[bthienthai]

Hi guys,
I asked some dealers for pricing of 2008 328i, and one guy told me he's willing to do $400 over invoice. Is that really $400 over the whole sale price of $28,910 posted in the new pricing thread?

[P1]

If he really meant $400 over invoice, then yes. Just make sure he didn't mean $400 under MSRP...

[bthienthai]

I just got an email from him saying that $400 over cost is $400 over the MSRP, which is $32,983 + $400...is he smoking weed or am I?

[Sideshow]

He's hoping you are......

[P1]

He's smoking some of the country's finest and hoping to run off with your money.

Tell him to f*ck off.

[bthienthai]

Actually, he said $400 over his cost. But still, when a dealer says over his cost, it usually means over invoice, right? That's the impression I got when I read the discussion in this forum. Let me know if I'm wrong. Thanks, guys.

[pharding]

Originally Posted by bthienthai

Actually, he said $400 over his cost. But still, when a dealer says over his cost, it usually means over invoice, right? That's the impression I got when I read the discussion in this forum. Let me know if I'm wrong. Thanks, guys.

It depends on how you define cost. Hold him to your understanding of $400 over US Wholesale. Watch out for hidden fees, like the Training Fee that very few people pay.

Also if you lease instead on the Buy Rate. The Acquisition Fee should be $625. They will try to $825, but smart people don't pay it on a lease.

On any purchase always check the dealers math. They routinely make math errors, always in their favor.

[bthienthai]

He said he can't use whole sale price as his cost unless I'm buying wholesale :-)

[theroyalwe]

dealer cost typically includes the costs a dealer incurs to make the car legal and ready for sale. Here it would include inspection of the car, mats, wheel locks, dealer prep charges (usually a few hundred if a full detail was done)

[Shalabh]

Originally Posted by bthienthai

Actually, he said $400 over his cost. But still, when a dealer says over his cost, it usually means over invoice, right? That's the impression I got when I read the discussion in this forum. Let me know if I'm wrong. Thanks, guys.

Hey watchout for fees like MACO. They tell you xyz over invoice and when you see the invoice you see other fees over wholesale price. My dealer told me 500 over invoice but invoice had extra 500 for MACO. Nevertheless, 1000 over real invoice aint bad.

Arriving - 09/01 335i, AW, PP, CA, NAV, AUTO

[f82phan]

Originally Posted by bthienthai

I just got an email from him saying that $400 over cost is $400 over the MSRP, which is $32,983 + $400...is he smoking weed or am I?

Their cost is not MSRP, nor is it invoice; it's most likely slightly higher than invoice....

ask for the "out-the-door" price and the breakdown of it.

[pharding]

On a deal for my partners 335 this past July the deal was negotiated to $700 over US Confidential Wholesale with the lease at the buy rate. No hidden fees.

[TheSurgeon]

Originally Posted by pharding

On a deal for my partners 335 this past July the deal was negotiated to $700 over US Confidential Wholesale with the lease at the buy rate. No hidden fees.

Would you happen to know which dealer he went to? Is it a Chicago dealer?

I'm currently negotiating with several Chicago dealers. The best I've gotten is $1300 over invoice for an 08 328xi coupe, which supposedly should have more negotiation room than the 335i coupe.

[pharding]

Mitch Hookam at Elmhurst BMW in west suburban Chicago. You may wish to mention my name, Paul Harding. Coupes and convertibles are both in high demand so they are able to charge more.

You may wish to consider doing Euro Delivery. You can save approximately 10% off US MSRP. I did Euro Delivery for myself 3 times. It became a great 1 to 3 week vacation. I did Euro Delivery on an 05 330 for my son. I left O'Hare at 5 pm on Saturday and I was back in Chicago at 5 pm on Monday.

[John 070]

Originally Posted by bthienthai

Actually, he said $400 over his cost. But still, when a dealer says over his cost, it usually means over invoice, right? That's the impression I got when I read the discussion in this forum. Let me know if I'm wrong. Thanks, guys.

