[nato-main-man-5am]

Apologies in advance. I have a e82, not an e90, but the sound systems are incredibly similar -- and while I am trolling the 1-er forum for ideas, I thought I'd see if any of the adults have ideas, too!

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It all started as the "hi fi" system, so it was easy to build on.

The story so far: Gladen 8 inchers under the seats, Morel Hybrid Ovations in the doors and sails using their custom crossover with the tweeter attenuation enabled.

OEM wiring left in place.

Using the balanced stereo flat output of the OEM headunit into a JL Audio 6 channel amp.

OEM rear deck speakers still in place.

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First thing I did was turn the rear deck speakers as far down as possible using the trim control on the JL Audio amp. Still louder than I would like. But not horrible.

I used an ohm meter to set the trim initially on the other channels.

Using info pulled from other build threads, I started with the crossover between the underseats and doors at 200hz.

I burned a disk with pink noise and a speaker phase test signal, busted out the JL Audio iphone app with phase check and RTA.

Confirmed/corrected each speaker's phase.

Then used the RTA app and pink noise to try to level match the underseat woofers and the doors.

This is where it got a little complicated. The phone was mounted on a stand where the driver's head would be. And I got close to a flat RTA response.

But there was a pretty big drop off below 100hz, and iterating by ear and by measurement, I ended up setting the underseat woofers lower than the RTA might suggest, in order to avoid muddying up the sound. I also iterated through a few different crossover points, from about 100 hz back up to 200hz, and settled at about 175 hz as best.

-----------------

But I think I can do better. Any pointers to online tutorials that might up my game?

On the other hand I may be maxing out the potential of this setup, and some EQ and time alignment might be necessary -- but I don't like to buy gear just for the heck of it!

[ctuna]

I have to run the fader at around -4(rear attenuated )
With the rear channels gains on the Jl 600/6 set to 0.
I have Morel Dotechs and Jehnerts.
Your crossover point for the Underseats is close to what mine is.
There is not much gain on the door speakers the underseats gains on mine
are set to about 11 o- clock a little less than half way .
The important thing is does it sound good to you.
I imagine if its anything like mine its night and day already.

[nato-main-man-5am]

Thanks for the photo. I should take a photo of mine. That's a good way to share.

I don't have the option to use the fader. The harness I bought just feeds the stereo signal into the JL amp and it is set to spread the sound to all six channels.

I'd guess the Gladen underseat woofers have a different sensitivity to the Jehnerts, and perhaps the Morel Dotechs versus the Hybrids are a bit different, too, so our gain settings may not be comparable even if we're getting the same decibels in the cabin.

Yes it's way better than stock.

But the soundstage is a bit low and congested.

I may be spoiled since I had an MS8 in there before, but it was finicky and unreliable so I pulled it out. I'm thinking I should put more effort into optimizing what I have before considering a technology solution.

[ctuna]

From some of the ms-8 threads I have read.
People are endlessly tweaking them and never quite happy
with the result. Then they break.
Having that fader active is pretty useful.
Especially since the stock speakers get to much power with
a Jl 600/6 its the only way to balance them out with the new
speakers.

[nato-main-man-5am]

Yah when the ms8 was working fine, it was actually pretty cool.

I might just disable the rear deck, not sure yet.

[Dannyboy]

I just finished fine tuning, or at least close to finished. I'm running cdt cl 42 in de doors and Jehnerts under seats with the JL audio 600/6 and I also have an audio control 30 band with separate left and right controls, which I think is important if you want to center the soundstage.

I'm not sure abiut you phones mic, I don't know how much it may need to be calibrated. But I used True Rta with a behringer ECM 8000mic and a calibration file to follow these steps below. THESE ARE NOT MY STEPS, I found them on the DIY siteand they've helped a lot AGAIN I DID NOT COME UP WITH THIS< JUST SHARING:





There are several different methods used to tune eqs. This is the one I use. An RTA is not needed if the steps are done correctly. This method uses crossovers and gain settings as the most important factor in tuning. I think the eq should be last in line when tuning. Remember after each step to write down your settings. If the sound gets worse, then you can go back to the previous step’s settings and start over.


1. Set all bands flat, as well as the head unit bass and treble.

2. Turn off the subs. Using music with a good bass line, run the highpass crossover up and down until the midbasses can play as low as possible without any distortion or excessive door panel vibrations.

