[1fastdoc]

I was recently looking at getting a WRX as a DD but I just couldn't get past how cheap it felt. Also looked at the STi and in doing so, have come across a lot of info on the Evo and it got me thinking.

I was at an open track event a year ago and one of the fastest cars out there was a modded STi. At one point it passed me and my instructor told me to just stay on his bumper. LOL. That lasted about 10 seconds -- the time it took to go through the next turn. Gone...

So it seems, on paper, on a tight track, that the AWD cars should lay waste to the M3's, the vettes, etc. But if that was really the case, I would imagine that BMW would make the M3 an AWD vehicle. Clearly, they haven't.

Why not? What am I missing? What is the advantage to NOT having AWD? Many times I've heard that the AWD cars are easier to drive fast on a course. Isn't that the goal?

And on a similar note, why is there such a discrepancy when it comes to AWD performance? You either pay $35k for an STi or you pay over $100k for a GTR or AWD Porsche. Where is the middle ground??

[Litos]

one of the biggest misconceptions is that AWD is some sort of performance God.

it's really not.......

for example, a stock STi is not going to go around Laguna Seca faster than a RWD 5.0 Mustang.....

people who think AWD is better are uneducated about the subject....

[1fastdoc]

Okay. So why will the 5.0 be faster? Does it make up time on the straights? Does it not actually lose much time on the twisties?

I'm asking a serious question because I truly don't understand why high performance AWD are so limited. Put that 5.0 up against the GTR and you'll have a different outcome.

[RandomHero]

To put it simply, AWD/4WD provides traction on a linear path (straight line). It provides very little benefit in corners. AWD also comes at the expense of added weight (transfer case, extra d.s. etc).

If you plan on rally crossing or doing some racing on the street, AWD is your friend. Otherwise it serves very little purpose when it comes to performance.

[jwzimm]

Originally Posted by RandomHero

To put it simply, AWD/4WD provides traction on a linear path (straight line). It provides very little benefit in corners. AWD also comes at the expense of added weight (transfer case, extra d.s. etc).

If you plan on rally crossing or doing some racing on the street, AWD is your friend. Otherwise it serves very little purpose when it comes to performance.

ORLY? A properly set up AWD system will destroy a RWD car in a tight corner. The ability to move power to any wheel that has traction and can pull the car through the corner is extremely useful. There is a very good reason the GTR and most supercars have an AWD system. There is only so much a single axel worth of tires can handle in terms of power and lateral grip.

[Litos]

Originally Posted by jwzimm

ORLY? A properly set up AWD system will destroy a RWD car in a tight corner. The ability to move power to any wheel that has traction and can pull the car through the corner is extremely useful. There is a very good reason the GTR and most supercars have an AWD system. There is only so much a single axel worth of tires can handle in terms of power and lateral grip.

"...that is soooooo not true..."

signed,
3 Vipers and 2 Vettes that have the fastest Lap Times at Laguna Seca



and all of the fastest lap cars are RWD.......you won't find an AWD car at the top of any fastest lap times list....

[Vic311]

Because real drivers like to oversteer

[Nkc]

cuz AWD is boring. Had an WRX and an A4 a while back and those were probably the worst in terms of feeling. I'm not gonna gun for the fastest lap times but I do enjoy driving rwd a lot more than awd and let's not get started on fwd.

[KingOfJericho]

You were beat by the STi because it was heavily modded, not because it has AWD. Those things can make crazy HP for relatively little money.

[pgviper]

AWD shines in low traction conditions. If you have 285 rear tires then the contact patch for a rear wheel drive car is 570. However if you have an all wheel drive car with 245's all around, then your contact patch is 980. I know there is more to it than that but as far as acceleration in low traction conditions is concerned, awd will shine. WHen going around a corner, the trick isn't exactly in the front wheels vs rear wheels setup like what an awd system will assist with. The trick is in a left side vs right side system, aka Limited slip differential. Look at the new corvette for example. It is rear wheel drive however the stiff frame and electronic LSD allow it to pull 1.11g. Thats the highest for ANY production vehicle. This is clearly not due to an awd system. It is due to the eLSD ability to transfer power between the left and right rear wheels as your going through a turn.

Hopefully i'm not completely wrong in this. I'm just applying general knowledge to what I picture happening on a vehicle through a turn (free body diagram FTW).

[Billup]

AWD needs to be kept on the dirt or snow tracks.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by Vic311

Because real drivers like to oversteer

This X1000

Originally Posted by Billup

AWD needs to be kept on the dirt or snow tracks.

And this.

BTW OP, the middle ground is called Audi.

Who wants to drive around with what feels like you passenger tugging on the steering wheel every time you hit the throttle?? Not this guy.

And yes, if you are going to produce a 600hp street car, as a manufacture it might make good sense to make it AWD since the people buying them have more money than driving skill.

[Litos]

this is the only reason why i miss owning my STi......

punishing modded V8's on street tires all day every day.....

my STi: Cobb Stage 2, ebay 3" TBE, injen intake
C5 Vette: intake, headers, catback, 6-speed

opening up a 5 car lead within 3 seconds of the race - priceless.

he caught me @ 110mph though....his car was a screamer.....

