swapped out for a big ol' snail. The N54 is a relatively high compression motor (for a turbo) so how much boost it can handle is going to be interesting to see. In addition, these cars already borderline on overheating heating issues.

A turbo upgrade may be VERY expensive on this car (additional/replacement radiator and/or oil cooler, thicker headgasket, upgraded piston/connecting rods) Once a few get the bigger turbos in, we will begin to see what is the next "weakest link" in the 335 tuning chain.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by RichP

1-2 years seems like reasonable R&D; realize there are many unknowns once those turbos get swapped out for a big ol' snail. The N54 is a relatively high compression motor (for a turbo) so how much boost it can handle is going to be interesting to see. In addition, these cars already borderline on overheating heating issues.

A turbo upgrade may be VERY expensive on this car (additional/replacement radiator and/or oil cooler, thicker headgasket, upgraded piston/connecting rods) Once a few get the bigger turbos in, we will begin to see what is the next "weakest link" in the 335 tuning chain.

I wonder how much boost this engine will be able to handle with the direct injection. I thought the Audi 2.7t had a high CR at 9.3:1. However, people have been able to run nearly 30 PSI (taper to about 26 PSI) on the stock CR. With the benefit of direct injection, I am guessing 20 PSI may be possible with upgraded snails. Cooling may be another matter and we will need to see what the outcome is there.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see some turbo upgrade kits producing 400 - 450 reliable WHP in about two years. For me, and I say this now (seems I always go back on my word when it comes to modifications on my vehicles), I will be happy with 350 WHP. I have had more and just could not use it for my typical commute. But it sure is nice to have when the chance comes to use it.

[533ogetnom]

Originally Posted by RichP

1-2 years seems like reasonable R&D; realize there are many unknowns once those turbos get swapped out for a big ol' snail. The N54 is a relatively high compression motor (for a turbo) so how much boost it can handle is going to be interesting to see. In addition, these cars already borderline on overheating heating issues.

A turbo upgrade may be VERY expensive on this car (additional/replacement radiator and/or oil cooler, thicker headgasket, upgraded piston/connecting rods) Once a few get the bigger turbos in, we will begin to see what is the next "weakest link" in the 335 tuning chain.

the cars with oil coolers have no problems with heat...

[astris]

Originally Posted by scalbert

I wonder how much boost this engine will be able to handle with the direct injection. I thought the Audi 2.7t had a high CR at 9.3:1. However, people have been able to run nearly 30 PSI (taper to about 26 PSI) on the stock CR. With the benefit of direct injection, I am guessing 20 PSI may be possible with upgraded snails. Cooling may be another matter and we will need to see what the outcome is there.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see some turbo upgrade kits producing 400 - 450 reliable WHP in about two years. For me, and I say this now (seems I always go back on my word when it comes to modifications on my vehicles), I will be happy with 350 WHP. I have had more and just could not use it for my typical commute. But it sure is nice to have when the chance comes to use it.

The B7 A4 Audi's 2.0t fsi engines can handle around 18-19 psi safely. Not sure of the limits since I haven't really browsed those forums in a while. The 2.0t fsi engine is somewhat similar to the 335 since it uses direct injection with crazy high fuel pressure and a relatively high compression.

Just like with the 2.0t fsi engines, the issue with larger turbos on the 335 is going to be fueling. Larger injectors are just not going to be available and we already no the current fuels pumps aren't the greatest.

[paulGT3]

The problem with Turbo upgrades is if you upgrade the Turbo then really the fuel and boost maps need to be changed to accomodate the bigger blowers . Then really the intercooler needs be bigger so its not a simple process. One good thing about turobs is the manufacturer usually leaves alot of HP on the table for upgrades. Normally aspirated cars usually dont have that much room left.

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by paulGT3

One good thing about turobs is the manufacturer usually leaves alot of HP on the table for upgrades. Normally aspirated cars usually dont have that much room left.

Doesn't HP potential really come down to the strength of the weakest powertrain component? Turbo or no turbo, sometimes these components are "overbuilt", making HP gains relatively cheap and powertrain life longer under more stressful conditions. However, sometimes they are specifically built for certain tolerances to save on cost, space or weight.

I'd be interested in your reasoning as to why you think the S54 has less potential for more HP than the N54, for example? From the manuf. they both produce about the same HP. However, presumably, due to differences in design, one has more HP potential than the other.

Granted, the S54 engine has slightly more displacement than the N54, however Horsepower Freaks has a bolt-on turbo kit for the E46-M3 that makes 500RWHP (620BHP) @ only 5.5psi. On race gas, the power goes up to 600RWHP (750BHP) @ 11psi.

[RichP]

Originally Posted by 533ogetnom

the cars with oil coolers have no problems with heat...

There is talk that cylinder 4-5 have some specific cooling issues as power output gets to 380-400 crank hp. Limitations of the engine design that oil coolers and radiators may not be able to resolve.

As its stated, fueling is an issue too. Replacement injectors arent as plentiful as in other tuning setups, and changing injectors requires ECU tuning, not a piggyback.

Im not saying it wont happen, just it wont happen by simply putting bigger turbos on the car and a little tuning.

The S54 is a more robust engine. Iron block, built to a higher spec.

I personally wouldnt want to upgrade the turbos on the 335; I like the lack of boost lag, and the car hardly can hookup in the first few years even stock.

