[TT3 iN NyC]

Thought I'd ask for some input. Summer is rolling around and now that I'm FBO, I was wondering if an upgraded oil cooler will be needed considering I'm running PROcede aggressive stage 3 maps.

How will the stock oil cooler hold up against the summer heat?

I don't track the car at all and drive weekends only since I use public transportation to get to work during the week.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

[themyst]

I have no problems with the stock oil cooler. Then again I don't road race. Some highway pulls you'll be fine.

[taylors335]

i have a small cooler i added and it helps , deff wouldnt hurt to add one !. Cooler oil temps = longer engine life !

[TT3 iN NyC]

Thanks fellas. Let's see how high the temps go during the coming weeks.

[robc1976]

I have the Strett stage 2 with 180 degree thermostat and my oil temps have not gone over 200 it got close to 200 when I did 5-6 races. I used to not have a oil cooler and daily driving it would be in the 245-250 easily.

[jippii ensio]

Do you get limps because of too hot oil temps? If yes, upgrade.

[TT3 iN NyC]

Originally Posted by jippii ensio

Do you get limps because of too hot oil temps? If yes, upgrade.

Nope, never got a limp. =)

[RoundelM3]

I have an ER "Sport" oil cooler, about 3.5 times larger than stock. Here in Central Texas, our summers are brutal, and I'm also running a tune. Last summer, before I installed it, I'd regularly see oil temp hit 240-250 in "city" driving (under 45mph) and about 235-245 on the highway when the outside temp was 100 degrees or more. So far this year, I've run it hard on a couple of 90-degree days and couldn't get the temp over 230. I'd think you'll be ok where you live, but a bigger cooler certainly wouldn't hurt anything.

[JamesM3M5]

You only need an oil cooler upgrade (if you already have the factory cooler) if you track the car or live in brutal heat and drive hard. 250-260 in the pan is fine. 270+ is where the ECU starts to pull back, and 300+ is where it goes to limp, IIRC. Modern high quality synthetics (i.e. not BMW dealer oil) can take the heat easily. If you're seeing high temps in the summer on the street in traffic, a larger oil cooler will probably do nothing for you. At speed or on track, however, you will see great benefits.

Oil should be kept at least 210F. 200F is a little "cold" for oil, especially for power.

[TT3 iN NyC]

Originally Posted by JamesM3M5

You only need an oil cooler upgrade (if you already have the factory cooler) if you track the car or live in brutal heat and drive hard. 250-260 in the pan is fine. 270+ is where the ECU starts to pull back, and 300+ is where it goes to limp, IIRC. Modern high quality synthetics (i.e. not BMW dealer oil) can take the heat easily. If you're seeing high temps in the summer on the street in traffic, a larger oil cooler will probably do nothing for you. At speed or on track, however, you will see great benefits.

Oil should be kept at least 210F. 200F is a little "cold" for oil, especially for power.

great! thanks for the info, very informative. i don't think i ever went above the 250 mark, according to the gauge. I'm using Mobil 1 0W-40

http://www.mobiloil.com/usa-english/....aspx?option=1

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by JamesM3M5

Oil should be kept at least 210F. 200F is a little "cold" for oil, especially for power.

I kinda want to debate this. My findings and the general concensus from the owner of the Dyno I use is that the most power will be produced when oil temps are between 170 and 180. Anything over 180 and you'll start losing power. This was very evident from my past 350z, which was NA and had extremely consistent dynos, most times within 1hp of eachother--and it was noticeable that power dropped off above 180, and especially after 210. (only 5-7hp, but still noteworthy)

We're talking Dynojet power here- so not 100% related to 'real' power, but still close.

[robc1976]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

I kinda want to debate this. My findings and the general concensus from the owner of the Dyno I use is that the most power will be produced when oil temps are between 170 and 180. Anything over 180 and you'll start losing power. This was very evident from my past 350z, which was NA and had extremely consistent dynos, most times within 1hp of eachother--and it was noticeable that power dropped off above 180, and especially after 210. (only 5-7hp, but still noteworthy)

We're talking Dynojet power here- so not 100% related to 'real' power, but still close.

