Next step? TD04-9G to 13G compressor wheel?

M&M · 07-20-2007, 01:44 PM

What's the thoughts on taking out the 9G compressor wheel, machining a 13G in there (I don't think the 15G will fit without changing the whole housing), but leaving the stock turbine wheel in there. Should make a moderate 10-15%power increase on the same boost but hold the boost a bit longer & shift the powerband a bit up. Should be very cheap to do as well.

If you want a bit more, maybe changing the housing to the slightly bigger Td04-H housing with the 13G or 15G wheel. That might necessitate a few more changes though (maybe turbine wheel, etc). The simple compressor wheel swap seems like a risk-free way to gain power with very little impact on spool. Is there something I'm missing here?

judec · 07-20-2007, 02:36 PM

I feel more power, I feel more lag... I feel a guinea pig started this thread for us. GO GO GO!!! (crossing fingers)

M&M · 07-20-2007, 02:43 PM

I don't think there will be much more lag as the turbine wheel is untouched.

judec · 07-20-2007, 02:48 PM

there's always some. the turbine wheel needs to rotate a bigger compressor - longer spoolup (dont argue it wont be noticable, it will), than it will generate more pressure, what means more torque needed on the turbine side, thus more exhaust gas be pushed... but U know, its a trade-off - U want more power, U have to sacrifice s/t. Anyway, it's the firs turboed car w/o noticable lag, so U just get it to "normal"

M&M · 07-20-2007, 02:54 PM

Yeah I said not "much" more. Like in 100-200rpm more. For the guys at altitude the formula for "altitude compensation" is to go one size bigger on the comp wheel, & clip the wings on the turbine wheel.

PresaMat · 07-20-2007, 04:15 PM

I say do it! And let us know how it goes!

Mat

M&M · 07-20-2007, 04:48 PM

OK so Google is your friend. It seems the Mitsubishi Stealth or something like that is a close call to the 335. Also a twin-turbo 6 cylinder, also 3.0 litres in capacity, also with TD04-9's stock.

So it seems the reasoning to go one size up is sound as they been doing as well, although the 15 seems more popular with them. But they do have more space & everything isn't as integrated as in the 335, so they can have a few more options.

Here's the 9B compressor map next to the 13-G's:

These guys are gaining 5-6mph trap going from 2x9-B's to 13'G's on the same boost. Once they tune they are gaining more. I reckon we could get a 40-50hp gain by just changing the compressor to 13G. So who's gonna' try it?

PresaMat · 07-20-2007, 05:17 PM

M&M I nominate you! Sound like you already have a good tech down there (looking at your DPs). Shouldnt be too hard. Make it work and sell the kit for the rest of us!

Mat

Vince@ V K Motorwerks · 07-20-2007, 05:18 PM

M&M- you started the thread why not you...shoot if we can gain 40-50 more hp, along with a PROcede, dp, coil-over and LSD, the 335i should be a bad-ass all around machine!

PresaMat · 07-20-2007, 05:21 PM

Dont forget the FMIC!

M&M · 07-20-2007, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PresaMat

Make it work and sell the kit for the rest of us!

Mat

There's no kit man. You get the car on a ramp. Pull the turbos out. Take it to a turbo shop. Buy 2x 13G compressor wheels. Get them to machine the 13G wheel in, & balance the shaft. They give the whole turbo back to you & you put in back in. Compressor wheel change is piece of cake. Changing the turbine wheel is a whole lot more work.

SfValley335i · 07-20-2007, 05:44 PM

I think this is a good read for everyone....

TD04 upgrade info/specs

judec · 07-20-2007, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M

OK so Google is your friend. It seems the Mitsubishi Stealth or something like that is a close call to the 335. Also a twin-turbo 6 cylinder, also 3.0 litres in capacity, also with TD04-9's stock.

So it seems the reasoning to go one size up is sound as they been doing as well, although the 15 seems more popular with them. But they do have more space & everything isn't as integrated as in the 335, so they can have a few more options....

your images dont seem to work. could U pls recheck them, I havent found them on stealth site, they are too stealth...