[superman]

Bigger turbo equals new fuel pump, bigger injectors, bigger intercooler, tuning, full exhaust probably, tuning, probably new intake, and that's just for starters. If I threw on new turbos I wouldnt want 400 whp on this car. Considering we can with tune and exhaust get to 350 whp. Bigger turbos should get you to 450 or beyond. Personally I have seen what a money pit it can be to first put all the money into a car to upgrade it, then if you have problems and blow the motor. This isn't a subaru, this is a bmw engine. The cost for failing parts and everything is huge. You also have to figure in new clutch for the power, maybe even upgraded tranny, I don't know how strong they are in this car. Not just the engine, but the drivetrain can go. If you add it all up, it could cost you more money then you spent on the car just to do this upgrade. To me, if you going to risk that much money, why not buy a car with that power, and reliability.

Chris

[BoostedBMW]

Originally Posted by zenmaster

Doesn't HP potential really come down to the strength of the weakest powertrain component? Turbo or no turbo, sometimes these components are "overbuilt", making HP gains relatively cheap and powertrain life longer under more stressful conditions. However, sometimes they are specifically built for certain tolerances to save on cost, space or weight.

I'd be interested in your reasoning as to why you think the S54 has less potential for more HP than the N54, for example? From the manuf. they both produce about the same HP. However, presumably, due to differences in design, one has more HP potential than the other.

Granted, the S54 engine has slightly more displacement than the N54, however Horsepower Freaks has a bolt-on turbo kit for the E46-M3 that makes 500RWHP (620BHP) @ only 5.5psi. On race gas, the power goes up to 600RWHP (750BHP) @ 11psi.

Forget about power potential. Have you ever taken a NA car and made it turbo? Its a never ending headache to get the car to run like stock without any type of rattle/vibrations/heat issues, the list goes on and on. There is a HUGE difference in modding car that came turbo from the factory and modding a NA car that was turbocharged. I'd like to see how reliable that E46 M3 is with 500whp, I know that my friends SC'd M3 had lots of issues. Just my 2 cents from what I have experienced with my own cars.

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by BoostedBMW

Have you ever taken a NA car and made it turbo?

No, but I've seen it done cleanly on many different sportscar platforms.

Its a never ending headache to get the car to run like stock without any type of rattle/vibrations/heat issues, the list goes on and on. There is a HUGE difference in modding car that came turbo from the factory and modding a NA car that was turbocharged.

That begs the question of what components on the stock N54 powertain would need to be upgraded to accomodate a turbo upgrade, for a particular power output. I'd say it could easily be an equal or lesser headache upgrading a NA car to turbo vs upgrading a turbo car - especially when you are dealing with specialized, brand new components. For example, you'd need more fuel flow with bigger turbo. With the 335i, you're dealing with a special direct injection setup with a special fuel pump. How easy it is to change stock injectors? Will the flow rate of your fuel pump accomodate the demands?
You could easily need to reflash the ECU or more likely, bypass it somehow with your own management computer, not a piggyback. Migraine.

However, much of that headache goes away from decent R&D from the turbo kit (or SC kit) manuf. The Turbofreaks E46 M3 setup is a testament to how easy it is to upgrade an NA engine. I highly doubt you could do any better, as far as what you are talking about with the resulting rattle/vibrations/heat issues, if you started with the E90 335i turbo engine and wanted to produce similar gains.

[BoostedBMW]

Originally Posted by zenmaster

No, but I've seen it done cleanly on many different sportscar platforms.


That begs the question of what components on the stock N54 powertain would need to be upgraded to accomodate a turbo upgrade, for a particular power output. I'd say it could easily be an equal or lesser headache upgrading a NA car to turbo vs upgrading a turbo car - especially when you are dealing with specialized, brand new components. For example, you'd need more fuel flow with bigger turbo. With the 335i, you're dealing with a special direct injection setup with a special fuel pump. How easy it is to change stock injectors? Will the flow rate of your fuel pump accomodate the demands?
You could easily need to reflash the ECU or more likely, bypass it somehow with your own management computer, not a piggyback. Migraine.

However, much of that headache goes away from decent R&D from the turbo kit (or SC kit) manuf. The Turbofreaks E46 M3 setup is a testament to how easy it is to upgrade an NA engine. I highly doubt you could do any better, as far as what you are talking about with the resulting rattle/vibrations/heat issues, if you started with the E90 335i turbo engine and wanted to produce similar gains.

I see what you are saying, but coming from my own experience in turbocharging an S2000, it is definitely not just an easy bolt-on without having to work out many problems along the way. There are at least five different companies who all make turbo kits for that platform and none of them are an easy upgrade if you are looking to make your car drive like stock. You were talking about an E46 M3 so I was just pointing out how its not so easy as it may seem, but with the 335 it is a different animal. I have never worked on the fuel system so I can't comment there (plus the fact that there is nothing to work on at this point, nothing is available), but when you have the initial hardware there of a turbo car from the factory(manifolds/turbos/downpipes/chargepipes/FMIC) it helps to solve a ton of clearance issues that will cause problems down the road opposed to putting all of these parts on to a NA car that was never designed for them. This is just what I have seen from my own experience. If you believe that it will be much easier to turn a NA car into a turbo beast then you should go for it and buy an E46 M3. I have been there and done that, and won't do it again.

[RichP]

BoostedBMW knows what he is talking about. I have experience FI'ing several different cars that started as NA, and it is ALWAYS harder to get running right than starting with a turbo, and 99% of the time they never run as well as one would like. Peoples definition of running well and performing well varies dramatically online, no matter how clean it looks.