I agree 100% Strett has ran many tests on this, probably the reason your high end Porsche, Ferrari, ect run oil temps of 190.

[JamesM3M5]

I've heard the exact opposite from other engine builders and tuners. They pretty much state that the hot oil - 210-220F going back into the engine - is at its proper viscosity for lubrication without pumping losses, while colder water temps - 170-180F as it exits the head - help retain power. Drag racers doing dyno runs on their engine dynos were running water temps really cold, 110-140F depending on the builder and engine, and noticed power drop as water temps rose every dyno run. NASCAR teams will chill the water and heat the oil REALLY hot for qualifying runs which are only 2 laps. As the qualifying progresses, the water temp comes up and the oil temp comes down.

Also every engine has a slightly different window in which oil temps and coolant temps will produce ideal power and lubrication properties. The factory engineers put in a 110C oil thermostat in the N54 probably for fuel economy reasons, same reason why new economy cars use 0W20 water-like oil. Draining one of those is like letting alcohol flow out of the oil pan. I don't think oil temps of 240-250F in the oil pan - the hottest part - is a danger to either the oil or the engine especially with the higher grades of synthetic oils we have available today.

Your 350Z - were the water temps also climbing? That may also be a large factor in power losses as the motor heated up. It takes a lot more work to get oil temps up than water temps. I tell club racers all day that coolant temps over 80C/176F is where power starts to drop off, as evidenced from guys with inadequate radiator ducting who see 200-215F at the end of a race and can't hang with the cars up front without cooling problems.

[robc1976]

Originally Posted by JamesM3M5

I've heard the exact opposite from other engine builders and tuners. They pretty much state that the hot oil - 210-220F going back into the engine - is at its proper viscosity for lubrication without pumping losses, while colder water temps - 170-180F as it exits the head - help retain power. Drag racers doing dyno runs on their engine dynos were running water temps really cold, 110-140F depending on the builder and engine, and noticed power drop as water temps rose every dyno run. NASCAR teams will chill the water and heat the oil REALLY hot for qualifying runs which are only 2 laps. As the qualifying progresses, the water temp comes up and the oil temp comes down.

Also every engine has a slightly different window in which oil temps and coolant temps will produce ideal power and lubrication properties. The factory engineers put in a 110C oil thermostat in the N54 probably for fuel economy reasons, same reason why new economy cars use 0W20 water-like oil. Draining one of those is like letting alcohol flow out of the oil pan. I don't think oil temps of 240-250F in the oil pan - the hottest part - is a danger to either the oil or the engine especially with the higher grades of synthetic oils we have available today.

Your 350Z - were the water temps also climbing? That may also be a large factor in power losses as the motor heated up. It takes a lot more work to get oil temps up than water temps. I tell club racers all day that coolant temps over 80C/176F is where power starts to drop off, as evidenced from guys with inadequate radiator ducting who see 200-215F at the end of a race and can't hang with the cars up front without cooling problems.

I got the response below from Strett:

This is an age old misconception by folks that are misinformed. Some folks will claim oil must be 210 degrees or higher to burn off condensation. But what these folks don't consider is that the oil temp gauge on your car is not measuring the hottest points inside your engine where instantaneous oil temps can reach far more than 210. Temperatures inside the crankcase, inside turbos and bottom side of the pistons can reach twice that.

The idea oil temp range is 190-210 degrees, once above ~210-220 degrees oil starts breaking down at twice the rate. You or anyone can call the engineers at Mobil 1 and they will tell you the same.

[JamesM3M5]

Originally Posted by robc1976

I got the response below from Strett:

This is an age old misconception by folks that are misinformed. Some folks will claim oil must be 210 degrees or higher to burn off condensation. But what these folks don't consider is that the oil temp gauge on your car is not measuring the hottest points inside your engine where instantaneous oil temps can reach far more than 210. Temperatures inside the crankcase, inside turbos and bottom side of the pistons can reach twice that.

The idea oil temp range is 190-210 degrees, once above ~210-220 degrees oil starts breaking down at twice the rate. You or anyone can call the engineers at Mobil 1 and they will tell you the same.

