[radgator1]

Saw the timeslip from this thread at Bimmerfest. Damn nice numbers and this was on street tires Sorry if this is a repost. I didn't see it here

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=225063

[jbake]

wow, the more and more I keep hearing about the JB, it seems more legit.

[DrDomer]

Wow... Lots of history lost on that forum. Really makes me wonder who knows what he's talking about. Meaning... Terry with JB shows up on another forum proclaiming the greatness of said JB and the dangers of the Procede. On this forum of course it is quite the opposite. I'm obviously a Procede guy myself, but certainly don't know diddly squat compared to most of you guys on here. Sometimes I wonder what is the "truth" anymore. [Sitting.. Confused.. Lost.. ]

[Alias]

Im completely lost as well. I actually have money to spend now on a piggyback, but im on the fence now on what to get.

[radgator1]

Originally Posted by DrDomer

Wow... Lots of history lost on that forum. Really makes me wonder who knows what he's talking about. Meaning... Terry with JB shows up on another forum proclaiming the greatness of said JB and the dangers of the Procede. On this forum of course it is quite the opposite. I'm obviously a Procede guy myself, but certainly don't know diddly squat compared to most of you guys on here. Sometimes I wonder what is the "truth" anymore. [Sitting.. Confused.. Lost.. ]

I dont think there is anything to suggest this timeslip isn't real In fact TB ran a little faster 1/8 mile ET and higher 1/8 mile trap in his car at Irwindale but that was on 91 Octane but with better tires and exhaust mod. I haven't read everything over at bimmerfest on the subject but didn't really see anything posted about Procede being dangerous, just that it runs higher boost.

[A418t81]

I should be getting to the track sometime soon with my JB S2 beta. I trapped 106 with the stage 1 in very hot weather. The car feels quite significantly stronger with the S2beta. I'm betting on 108+ and with the way it feels now compared to before, and I wouldn't be surprised to see 109 out of it with the JB as my only mod

[DrDomer]

I know the whole history. Been watching/reading daily since Shiv first arrived here. I have a Procede running v1.47 and am waiting for V2. I was around as Terry335 went from actively picking Shiv's brain, to bouncing ideas of forum members, to messing with some resistors based on a comment Shiv made, to the ******, JB, whatever. I guess I just don't know what really is reliable or safe. I've had no problems with the Procede what so ever, but some have had minor issues. The JB certainly doesn't seem safe (again I know diddly), but people on bimmerforums seem excited.

Apparently the KNOWcede (******) is still a naughty word.

[jcarlucci1]

Have you ever had anything else on your car..xede, procede, etc? Just wondering if you could give a comparison to the jbs2..

Originally Posted by A418t81

I should be getting to the track sometime soon with my JB S2 beta. I trapped 106 with the stage 1 in very hot weather. The car feels quite significantly stronger with the S2beta. I'm betting on 108+ and with the way it feels now compared to before, and I wouldn't be surprised to see 109 out of it with the JB as my only mod

[A418t81]

Originally Posted by jcarlucci1

Have you ever had anything else on your car..xede, procede, etc? Just wondering if you could give a comparison to the jbs2..

I haven't. However if you click on the link to bimmerfest, the guy who just ran 12s with the JB gives his impressions of the JB compared to his procede.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by DrDomer

I know the whole history. Been watching/reading daily since Shiv first arrived here. I have a Procede running v1.47 and am waiting for V2. I was around as Terry335 went from actively picking Shiv's brain, to bouncing ideas of forum members, to messing with some resistors based on a comment Shiv made, to the ******, JB, whatever. I guess I just don't know what really is reliable or safe. I've had no problems with the Procede what so ever, but some have had minor issues. The JB certainly doesn't seem safe (again I know diddly), but people on bimmerforums seem excited.

Apparently the KNOWcede (******) is still a naughty word.