FinInk · 07-20-2007, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judec

your images dont seem to work. could U pls recheck them, I havent found them on stealth site, they are too stealth...

lmao toooooo stealltthhh

forsure though, I think you should try it out M&M unless you have a good reason not to?

Damn its a mouth watering prospect

derryck · 07-20-2007, 09:49 PM

I'm definitely interested I will check into it. I have a local tuner who excels at custom fabrication and turbos.

all8up · 07-21-2007, 09:48 AM

M&M,

I think you have a great idea but unless your labor out there is really cheap I wouldn't bother. I think even if you put in the larger 13g wheel, this turbo will be limited by the smallish exhaust housing.

M&M · 07-21-2007, 10:03 AM

If you look at the table someone posted, you will see the exhaust wheel for the 9-G & 13-G are almost the same size. It's only the 15G that's a bit of a step up. So I think the 13G compressor can run quite happily with the 9-G turbine. If you plot the boost curve at sea-level it seems the turbine wheel is not really as much of a restiction as the compressor.

elucas730 · 07-21-2007, 10:33 AM

Don't we have TD03s, not TD04s?
You can pick up TD04-13Gs (off of stock WRXs) for under $100 on NASIOC. At that price, it might be interesting to get one just to see what kind of mating issues there would be and if there are any 'cheap' solutions. Of course, you'd have to be tuned for it if you wanted to run a bigger turbo.

all8up · 07-21-2007, 11:23 AM

Please don't take this as me bashing your idea, but I'm pretty certain that map that is illustrated is a td04 13G w/ a 6cm2 exhaust housing. So unless our hot side is 6cm2, then you will not see the gains that are illustrated.

M&M · 07-21-2007, 11:56 AM

Well the gains are to be had by having a bigger compressor, provided the hot side doesn't become a restriction.

Lee Rambler · 07-21-2007, 05:36 PM

is it known what turbos are being used factory? I know they are MHI's, but wasn't sure what housing and compressor wheels? I've heard rumor of TD04 and TD03, haven't really looked too hard. If they are TD04, it would be pretty cost effective to get TD04-13G's from one of the DSM vendors (I've had several DSM's in the past, talk about cheap performance upgrades...). It would be awesome if there was room to run TD05-14B's (stock eclipse/talon turbo) as you can pick them up VERY cheap from guys who put 16G's on. Used to be able to find 14B's on DSM trader for like $100. But even if it were TD04-13G's, they can be bought pretty reasonably (at least in comparison to what I saw in the RDsport catalog!).

dxb335d · 07-21-2007, 05:42 PM

man i love all this tuning of the 335i!!!

when wil we see 500-550 at the crank?

07-20-2007, 01:44 PM	#1
M&M Captain 114 Rep 750 Posts Drives: Boosted Beemers! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Johannesburg, South Africa iTrader: (0)	Next step? TD04-9G to 13G compressor wheel? What's the thoughts on taking out the 9G compressor wheel, machining a 13G in there (I don't think the 15G will fit without changing the whole housing), but leaving the stock turbine wheel in there. Should make a moderate 10-15%power increase on the same boost but hold the boost a bit longer & shift the powerband a bit up. Should be very cheap to do as well. If you want a bit more, maybe changing the housing to the slightly bigger Td04-H housing with the 13G or 15G wheel. That might necessitate a few more changes though (maybe turbine wheel, etc). The simple compressor wheel swap seems like a risk-free way to gain power with very little impact on spool. Is there something I'm missing here?
	Appreciate 0 Tweet Quote