Interesting, since customer oil analysis from a multitude of engines in greatly varying conditions shows no viscosity breakdown or other ill effects of running at much higher temps. This includes dedicated race cars both at club and pro levels, street cars, track cars, turbo and NA. And all those N54s running around with oil constantly at 230F+ in the pan are scoring bearings and burning up cams all the time, right?

[jippii ensio]

Originally Posted by JamesM3M5

You only need an oil cooler upgrade (if you already have the factory cooler) if you track the car or live in brutal heat and drive hard. 250-260 in the pan is fine. 270+ is where the ECU starts to pull back, and 300+ is where it goes to limp, IIRC. Modern high quality synthetics (i.e. not BMW dealer oil) can take the heat easily. If you're seeing high temps in the summer on the street in traffic, a larger oil cooler will probably do nothing for you. At speed or on track, however, you will see great benefits.

Oil should be kept at least 210F. 200F is a little "cold" for oil, especially for power.

+1

[jippii ensio]

Originally Posted by JamesM3M5

I've heard the exact opposite from other engine builders and tuners. They pretty much state that the hot oil - 210-220F going back into the engine - is at its proper viscosity for lubrication without pumping losses, while colder water temps - 170-180F as it exits the head - help retain power. Drag racers doing dyno runs on their engine dynos were running water temps really cold, 110-140F depending on the builder and engine, and noticed power drop as water temps rose every dyno run. NASCAR teams will chill the water and heat the oil REALLY hot for qualifying runs which are only 2 laps. As the qualifying progresses, the water temp comes up and the oil temp comes down.

Also every engine has a slightly different window in which oil temps and coolant temps will produce ideal power and lubrication properties. The factory engineers put in a 110C oil thermostat in the N54 probably for fuel economy reasons, same reason why new economy cars use 0W20 water-like oil. Draining one of those is like letting alcohol flow out of the oil pan. I don't think oil temps of 240-250F in the oil pan - the hottest part - is a danger to either the oil or the engine especially with the higher grades of synthetic oils we have available today.

Your 350Z - were the water temps also climbing? That may also be a large factor in power losses as the motor heated up. It takes a lot more work to get oil temps up than water temps. I tell club racers all day that coolant temps over 80C/176F is where power starts to drop off, as evidenced from guys with inadequate radiator ducting who see 200-215F at the end of a race and can't hang with the cars up front without cooling problems.

Exactly!

[jippii ensio]

Originally Posted by robc1976

I got the response below from Strett:

This is an age old misconception by folks that are misinformed. Some folks will claim oil must be 210 degrees or higher to burn off condensation. But what these folks don't consider is that the oil temp gauge on your car is not measuring the hottest points inside your engine where instantaneous oil temps can reach far more than 210. Temperatures inside the crankcase, inside turbos and bottom side of the pistons can reach twice that.

The idea oil temp range is 190-210 degrees, once above ~210-220 degrees oil starts breaking down at twice the rate. You or anyone can call the engineers at Mobil 1 and they will tell you the same.

I believe you mean Stett. They don't have a clue. First, the condensation is not what we are discussing about here. Second, the BMW specs engine will not start to break down at twice the rate at 210-220 degrees. Third, Mobil 1 should not be used for N54 and why should anyone call them as they don't provide the oil for N54 and they don't know as much about Castrol oil properties as Castrol engineers.

High oil temps reduce losses as said by James already. N54, and all modern BMW engines are designed to run very hot in purpose. The thermostats are designed by BMW engineers knowing their engines and specifying the oils to match. Who do you trust, Stett, or BMW engineers?

[oshusttoley]

i live in NJ, got stock oil cooler, never see my car go over 250. even after pulls at the track, just hit 250. But im basically stock =P

[benzy89]

Originally Posted by robc1976

I have the Strett stage 2 with 180 degree thermostat and my oil temps have not gone over 200 it got close to 200 when I did 5-6 races. I used to not have a oil cooler and daily driving it would be in the 245-250 easily.

robc, when & where did you buy your STETT oil cooler upgrade?? I can't find it on their website and am shopping around to upgrade.