3. Unhook the mids and tweeters, allowing only the midbasses to play. Listen to mono pink noise or a well-recorded song with a centered vocalist. Test CDs such as the IASCA test CD or Autosound 2000 Test CD 102 or 103 will work great. Listen to where the centered sounds are coming from. Then reverse the polarity of one midbass (Reverse the speaker wires coming from the passive crossover and going to the speaker, just flip the positive and negative wires. I usually flip the driver’s side speaker.) and re-listen to the test CD. If the sounds are more centered then keep it as is. If the centered sounds are more diffuse and un-locatable, then flip the polarity back to where it was originally.

4. Then unhook the midbasses and play the mids only and follow the same polarity and listening tests as before. Mark your best settings.

5. Do the same procedure for the tweeters.

6. When you have tested for the proper polarity from all three ranges of speakers, hook all of them back up with respect to each set of speaker’s best polarity. You can have any combination of polarity, such as all the midbass and tweeters straight and one midrange reversed.

7. Now you should have the correct “acoustic” polarity set within each set of speakers. Next is to set the acoustic polarity between the sets of speakers.

8. Listen to some very familiar music with a good range of sounds. Then flip both midbass’ polarity and listen again. Before you only flipped one midbass, now you are doing both at the same time. For example if the left midbass was reversed and the right was not before, now the left will be not reversed and the right will be. Listen to the music again. If the midbass is more powerful and full then leave the wiring as is. If the midbass sounds weaker and wrong then restore the wiring as before.

9. Perform the same listening tests while flipping the mids and tweeters, and use the wiring configuration that sounds the best.

10. If you have went though all these steps adjusting the polarity of the speakers then the system should sound really good without any eq adjustments. You might want to play with the gain adjustments on the crossover and/or amp to better blend all the speakers together.

11. Now onto the eq! The first eq step is to adjust the tonality. While listening to familiar music, adjust each individual band up and down slowly. When the music sounds better then move to the next band. Adjust the left and right bands equally. (We’ll get to the separate left and right adjustments soon.) It really does not matter if the bands are boosted or cut, just that it makes the sound better. Not every band needs to be adjusted. In fact if you did steps 1 thru 10 correctly you should not have to adjust over half the bands. Having a 1/3 octave eq does not mean you have to adjust every band. It means you have the ability to adjust each band if needed. Watch out for big jumps from band to band, like one band set to +4 and the next band set to –6.

12. Continue through all the bands, take a break, and do the same procedure over again. But this time the adjustments will be smaller as you get the tonality dialed in. This step might take several days, weeks, or longer.

13. In tuning you will find some eq bands will raise, lower, move the sound closer, or farther away if adjusted in certain manners. For example, lowering 5 KHz will generally move the soundstage farther away and raising 2 KHz will make the soundstage rise. Each vehicle and system will have different settings that will be the best. The best way to achieve awesome sound is to constantly adjust.

14. When you are satisfied with the tonality of the system, it is time to start adjusting the left and right channels separately. These adjustments should not affect the tonality, but improve on the imaging and soundstaging. Using the Autosound 2000 Test CD 102 or 103 “My Disk” listen to the individual frequency pink noise tracks. (Test CD103 has the tracks arranged in an easier configuration.) Each frequency band should sound like it is coming from the center of the soundstage. If one band is off to one side, then use each band’s left and right eq controls as a balance control. This is very similar to the head unit’s balance control, only now you are balancing each frequency band by itself. For example if 200 Hz seems to be shifted to the left of center, lower the left 200 Hz band and raise the right 200 Hz band one dB at a time until the band is centered. If a frequency is shifted to the right, lower the band’s right channel and raise the left channel in small amounts.

15. When you have when through all the bands take a break. Then later go back through each band one by one and make any further needed adjustments until all the frequencies are lined up in the center of the soundstage.

[Dannyboy]

OH and I have turned off the rears. Your front soundstage should be wide and deep enough that you don't need them.

[kaigoss69]

The iphone mic is not accurate below 150Hz. The app SPLnFFT is fairly accurate to 60Hz, because it compensates for the iPhone mic, but you have to use test tones instead of pink noise.

[Ml3456]

I put a remote on my JL 6/600 for the subs. When I turned the jeherts down it was amazing that the Focal door speakers were so quiet. I really had to turn the Jenherts down to make the system come alive.

[nato-main-man-5am]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy

I just finished fine tuning, or at least close to finished. I'm running cdt cl 42 in de doors and Jehnerts under seats with the JL audio 600/6 and I also have an audio control 30 band with separate left and right controls, which I think is important if you want to center the soundstage.

