[Mr. 5]

First of all, I did a comparison of tuners:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78916

Now, I put on the Ultimate Racing High Flow Cat Downpipes a week ago, and they felt pretty good, so I wanted to see how much the increase was over Procede.

I went today, and I was very surprised because I lost power! That's right. Not only did I not gain any power, but I lost some.
It's obvious that there needs to be a program that goes along with these pipes.
I guess this is one of the reasons why companies that are making downpipes always show stock vs stock with downpipes.

I saw this post, but I don't understand how this person increased power.
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81297
Also, the graph says "power tyre" so I'm assuming that this was power at the wheels. This means that the procede only measured 293.2 at the wheels? The numbers seem kind of low for a procede, but I know that you can't compare a dyno to another dyno. I'm only bringing this up because I just don't understand how I lost power.


Anyway, if there's one positive thing to be said about the pipes, it's less lag. The turbo spools up easier and quicker creating less lag. This is why I don't understand the power loss. But, the numbers don't lie!

The first graph is the 3 runs that I did today.
The second graph shows the AtoFs.
The third shows the boost.
The fourth shows the best run of my procede compaired to the downpipes.

Even if I compare the other Procede runs (the lower of the 3) to the best run of the downpipes, there is still no gain.
This is the fifth graph.

Shiv, hopefully you are working on a program specificaly for the downpipes. I hope you read my post. Or, hopefully the V2 will help with these issues.

[Thomasz126]

Hey sorry to hear that man, I'm sure some tuning would definitely solve that issue and give you more power. Also, keep in mind that different conditions will give you different results everytime. Best way to find out what the gains are is to dyno the car with and without the DP's as close to each other as possible.

[533ogetnom]

the first bit of afrs is a little sketchy, but after that it looks fine O_o, should be making some power :/

[Crazy Bimmer]

Either way, you still making the torque that makes me giddy.

[Driver72]

So I'm a bit confused.
What was your best run with just the PROcede?
Which was your best run with the PROcede and DP's?

Was this done on the same dyno on the same day?

[fusionchicken]

Originally Posted by 533ogetnom

the first bit of afrs is a little sketchy, but after that it looks fine O_o, should be making some power :/

that's how the PROcede afr looks like....the spike in AFR is where the peak torque is achieved. v2 should fix that.

now for the OP, the reason you "lost" power could be:

1) i'm sure it's easily 100+ degree in the dyno room...and that definitely kills the power reading good.

2) having a downpipe increases the airflow, which could lean out the AFR even more than before, which could cause knocks thus cause the engine to pull timing, thus decrease power.

3) when/where did you have you before-downpipe dyno done? unless your before downpipe/after downpipe dyno were done on the same dyno on the same day, back to back, there's no real way of determining the gain.

[jon@themshop]

Originally Posted by Driver72

So I'm a bit confused.
What was your best run with just the PROcede?
Which was your best run with the PROcede and DP's?

Was this done on the same dyno on the same day?

His best run with the PROcede alone was 333rwhp and 371ft.lbs torque

It looks like his best run with the PROcede and high flow cat downpipe was 326rwhp and 363ft.lbs torque or 320rhwp and 367ft.lbs torque.

Same dyno but different days.

[533ogetnom]

Originally Posted by fusionchicken

2) having a downpipe increases the airflow, which could lean out the AFR even more than before, which could cause knocks thus cause the engine to pull timing, thus decrease power.

thats what i was thinking (that it has to be timings) because everything else looks normal besides the afr spike (which i know is "normal" but thats higher than "normal")

[533ogetnom]

Originally Posted by jon@themshop

His best run with the PROcede alone was 333rwhp and 371ft.lbs torque

It looks like his best run with the PROcede and high flow cat downpipe was 326rwhp and 363ft.lbs torque or 320rhwp and 367ft.lbs torque.

Same dyno but different days.

there catless, not that that has anything to do w/ your post, just saying

[jon@themshop]

Originally Posted by fusionchicken

that's how the PROcede afr looks like....the spike in AFR is where the peak torque is achieved. v2 should fix that.

now for the OP, the reason you "lost" power could be:

1) i'm sure it's easily 100+ degree in the dyno room...and that definitely kills the power reading good.

2) having a downpipe increases the airflow, which could lean out the AFR even more than before, which could cause knocks thus cause the engine to pull timing, thus decrease power.

3) when/where did you have you before-downpipe dyno done? unless your before downpipe/after downpipe dyno were done on the same dyno on the same day, back to back, there's no real way of determining the gain.