More boost with no timing control = not safe

-shiv

[A418t81]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

More boost with no timing control = not safe

-shiv

Guess that turbo tuner, which is considered by many around here to be as safe as a procede, isn't so safe after all?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by A418t81

Guess that turbo tuner, which is considered by many around here to be as safe as a procede, isn't so safe after all

I'd agree with that. As would any actual engine tuner in the industry. It's really funny. Lots of people are looking for the magic bullet. The bargain of the century. The giant killer. But one of the fundamental requirements of being able to access a products merits is a technical understanding what it does and doesn't do. And what functionality is required given the existing constraints and target goals. In the case of engine management, it's really easy to understand the basics: Fuel control, boost control and ignition timing control. In mature markets, what usually separates different tuning options are the differences in how each "ingredient" is mapped. Basically, the recipe. In the case of the 335i tuning market, half of the tuning options are actually missing one-third of the necessary ingredients. The taste can be made temporarily palatable by through spreading misinformation (air intake temp based timing retard nonsense, factory closed loop fuel control adjusting for fuel delivery bs, how 'unsafe' other options are, for examples). It's just the way the market works. Some will get it immediately. Some won't. But in the end, the more options out there will make everyone more knowledgable on the subject. But a few eggs will likely be cracked along the way.

Shiv

[A418t81]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I'd agree with that. As would any actual engine tuner in the industry.

Shiv

In theory I would agree with you every time. But in the case of the S2, why pull timing from a system that isn't pulling timing due to KR in the first place?

[musc]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

More boost with no timing control = not safe

-shiv

+1

Originally Posted by A418t81

In theory I would agree with you every time. But in the case of the S2, why pull timing from a system that isn't pulling timing due to KR in the first place?

+1

You'll obviously need control of timing of fuel given the boost levels of something like the PROcede, but it seems like the richer AFR for the JB S2 is sufficient given the modest boost increase. Would you agree, Shiv?

[DrDomer]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

More boost with no timing control = not safe

-shiv

Some rebuttle's I've heard for this were that it is definitely true over a certain boost PSI. Below a certain boost level the ECU can compensate enough to keep things safe. Is that really true?

It seems like we've (you = Shiv) had to make some compromises early on with the Xede and even current versions of Procede compared to the upcoming V2 as far as safety. Not saying it isn't safe, just that you had to tiptoe around certain "issues" until you were able to control all the parameters to your satisfaction. To a complete novice (moron) like myself, seems the safest of all tunes might be a slightly detuned V2. I would never expect Shiv to really chime in, as is implies we're all pushing the boundries of safety. Time always makes me smarter too.

Totally off subject, but can anyone point us less informed forum members to good resources on the basics of how engines work? More specifically, how modern turbocharged engines work? I know lots of you guys work in th industry, but some of us work in other fields and still like to understand things at their most basic level.

[RedGT3]

Originally Posted by Alias

Im completely lost as well. I actually have money to spend now on a piggyback, but im on the fence now on what to get.

If you have the $$$$$$ go with Procede. If you don't Jb v2 is right for you.

[A418t81]

Originally Posted by DrDomer

Some rebuttle's I've heard for this were that it is definitely true over a certain boost PSI. Below a certain boost level the ECU can compensate enough to keep things safe. Is that really true?

It seems like we've (you = Shiv) had to make some compromises early on with the Xede and even current versions of Procede compared to the upcoming V2 as far as safety. Not saying it isn't safe, just that you had to tiptoe around certain "issues" until you were able to control all the parameters to your satisfaction. To a complete novice (moron) like myself, seems the safest of all tunes might be a slightly detuned V2. I would never expect Shiv to really chime in, as is implies we're all pushing the boundries of safety. Time always makes me smarter too.

Totally off subject, but can anyone point us less informed forum members to good resources on the basics of how engines work? More specifically, how modern turbocharged engines work? I know lots of you guys work in th industry, but some of us work in other fields and still like to understand things at their most basic level.

Up to 11.5 psi or so, the amount the S2 and TT run, the ECU can deal with to an extent at the stock AFR by pulling some timing, or one can richen the mixture a bit like the S2 does and keep everything happy. Anything over that and fueling really isn't a great solution to dealing with the increased timing, so yes, timing control would be needed. Running 14 psi down low is obviously the reason the procede makes the kind of tq that they do and that can only be accomplished with timing control.

