[BMWdrmz]

I know the 335 high engine temps have been discussed and that we all agree that the temps are a bit on the high side. However, do you think the cooling system could be a factor in this? I was reading oneof my old C&D mags (March 07) and there was an article in there called the "The Day (and Night) of the Diesel where a couple of 335i diesel cars were being campaigned for the 25 hour at Thunderhill. One of the two cars suffered catastrophic engine failure due to overheating. The problem was traced back to the cooling system requiring careful bleeding and topping off. After several iterations of this the system functioned properly. Unfortunately there no indications of the engine temps indicated in the article.

The second reason I bring this up is that before my last track day I had my system flushed and topped off BMW coling mixture plus Red line water wetter. During my track day, my temps didn't get above 250. However, I've noticed that my temps have creeped up to around 260 in osme cases in stop and go daily driving. Do you think it any real merit in flushing the cooling system and using a mixture mentioned above before and after a track session or am I being paranoid? Please no flaming, just looking for some informed opinions.

[S4to335]

Originally Posted by BMWdrmz

I know the 335 high engine temps have been discussed and that we all agree that the temps are a bit on the high side. However, do you think the cooling system could be a factor in this? I was reading oneof my old C&D mags (March 07) and there was an article in there called the "The Day (and Night) of the Diesel where a couple of 335i diesel cars were being campaigned for the 25 hour at Thunderhill. One of the two cars suffered catastrophic engine failure due to overheating. The problem was traced back to the cooling system requiring careful bleeding and topping off. After several iterations of this the system functioned properly. Unfortunately there no indications of the engine temps indicated in the article.

The second reason I bring this up is that before my last track day I had my system flushed and topped off BMW coling mixture plus Red line water wetter. During my track day, my temps didn't get above 250. However, I've noticed that my temps have creeped up to around 260 in osme cases in stop and go daily driving. Do you think it any real merit in flushing the cooling system and using a mixture mentioned above before and after a track session or am I being paranoid? Please no flaming, just looking for some informed opinions.

I really dont thing water wetter works with the coolant in your car. I used water wetter with regular water in my race car..and it works well there..but I dont think it works with the glycol in the antifreeze/coolant. I would advise against it.

[2e9x's]

In the case of the 335i isn't the issue oil temp vs water temp? I understand what you are saying, and it could never hurt to make sure your coolant is properly bled.

Frankly I have wondered about this too. Could an improperly bled cooling system be contributing to high oil temps?

I for one would like to see somebody offer an additional external oil cooler kit for the e9x cars.

[bartman32]

I was at a meeting with Dinan and he was explaining the issue with the temps in the e90 engines. He said that BMW made the area where the coolant or oil goes (sorry not an engine expert and I honestly forgot if it was oil or water that was the problem) through in these engines smaller so that more liquid would push through faster and therefore continue to cool the engine. However it doesn't work quite like that because there is less liquid in the area so the liquid that is there heats up much faster which is why he says they are having problems with the engine. He said the first thing they are working on is a larger cooler.

[DrewKo]

Originally Posted by bartman32

He said the first thing they are working on is a larger cooler.

Do you know if he meant larger oil cooler or intercooler? Probably oil cooler bec. i doubt there is room for a larger intercooler.

[RMRC]

With regard to coolant temps I think there may an issue of excess coolant temps in the Steptronic cars. Attached are two coolant charts (from another thread back in early June), the first of an E90 335i Step paddle shifter and the second of an E92 335i manual. This data was collected on the same day at the same driving school in southern CA. Two things jump right out when you compare the two charts. First the E90 step coolant runs MUCH hotter and second it's clear where the E90 step goes into limp mode at around 16mins. The E90 driver pulled into the pits and then went back out on track driving at 80% to avoid another limp mode in the session. Both cars had the oil cooler.

[2e9x's]

Originally Posted by reb03

With regard to coolant temps I think there may an issue of excess coolant temps in the Steptronic cars. Attached are two coolant charts (from another thread back in early June), the first of an E90 335i Step paddle shifter and the second of an E92 335i manual. This data was collected on the same day at the same driving school in southern CA. Two things jump right out when you compare the two charts. First the E90 step coolant runs MUCH hotter and second it's clear where the E90 step goes into limp mode at around 16mins. The E90 driver pulled into the pits and then went back out on track driving at 80% to avoid another limp mode in the session. Both cars had the oil cooler.

Interesting stuff...makes me glad (once again) that I got the 6-speed.