Weather might affect it. Today was very hot. Even if fans were used it's still blowing hot air into the intercooler.

The AFRs look fine. There's no indication of knocks on the dyno chart. A very good spike pointing south indicates and knock and timing being pulled.

This was done at the same dyno but on different days. Perhaps next time Mr. 5 can dyno his BMW with the PROcede removed and just the downpipes then install the PROcede again and see what he gets. But at this point he's already spent a lot of time and money for these runs and he's getting nothing in return... I think.

[jon@themshop]

Originally Posted by 533ogetnom

there catless, not that that has anything to do w/ your post, just saying

Mr.5 is running UR high flow cat downpipes with no secondary cats.

He is NOT running a catless downpipe.

[533ogetnom]

ah yea your right, thought he was running catless

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by fusionchicken

that's how the PROcede afr looks like....the spike in AFR is where the peak torque is achieved. v2 should fix that.

The spike is a measurement error. Partly caused by fresh air reversion into the tailpipe (when exhaust flow is low) and partly caused by response delay. This is just the way it is with tailpipe mounted wideband o2 sensors. Especially if you don't bolt the o2 sensor into a tube and stick it in at least 8" into the tailpipe. If you want to avoid this and get a more accurate reading, you will have to screw the dyno wideband into the downpipe.

shiv

[jon@themshop]

Originally Posted by 533ogetnom

ah yea your right, thought he was running catless

It is confusing because on his first post he doesn't mention that he's running the UR High Flow cat... just UR Downpipes.

He did PM me stating he's running high flow cats and he probably mentioned it somewhere on the board as well.

[533ogetnom]

one of the other things though, boost actually looks pretty normal, could it be that the UR pipes are only giving power over stock because of the added boost and this is taken away w/ procede

i cant imagine that would be it, but it seems strange not to be getting any gains at all

[Walked U]

Just curious but when you dynoed on the TT, procede, juice box thread were you running your exhaust?

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by Walked U

Just curious but when you dynoed on the TT, procede, juice box thread were you running your exhaust?

I was running the primary cat back.
The only difference between today's runs and the other runs is that the downpipes were added.

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by jon@themshop

Weather might affect it. Today was very hot. Even if fans were used it's still blowing hot air into the intercooler.

The AFRs look fine. There's no indication of knocks on the dyno chart. A very good spike pointing south indicates and knock and timing being pulled.

This was done at the same dyno but on different days. Perhaps next time Mr. 5 can dyno his BMW with the PROcede removed and just the downpipes then install the PROcede again and see what he gets. But at this point he's already spent a lot of time and money for these runs and he's getting nothing in return... I think.

I don't think the weather had anything to do with the no gains because I'm using the standard correction factor.
Here's an uncorrected graph and then a graph with the run conditions.
Run 10 is the procede only and the other runs are with the downpipes.

is this normal?

[NYCGarbagePrince]

The DPs free up backpressure. Everyone knows this. But I learned the hard way that without a proper tune they are useless. I ran procede with Catless DPs and they would put me in limp mode all the time. Like someone said earlier it leans the car out too much. Switched out my procede and got a better suited tune from AA and now my car runs great. Turbo Back exhaust and the right tune is going to be faster than any tune and no exhaust. Until i am proven differently I will stand by that statement. After the Release of V2 we will see if it truly cures all sickness and makes peoples cars go a little bit faster. For $135 its beginning to remind me of the Turbonator.

[Lee Rambler]

Originally Posted by NYCGarbagePrince

The DPs free up backpressure. Everyone knows this. But I learned the hard way that without a proper tune they are useless. I ran procede with Catless DPs and they would put me in limp mode all the time. Like someone said earlier it leans the car out too much. Switched out my procede and got a better suited tune from AA and now my car runs great. Turbo Back exhaust and the right tune is going to be faster than any tune and no exhaust. Until i am proven differently I will stand by that statement. After the Release of V2 we will see if it truly cures all sickness and makes peoples cars go a little bit faster. For $135 its beginning to remind me of the Turbonator.

lol

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

The spike is a measurement error. Partly caused by fresh air reversion into the tailpipe (when exhaust flow is low) and partly caused by response delay. This is just the way it is with tailpipe mounted wideband o2 sensors. Especially if you don't bolt the o2 sensor into a tube and stick it in at least 8" into the tailpipe. If you want to avoid this and get a more accurate reading, you will have to screw the dyno wideband into the downpipe.

shiv

Shiv, what aobut the software specificaly for the downpipes?
Will V2 help with this?