[kits135i]

Originally Posted by jwzimm

ORLY? A properly set up AWD system will destroy a RWD car in a tight corner. The ability to move power to any wheel that has traction and can pull the car through the corner is extremely useful. There is a very good reason the GTR and most supercars have an AWD system. There is only so much a single axel worth of tires can handle in terms of power and lateral grip.

ROFL!!! This has got to be one of the most stupidest things I have read on the internet in a VERY LONG TIME!!!

[KingOfJericho]

"most stupidest"

[Billup]

Originally Posted by kits135i

stupidest things

This is the most intelligent thing I've seen on the internet in a long time.

[Litos]

the 550hp AWD GTR can't even beat a 505hp RWD Z06 Vette around the Nurburgring.......

RWD, ya'll........

[elistan]

Originally Posted by 1fastdoc

So it seems, on paper, on a tight track, that the AWD cars should lay waste to the M3's, the vettes, etc. But if that was really the case, I would imagine that BMW would make the M3 an AWD vehicle. Clearly, they haven't.

Why not? What am I missing?

I wonder if perhaps it's not one of BMW's goals with the M3 make it the fastest street car. Fast, yes. But I suspect "lay waste to Vettes" isn't on their to-do list.

What is the advantage to NOT having AWD?

All other things being equal, an AWD system will add weight. There are numerous reasons why that is to be avoided.

Also, RWD cars tend to be more fun in a hooning sort of way.

Many times I've heard that the AWD cars are easier to drive fast on a course. Isn't that the goal?

Different people have different goals.

I've driven a 911 Carrera S and 911 Carrera 4S for a few laps back-to-back. Indeed, the 4S felt more stable and predictable - I felt more comfortable in it getting on the gas sooner coming out of corners than in the RWD car. I suspect you're right that if timed I would have been able to do faster laps in the 4S... But if I had more time in the S, to learn its limits? Dunno, actually. Porsche says the 4S is only 111 lbs heavier than the S - I don't know if the lighter weight of the S will overcome the corner-exit advantage of the 4S.

For track days, I'd certainly want a 4S over an S. When I go to the track I go knowing that I could totally demolish my car. Having that extra bit of stability the 4S offers would be nice.

However, for driving around the streets I love my RWD, no traction control, Torsen LSD equipped S2000. It's lively, responsive, and can be steered by the throttle. But it'll smack you in the face if you're at a track day not paying attention.

With proper tuning, I suspect an AWD race car that has the same weight and horsepower as a RWD race car will be faster. (Weight and power are often regulated in race series.) Consider Laguna Seca mentioned earlier - the fastest car (per http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna_seca.html) is a 2013 SRT Viper. 640 hp, 3297 lbs curb weight. A GTR is only 2.68 seconds slower, but does that with 545 hp and 3829 lbs. My math might be off, but I calculate that the Viper has a 27% advantage in power to weight ratio, but only a 3% advantage in lap time.

(As an aside, I'll mention that I believe the GTR's DCT gives it a significant advantage, so it's performance is not entirely down to the AWD system in my mind.)

[elistan]

Originally Posted by Litos

the 550hp AWD GTR can't even beat a 505hp RWD Z06 Vette around the Nurburgring.......

RWD, ya'll........

If Wikipedia is to be believed, keep in mind that the GTR was only 1.54 seconds behind (after 442 seconds - 0.3% difference) with the disadvantage of a "semi-wet" track. And despite more horsepower, the GTR is heavy enough to have a power-to-weight disadvantage compared to the Z06. (The lap time listed in Wikipedia was done with, it appears, the 523 hp version.) The fact that it was so close given those challenges is pretty remarkable. Strip the GTR down to Z06 weight (probably wouldn't be street legal then ) and adjust the hp down to 505 hp like with the Z06, and I suspect the tables would be turned...

[Litos]

Originally Posted by elistan

IConsider Laguna Seca mentioned earlier - the fastest car (per http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna_seca.html) is a 2013 SRT Viper. 640 hp, 3297 lbs curb weight. A GTR is only 2.68 seconds slower, but does that with 545 hp and 3829 lbs. My math might be off, but I calculate that the Viper has a 27% advantage in power to weight ratio, but only a 3% advantage in lap time.

the Aventador LP-400 is AWD with 690hp and STILL can't beat a Viper around Laguna Seca....

RWD, ya'll.......

[JasonCSU]

As some have pointed out, AWD is great for low traction situations. I absolutely love the traction my WRX gives me in the snow, on dirt roads, and playing on a rallycross course. However, when driving on dry paved roads or the track, I much prefer the RWD feel of my 135. As much as I like my WRX, I probably wouldn't own an AWD car if I lived somewhere that didn't snow.

[Litos]

Originally Posted by elistan

If Wikipedia is to be believed, keep in mind that the GTR was only 1.54 seconds behind (after 442 seconds - 0.3% difference) with the disadvantage of a "semi-wet" track.

it still lost, even with the misconception that AWD is better/faster.......