My experience was edmunds.com does not match the BMW dealerships' invoice, they have additional fees that they pay. So I said f*** it, I got tired of going around with what is invoice, what is not invoice, the value of pi, how many in a baker's dozen, etc. At the time I felt $1700 off list was good, so I said just give me $1700 off list, can you do it or not. The dealer made one last effort to tell me $xxxx over invoice is not $1700 off list, $1700 off list is impossible on a coupe. I said fine I'll buy it at BMW xxxxxxxxx then. He said wait, let me put you on hold for a sec, came back and said you've got a deal.

I still don't get it, what's the point in talking about invoice when the dealership can move his invoice by showing you add'l fees that he pays BMWNA? What he cannot move is list price.

[pharding]

With car enthusiasts the most common way to discuss car purchase prices is dollars over invoice. It is the most accurate and effective way to analyze the deal. It is also the best way to negotiate the deal because it is very clear.

Go here for the Confidential Wholesale Price or Invoice that Bimmerfest posts.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78476 If doing Euro Delivery use the Euro Delivery numbers which are less.

Fees in fact do not go to BMW NA. Many people think that and do not analyze or challenge them. MACO may be legitimate and hard to get rid of, but the amount dealers charge for them varies. The BMW Training Fee does not go to BMW NA. It just goes to the dealer as extra profit. If you lease the Acquisition Fee that most pay is $625. This goes to BMW FS. Some dealers put down $825 which is $200 extra profit for the dealer. Smart people lease their cars at the BMW Buy Rate and get the Owner Loyalty Rate Reduction. Many others have the BMW Buy Rate increased by the dealer and the dealership keeps the Owner Loyalty Program incentive for themselves.

If someone in the 'hood steals thousands from a bank they go to jail for 5 years. If a BMW dealer steals thousands from a BMW Enthusiast with phony and inflated fees, math errors on car financing or a lease, or packs extra profit into a lease then that is "good business". BMW buyers that do not do their homework and check the math routinely get fleeced by BMW dealers.

[ParaDiddle]

I sold cars when I was 18 and it's a crooked business. The dealer will try to screw the customer (when he can) and will always screw his sales staff when he can. Needless to say, I quit the car business quickly, but what I learned will prevent me from being raped by them.

What a dealer means when he says "his cost" is the following added up:

1. Invoice Price: The up front price that BMW sells the car to the dealer for
2. Dealer Pack: Typically $500-$1000 that goes immediately to the OWNER of the dealership. Sales people are paid %25 to %33 percent of the front end profit of a deal BUT that profit does NOT start until the invoice price PLUS the dealer pack is met. So, if you pay $1000 over invoice on a car and the dealer pack is $500, the front end profit is $500 and your sales person will make his comission on the $500 and NOT the $1000.
3. Cost of keeping a car on the lot: Finance charges for inventory, advertising, car washing, lot overhead etc... This is typically figured on a per car basis or cost basis.
4. BS document fees etc...

The dealer will whine and moan that his cost is way above invoice price but don't buy into that crap. Most manufacturers have kickbacks and pay the dealer a few percentage points at the end of a year too based on how many units were sold.

ALWAYS negotiate above Invoice price and don't listen to a dealer bitch and moan about his actual cost. You will have to pay the destination charge, which is the shipping on the car and perhaps the advertising fee that BMW makes the dealer pay per car, but even that stuff is slightly negotiable depending on how much over invoice you are offering.

Also remember, the dealership will treat its best customers to more perks. Need a loaner or want a free software upgrade? Be fair and couteous to your sales staff and the sales manager. On a 40k car, it's not unfair to let the dealer make a 4-5% profit, so expect to pay $1500 over invoice or slightly more. It's a fair deal for you and the dealership.

Also remember, this is sales. Regardless of what you say you are willing to spend, they will always ask you for more money, so start your negotiations lower if you want to play the game, or negotiate over email or the phone. It makes it much easier to walk from the deal. Once you say that you will walk or get the car elsewhere, you'll make a deal.

Originally Posted by bthienthai

Actually, he said $400 over his cost. But still, when a dealer says over his cost, it usually means over invoice, right? That's the impression I got when I read the discussion in this forum. Let me know if I'm wrong. Thanks, guys.