However it calls into question that video from Car and Driver in which the 6-speed went into limp home because of heat. That even happened at Streets of Willow which is not really a motor track like big willow.

Any thoughts?

[RMRC]

Originally Posted by White05X3

Interesting stuff...makes me glad (once again) that I got the 6-speed.

However it calls into question that video from Car and Driver in which the 6-speed went into limp home because of heat. That even happened at Streets of Willow which is not really a motor track like big willow.

Any thoughts?

Did the Car and Driver car have the oil cooler? Both of the cars in the charts had the cooler which leads many that were there (Big Willow) to believe we have a separate cooling issue with these cars...

Do you have a link to the Car and Driver video? I haven't seen this and this is the first I've heard of a 6MT car overheating.

[OC Guy]

It did not have an oil cooler, the car was supplied by Infiniti.

[Div4our]

Originally Posted by OC 335i

the car was supplied by Infiniti.

key words right there, also it was in Arizona (lots of heat), and also at the Infiniti test track.

[2e9x's]

http://www.motortrend.com/av/roadtes...arison_part_2/

This video was shot at Streets of Willow. Note a few things...the test car was a 6-speed and had sport package. Those two items suggest to me that the car did have an oil cooler. Also note the New Jersey license plate on the BMW and the California plate on the Nissan. That leads me to believe that BMW supplied the car but I could be wrong.

One thing I just caught in reviewing this video...when the car overheated (note it was NOT oil temps per the narrator) the driver reached over and turned the A/C off...I wonder if that had anything to do with it?

And sorry for my error above...it was MT and not C & D...

[RMRC]

Originally Posted by White05X3

http://www.motortrend.com/av/roadtes...arison_part_2/

This video was shot at Streets of Willow. Note a few things...the test car was a 6-speed and had sport package. Those two items suggest to me that the car did have an oil cooler. Also note the New Jersey license plate on the BMW and the California plate on the Nissan. That leads me to believe that BMW supplied the car but I could be wrong.

One thing I just caught in reviewing this video...when the car overheated (note it was NOT oil temps per the narrator) the driver reached over and turned the A/C off...I wonder if that had anything to do with it?

And sorry for my error above...it was MT and not C & D...

Confirmed then! It also happens to the 6MT if driven hard on track. This is EXACTLY what happened to the 335i Step at Big Willow and at roughly the same time on track (3-4 laps). Every time the Step limped it was in the middle of turn 8 or 9 and then suddenly there was nothing. Revs were held at roughly 4k and there was no power. Time to pull into the pits. What a disappointment BMW would release a car that can’t take more than 3 or four laps on a track without limping to the pits. My guess is they are working feverishly on a fix as this is a major blemish on an otherwise hot new model.

Thanks for the post!

[sg335]

So what is the answer to fixing this problem? Is the computer threshold for coolant temp set too low? Is it charge air intake temp limits? Some tuner must have an answer as they would have had to also experience this at the track.

[RMRC]

Originally Posted by sg335

So what is the answer to fixing this problem? Is the computer threshold for coolant temp set too low? Is it charge air intake temp limits? Some tuner must have an answer as they would have had to also experience this at the track.

Could be either of those. Though I doubt the threshold is set too low but rather there simply isn't enough cooling capacity. Bigger radiator...bigger intercooler...? There is no fix for this yet.

[RMRC]

Originally Posted by OC 335i

It did not have an oil cooler, the car was supplied by Infiniti.

Different car. All 6MTs have the cooler and this test was at Willow Springs. The other MotorTrend car (Step and supplied by Infiniti in AZ) they got to limp did not have the cooler. It seems the cooler may just postpone limp mode a lap or two if aggressive driving persists.

[2e9x's]

But note the narrator specified that oil temperature was normal. THAT car had a different issue causing limp home...Maybe a bad HPFP??? (I am only half kidding)

The thing is...what was the history of that car? Take the OP's for example...referring to cars that had issues due to the cooling system not being bled correctly.

Maybe the car was detonating due to heat and 91 or less octane (this IS CA after all). Maybe a bad tank of gas. Maybe a car owned by Infinity that was tampered with.

Has anybody (besides the video) had limp home in a 6MT?

[sg335]

There seems to be a good number of members of this forum who have been to the track without any problems with extended 20-30 minute track sessions at constant high RPM. Can any of you comment here about your experiences?

[2e9x's]

I just wanted to comment on this issue briefly...