07-20-2007, 02:36 PM	#2
judec born to be turbocharged 24 Rep 1,347 Posts Drives: Not a bimmer yet Join Date: May 2007 Location: Slovakia iTrader: (0)	I feel more power, I feel more lag... I feel a guinea pig started this thread for us. GO GO GO!!! (crossing fingers)
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-20-2007, 02:43 PM	#3
M&M Captain 114 Rep 750 Posts Drives: Boosted Beemers! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Johannesburg, South Africa iTrader: (0)	I don't think there will be much more lag as the turbine wheel is untouched.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-20-2007, 02:48 PM	#4
judec born to be turbocharged 24 Rep 1,347 Posts Drives: Not a bimmer yet Join Date: May 2007 Location: Slovakia iTrader: (0)	there's always some. the turbine wheel needs to rotate a bigger compressor - longer spoolup (dont argue it wont be noticable, it will), than it will generate more pressure, what means more torque needed on the turbine side, thus more exhaust gas be pushed... but U know, its a trade-off - U want more power, U have to sacrifice s/t. Anyway, it's the firs turboed car w/o noticable lag, so U just get it to "normal"
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-20-2007, 02:54 PM	#5
M&M Captain 114 Rep 750 Posts Drives: Boosted Beemers! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Johannesburg, South Africa iTrader: (0)	Yeah I said not "much" more. Like in 100-200rpm more. For the guys at altitude the formula for "altitude compensation" is to go one size bigger on the comp wheel, & clip the wings on the turbine wheel.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-20-2007, 04:15 PM	#6
PresaMat Major 35 Rep 1,169 Posts Drives: 67 GT500,69 Boss 429, 335i Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Houston,TX iTrader: (0) Garage List 1967 Shelby Mustang ... [0.00]	I say do it! And let us know how it goes! Mat __________________ -Mat Tuned E92 335, Riss Racing downpipes! And hopefully over 400RWHP!!
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-20-2007, 04:48 PM	#7
M&M Captain 114 Rep 750 Posts Drives: Boosted Beemers! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Johannesburg, South Africa iTrader: (0)	OK so Google is your friend. It seems the Mitsubishi Stealth or something like that is a close call to the 335. Also a twin-turbo 6 cylinder, also 3.0 litres in capacity, also with TD04-9's stock. So it seems the reasoning to go one size up is sound as they been doing as well, although the 15 seems more popular with them. But they do have more space & everything isn't as integrated as in the 335, so they can have a few more options. Here's the 9B compressor map next to the 13-G's: These guys are gaining 5-6mph trap going from 2x9-B's to 13'G's on the same boost. Once they tune they are gaining more. I reckon we could get a 40-50hp gain by just changing the compressor to 13G. So who's gonna' try it?
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-20-2007, 05:17 PM	#8
PresaMat Major 35 Rep 1,169 Posts Drives: 67 GT500,69 Boss 429, 335i Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Houston,TX iTrader: (0) Garage List 1967 Shelby Mustang ... [0.00]	M&M I nominate you! Sound like you already have a good tech down there (looking at your DPs). Shouldnt be too hard. Make it work and sell the kit for the rest of us! Mat __________________ -Mat Tuned E92 335, Riss Racing downpipes! And hopefully over 400RWHP!!
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-20-2007, 05:18 PM	#9
Vince@ V K Motorwerks Lieutenant Colonel 150 Rep 1,738 Posts Drives: 01 Black 911 Turbo, 09 X5 Join Date: May 2007 Location: Bloomingdale, IL iTrader: (0)	M&M- you started the thread why not you...shoot if we can gain 40-50 more hp, along with a PROcede, dp, coil-over and LSD, the 335i should be a bad-ass all around machine!
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-20-2007, 05:21 PM	#10
PresaMat Major 35 Rep 1,169 Posts Drives: 67 GT500,69 Boss 429, 335i Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Houston,TX iTrader: (0) Garage List 1967 Shelby Mustang ... [0.00]	Dont forget the FMIC! __________________ -Mat Tuned E92 335, Riss Racing downpipes! And hopefully over 400RWHP!!
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-20-2007, 05:44 PM	#12
SfValley335i Colonel 167 Rep 2,409 Posts Drives: Current:135i Sold:335i sedan Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: City of Angels iTrader: (8)	I think this is a good read for everyone.... TD04 upgrade info/specs
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-20-2007, 09:49 PM	#15