I'm not sure abiut you phones mic, I don't know how much it may need to be calibrated. But I used True Rta with a behringer ECM 8000mic and a calibration file to follow these steps below. THESE ARE NOT MY STEPS, I found them on the DIY siteand they've helped a lot AGAIN I DID NOT COME UP WITH THIS< JUST SHARING:





There are several different methods used to tune eqs. This is the one I use. An RTA is not needed if the steps are done correctly. This method uses crossovers and gain settings as the most important factor in tuning. I think the eq should be last in line when tuning. Remember after each step to write down your settings. If the sound gets worse, then you can go back to the previous step’s settings and start over.


1. Set all bands flat, as well as the head unit bass and treble.

2. Turn off the subs. Using music with a good bass line, run the highpass crossover up and down until the midbasses can play as low as possible without any distortion or excessive door panel vibrations.

3. Unhook the mids and tweeters, allowing only the midbasses to play. Listen to mono pink noise or a well-recorded song with a centered vocalist. Test CDs such as the IASCA test CD or Autosound 2000 Test CD 102 or 103 will work great. Listen to where the centered sounds are coming from. Then reverse the polarity of one midbass (Reverse the speaker wires coming from the passive crossover and going to the speaker, just flip the positive and negative wires. I usually flip the driver’s side speaker.) and re-listen to the test CD. If the sounds are more centered then keep it as is. If the centered sounds are more diffuse and un-locatable, then flip the polarity back to where it was originally.

4. Then unhook the midbasses and play the mids only and follow the same polarity and listening tests as before. Mark your best settings.

5. Do the same procedure for the tweeters.

6. When you have tested for the proper polarity from all three ranges of speakers, hook all of them back up with respect to each set of speaker’s best polarity. You can have any combination of polarity, such as all the midbass and tweeters straight and one midrange reversed.

7. Now you should have the correct “acoustic” polarity set within each set of speakers. Next is to set the acoustic polarity between the sets of speakers.

8. Listen to some very familiar music with a good range of sounds. Then flip both midbass’ polarity and listen again. Before you only flipped one midbass, now you are doing both at the same time. For example if the left midbass was reversed and the right was not before, now the left will be not reversed and the right will be. Listen to the music again. If the midbass is more powerful and full then leave the wiring as is. If the midbass sounds weaker and wrong then restore the wiring as before.

9. Perform the same listening tests while flipping the mids and tweeters, and use the wiring configuration that sounds the best.

10. If you have went though all these steps adjusting the polarity of the speakers then the system should sound really good without any eq adjustments. You might want to play with the gain adjustments on the crossover and/or amp to better blend all the speakers together.

11. Now onto the eq! The first eq step is to adjust the tonality. While listening to familiar music, adjust each individual band up and down slowly. When the music sounds better then move to the next band. Adjust the left and right bands equally. (We’ll get to the separate left and right adjustments soon.) It really does not matter if the bands are boosted or cut, just that it makes the sound better. Not every band needs to be adjusted. In fact if you did steps 1 thru 10 correctly you should not have to adjust over half the bands. Having a 1/3 octave eq does not mean you have to adjust every band. It means you have the ability to adjust each band if needed. Watch out for big jumps from band to band, like one band set to +4 and the next band set to –6.

12. Continue through all the bands, take a break, and do the same procedure over again. But this time the adjustments will be smaller as you get the tonality dialed in. This step might take several days, weeks, or longer.

13. In tuning you will find some eq bands will raise, lower, move the sound closer, or farther away if adjusted in certain manners. For example, lowering 5 KHz will generally move the soundstage farther away and raising 2 KHz will make the soundstage rise. Each vehicle and system will have different settings that will be the best. The best way to achieve awesome sound is to constantly adjust.

14. When you are satisfied with the tonality of the system, it is time to start adjusting the left and right channels separately. These adjustments should not affect the tonality, but improve on the imaging and soundstaging. Using the Autosound 2000 Test CD 102 or 103 “My Disk” listen to the individual frequency pink noise tracks. (Test CD103 has the tracks arranged in an easier configuration.) Each frequency band should sound like it is coming from the center of the soundstage. If one band is off to one side, then use each band’s left and right eq controls as a balance control. This is very similar to the head unit’s balance control, only now you are balancing each frequency band by itself. For example if 200 Hz seems to be shifted to the left of center, lower the left 200 Hz band and raise the right 200 Hz band one dB at a time until the band is centered. If a frequency is shifted to the right, lower the band’s right channel and raise the left channel in small amounts.

15. When you have when through all the bands take a break. Then later go back through each band one by one and make any further needed adjustments until all the frequencies are lined up in the center of the soundstage.