[radgator1]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I'd agree with that. As would any actual engine tuner in the industry. It's really funny. Lots of people are looking for the magic bullet. The bargain of the century. The giant killer. But one of the fundamental requirements of being able to access a products merits is a technical understanding what it does and doesn't do. And what functionality is required given the existing constraints and target goals. In the case of engine management, it's really easy to understand the basics: Fuel control, boost control and ignition timing control. In mature markets, what usually separates different tuning options are the differences in how each "ingredient" is mapped. Basically, the recipe. In the case of the 335i tuning market, half of the tuning options are actually missing one-third of the necessary ingredients. The taste can be made temporarily palatable by through spreading misinformation (air intake temp based timing retard nonsense, factory closed loop fuel control adjusting for fuel delivery bs, how 'unsafe' other options are, for examples). It's just the way the market works. Some will get it immediately. Some won't. But in the end, the more options out there will make everyone more knowledgable on the subject. But a few eggs will likely be cracked along the way.
Shiv

It looks to me like all the eggs are in the basket and fully uncracked currently.

Admittedly some options aren't as elegent as others, but then again simplicity isn't always a bad thing. It seems like we haven't heard of any limp modes in the SSTT and JB equipped cars

[lawdude]

I know nothing about Terry's device - except what I read on the internet. How good or bad it is is for someone else to determine.

However, Terry's demeanor is completely different on the other board. I went over and gave him a hard time. He handled it quite well. I also noticed that he seems to be more accessible than most other tuners, both publicly and privately. He answers all questions/observations without snapping at or talking down to the poster. If he could do that on this board, he could become a valuable contributor. Of course if they let him back, we'd all be waiting to see how long it takes for him to piss in Shiv's porridge.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by DrDomer

Some rebuttle's I've heard for this were that it is definitely true over a certain boost PSI. Below a certain boost level the ECU can compensate enough to keep things safe. Is that really true?

Safe is a relative term. I don't think any of the lesser option will destroy an engine in 95% of the applications. But raising boost without timing control does have a detrimental effect on the adaptability of the factory ECU. The stock ECU has the ability to trim ignition timing within a certain range. If you are relying on the negative side of the range to provide you with timing retard for you extra boost, you've essentially limited the adaptive safety margin that would otherwise protect your engine from a bad tank of gas, extra hot conditions, sustain load, etc,.

To put this in numbers, let's say that the factory ECU has the ability to retard up to 10 degrees of timing through adaptation. In a stock car, this ability to trim back timing is used during harsh conditions. Such as someone filling up the tank with 87oct. Or racing the car on the track. Or running at sustained boost in hot conditions. BMW believed this 10 degree retard window was sufficient to pro-actively protect the engine from anything one could throw at it. And they would know. But under normal conditions, the car operates in the 1-2 degrees of negative retard range.

Now lets imagine that we just raised the boost to 10psi. No other changes. This induces knock and the factory adaptation function trims back another 3-4 degrees of timing under boost. Yes, the car is now running knock-free for the most part. Except for the times the ECU tries to add in timing since it is programmed to try to get back into the 1-2 degrees of retard range that it believes to be normal, instead of the 4-6 degrees of retard that it constantly operates with.

Now let's raise the boost to 11-12psi and bias the wideband o2 sensors to add in fuel under boost. The bump in boost requires another 1-2 degrees of retard. But the fuel enrichment allows for another 1 degree of knock suppression. So now the ECU is running with a on-boost ignition trim of 5-7 degrees of retard. Again, the ECU can keep things knock free. But the problem remains: You've used all nearly all of your 10 degree ignition retard safety margin. This is okay 95% of the time. But it's the last 5% of the time that things get ugly.

This is why having aux. timing control is critical. It allows you to run the necessary amount of timing retard under boost. But it doesn't take it from the factory ECU's adaptive functions. That still stays and does its important job as it sees fit.

Rule of thumb when tuning a car: Don't mess with safety margins. They are there for a reason.

-shiv

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by radgator1

It looks to me like all the eggs are in the basket and fully uncracked currently.

Admittedly some options aren't as elegent as others, but then again simplicity isn't always a bad thing. It seems like we haven't heard of any limp modes in the SSTT and JB equipped cars

Maybe you haven't. The SSTT limped on me while i was testing it on the dyno a couple of months ago (boost target not reached). In fact, I could only do 2 runs on it. The last 3 tripped low boost mode. A map clamp is a map clamp is a map clamp. Nothing special there. Others have confirmed the same before.

Shiv

[lawdude]

This is why we need Terry back. Just the mention of Terry or his device gets Shiv back in full force. Imagine how much we'd hear from him if Terry posted full time.