derryck Captain 57 Rep 879 Posts Drives: 2009 335 Coupe Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Florida iTrader: (4)	I'm definitely interested I will check into it. I have a local tuner who excels at custom fabrication and turbos.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-21-2007, 09:48 AM	#16
all8up Ironchef 92 Rep 495 Posts Drives: 22 M4 C Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Ashburn VA iTrader: (1) Garage List 2022 M4 C [0.00]	M&M, I think you have a great idea but unless your labor out there is really cheap I wouldn't bother. I think even if you put in the larger 13g wheel, this turbo will be limited by the smallish exhaust housing. __________________ 20 X3MC AW 15 F80 BSM M3, BM3 09 C63 AMG, Eurocharged Flash, Klassen Monoblocks - sold 07 E90 335, UR Exh, Helix IC, Bav Sport Coils, iForged Swift- sold E46 M3 - gone and always missed
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-21-2007, 10:03 AM	#17
M&M Captain 114 Rep 750 Posts Drives: Boosted Beemers! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Johannesburg, South Africa iTrader: (0)	If you look at the table someone posted, you will see the exhaust wheel for the 9-G & 13-G are almost the same size. It's only the 15G that's a bit of a step up. So I think the 13G compressor can run quite happily with the 9-G turbine. If you plot the boost curve at sea-level it seems the turbine wheel is not really as much of a restiction as the compressor.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-21-2007, 10:33 AM	#18
elucas730 I'm just here for the turbo 5 Rep 327 Posts Drives: 2004 STi, 2007 335i Join Date: May 2007 Location: Apalachin, NY iTrader: (0)	Don't we have TD03s, not TD04s? You can pick up TD04-13Gs (off of stock WRXs) for under $100 on NASIOC. At that price, it might be interesting to get one just to see what kind of mating issues there would be and if there are any 'cheap' solutions. Of course, you'd have to be tuned for it if you wanted to run a bigger turbo. __________________ Current Rides: 2007 BMW 335i Sedan 6MT Montego Blue, 2004 Subaru Impreza WRX STi (for sale), 2004 Mazda RX-8 6MT Fondly Remember: 1988 Porsche 924S, 1992 Mitsu 3000GT SL, 2001 BMW Z3 2.5i
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-21-2007, 11:23 AM	#19
all8up Ironchef 92 Rep 495 Posts Drives: 22 M4 C Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Ashburn VA iTrader: (1) Garage List 2022 M4 C [0.00]	Please don't take this as me bashing your idea, but I'm pretty certain that map that is illustrated is a td04 13G w/ a 6cm2 exhaust housing. So unless our hot side is 6cm2, then you will not see the gains that are illustrated. __________________ 20 X3MC AW 15 F80 BSM M3, BM3 09 C63 AMG, Eurocharged Flash, Klassen Monoblocks - sold 07 E90 335, UR Exh, Helix IC, Bav Sport Coils, iForged Swift- sold E46 M3 - gone and always missed
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-21-2007, 11:56 AM	#20
M&M Captain 114 Rep 750 Posts Drives: Boosted Beemers! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Johannesburg, South Africa iTrader: (0)	Well the gains are to be had by having a bigger compressor, provided the hot side doesn't become a restriction.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-21-2007, 05:36 PM	#21
Lee Rambler Captain 17 Rep 605 Posts Drives: 07 e92 335 6mt, 04 e53 x5 4.4 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: PA iTrader: (0)	is it known what turbos are being used factory? I know they are MHI's, but wasn't sure what housing and compressor wheels? I've heard rumor of TD04 and TD03, haven't really looked too hard. If they are TD04, it would be pretty cost effective to get TD04-13G's from one of the DSM vendors (I've had several DSM's in the past, talk about cheap performance upgrades...). It would be awesome if there was room to run TD05-14B's (stock eclipse/talon turbo) as you can pick them up VERY cheap from guys who put 16G's on. Used to be able to find 14B's on DSM trader for like $100. But even if it were TD04-13G's, they can be bought pretty reasonably (at least in comparison to what I saw in the RDsport catalog!).
	Appreciate 0 Quote

07-21-2007, 05:42 PM	#22
dxb335d The Tarmac Terrorist 1011 Rep 29,344 Posts Drives: 997.2 GT3 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: ''Fandango Towers'' iTrader: (3) Garage List 2010 Porsche 997.2 GT3 [9.50] 2003 BMW E46 M3 [6.00] 2007 BMW E92 335D [5.50]	man i love all this tuning of the 335i!!! when wil we see 500-550 at the crank? __________________ 997.2 GT3
	Appreciate 0 Quote