We are in Italy right now in the middle of our ED adventure. Yesterday the nav routed us around a closed section of autobahn and across some mountain roads. I was pushing fairly hard (respecting the break-in for the most part), with 4 people and 3 weeks worth of luggage, in 100+ ambient temperatures, with A/C full blast. My oil temperatures stayed at a nice cool 250...Clearly after reading all the threads on this subject I was paying attention.

More later...

[DrDomer]

Just went to Autobahn Autoclub in Joliet, IL. They have 10 335i's. They're all autos. All came initially without the air/oil cooler installed. All 10 had overheating problems and limp mode problems regularly after 30 mins of hot lapping (balls to the wall). Now they have the air/oil coolers installed and they have overheating problems after 60 mins of hot lapping. My car didn't overheat after 40 mins of track time, but only 10 mins was at my limit of ability (8/10ths of car's ability probably ) I rode a couple laps with Tom Bagley (look him up... Indy 500 '78-'80... top finish was 9th) and he drove the car at 10/10ths in 86F heat and had the heater and defrost maxed to keep temps from shutting the car down. The course is the 1.4 mile north course and he was getting the car up to 115mph on the straights and just beating the heck out of it (probably 30 laps total). It probably would've gone into limp mode in a couple more laps, but it held up ok. What great fun that was....

[RMRC]

Originally Posted by DrDomer

Just went to Autobahn Autoclub in Joliet, IL. They have 10 335i's. They're all autos. All came initially without the air/oil cooler installed. All 10 had overheating problems and limp mode problems regularly after 30 mins of hot lapping (balls to the wall). Now they have the air/oil coolers installed and they have overheating problems after 60 mins of hot lapping. My car didn't overheat after 40 mins of track time, but only 10 mins was at my limit of ability (8/10ths of car's ability probably ) I rode a couple laps with Tom Bagley (look him up... Indy 500 '78-'80... top finish was 9th) and he drove the car at 10/10ths in 86F heat and had the heater and defrost maxed to keep temps from shutting the car down. The course is the 1.4 mile north course and he was getting the car up to 115mph on the straights and just beating the heck out of it (probably 30 laps total). It probably would've gone into limp mode in a couple more laps, but it held up ok. What great fun that was....

Over a week ago I sent Mark and Tom my graphs and asked if they could comment but I never received a response. I'm not surprised since I've been told by someone close to folks at Autobahn that they are "working" with BMW on a fix for this. I hope a fix comes soon because I can only get about 15mins of lapping before my car with cooler goes into limp home mode. I have not tried turning the heater on full blast though so perhps I'll try that.

[BMWdrmz]

Originally Posted by reb03

Over a week ago I sent Tom my graphs and asked if he could comment but I never received a response. I'm not surprised since I've been told by someone close to folks at Autobahn that they are "working" with BMW on a fix for this. I hope a fix comes soon because I can only get about 15mins of lapping before my car with cooler goes into limp home mode. I have not tried turning the heater on full blast though so perhps I'll try that.

This is such a complex problem. There could be a number of variables, including the weight of the oil you're running. If you think about it, the more friction your engine generates from all the moving parts the more heat it will generate. That's why motorsport oils tend to be higher weight to reduce internal engine friction and hold up to higher engine temps. That in and of itself will not keep an engine cool, but it plays a factor. Also heat is what causes an oil to break down and lose viscosity. Since I've been doing track days this year I've been using 10W-60 Castrol TWS motorsport oil (same oil recommended for my M3 when I had it). Knock on wood, I have not experienced extreme engine temps (that's including 30 mins of hot lapping). I have no doubts that the oil cooler could stand to be a bit larger, but there has to be other factors.
In any case I have a track day scheduled this Sunday. The ambient temp should be around 75F-78F. I'll let you know what I notice my oil temps are when I get back.
Does anyone know what I could use to hook something up to measure coolant temp. I would like to start gathering some real data that I can post for everyone.

[RMRC]

Originally Posted by BMWdrmz

Does anyone know what I could use to hook something up to measure coolant temp. I would like to start gathering some real data that I can post for everyone.

I gathered my data using a Davis Automotive CarChip. It's relatively inexpensive at $149 (Midway Automotive) and will provide us with all the info EXCEPT oil temp. It does not record oil temp but this is not a problem for me since my coolant temp sends my car into limp home mode before my oil temp causes limp home mode. If you get a CarChip please share your data with us. At 75-78 degrees I doubt you'll have a coolant overheat issue.