Thanks for posting this. It will give me another approach.

Originally Posted by kaigoss69

The iphone mic is not accurate below 150Hz. The app SPLnFFT is fairly accurate to 60Hz, because it compensates for the iPhone mic, but you have to use test tones instead of pink noise.

I'll have to check that out. In theory, the folks at StudioSix who made the JL Audio app have correction profiles in the app. In practice, I'm not convinced!

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Here is a BAD photo of my amp settings. The flash blew out the level settings but of course those won't really translate.... (I'll have to try again.) It does show, in fact, that I have closed in on about 200hz for the crossover.

[Dannyboy]

[QUOTE=nato-main-man-5am;14456578]Thanks for posting this. It will give me another approach.



Yeah no problem, let me know if you have any questions.

[TMR]

Where are you located?

[nato-main-man-5am]

sf bay area

[bmw325i]

You can only do so much without some type of processor. Take a look at the Alpine H800.

[nato-main-man-5am]

Sure, or the PS8 or better the 6to8. But I am not confident I'm doing the best I can even with what I have installed.

[Dannyboy]

Originally Posted by bmw325i

You can only do so much without some type of processor. Take a look at the Alpine H800.

Yeah I agree, without a processor you're very limited. Or at least a 30 band eq.

[nato-main-man-5am]

Originally Posted by kaigoss69

The iphone mic is not accurate below 150Hz. The app SPLnFFT is fairly accurate to 60Hz, because it compensates for the iPhone mic, but you have to use test tones instead of pink noise.

Is this one more accurate that those from StudioSix? Okay, I guess their free RTA one is not so good any longer, since the last mic compensation profile they released for it was the iphone 4! But their paid version appears to be up to date with iSO6 and iphone 5 compensation built in.

I'd prefer an RTA app since I can see so much at once, interactions etc....

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If I wasn't so lazy, I'd bust out my calibrated mic, an active pre-amp, a long cable to connect to my computer, run REW, etc. But if I can spend five bucks on an iphone app to save me that time, I will

[E30 Racer]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy

Yeah I agree, without a processor you're very limited. Or at least a 30 band eq.

+1

Really depends on what your expectations are. I was underwhelmed by simply replacing the E82 HiFi parts with basically the same equipment as the OP (but with a HD600/4 and no rear channels). The DSP made all the difference with respect to SQ and imaging.

[nato-main-man-5am]

Originally Posted by E30 Racer

+1

Really depends on what your expectations are. I was underwhelmed by simply replacing the E82 HiFi parts with basically the same equipment as the OP (but with a HD600/4 and no rear channels). The DSP made all the difference with respect to SQ and imaging.

Okay you guys are killing me.....it's on the list.

I had an MS8 for a while. When it worked, I like it. But it was cumbersome and inconsistent.

But I know ultimately there is no way around it.

Which one are you sporting?

[nato-main-man-5am]

Since I'm "sick" of the rear deck speakers, I suppose I could go for a 4 channel amp with DSP, replacing the JL Audio amp. That makes the cost and space commitment more palatable....

[E30 Racer]

Originally Posted by nato-main-man-5am

Which one are you sporting?

The 6to8. My install is written up here: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=654680

Trying to avoid the temptation of their new BT streaming feature. Not cheap though, and I don't drive the car enough to justify it.

[nato-main-man-5am]

Originally Posted by E30 Racer

The 6to8. My install is written up here: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=654680

Trying to avoid the temptation of their new BT streaming feature. Not cheap though, and I don't drive the car enough to justify it.

I'll take a look. I tried their FSA and found it super non intuitive and ended up selling it.

I just need basic eq, time alignment, and ideally crossover control, all in one unit -- with a straightforward way to measure and apply the corrections.

The ms8 sounded good, but the lack of manual controls was annoying since the results were inconsistent and jbl stopped fixing the firmware.

The FSA was too far the other way, just a quasi basic kind of time alignment....and running back to the trunk to make adjustments is my new definition of annoying. At least with something that can be measured I can have the readout outside the seating position, so I am not hopping in and out dozens of times to test each adjustment.

It's really ashame the shops around here focus on decibels of bass and not on accurate musical reproduction. I'd settle for paying for someone else to feel the pain.

But I see the Mosconi unit has a remote control app so that might solve that. I have a calibrated measurement mic to do final tweaks, so I can take the readings.

From reading your thread it sounds like you got it really dialed in! Cool. Since this is my daily driver, it's worth making it awesome, for me.