[Iceberg3232]

Guys,

So I was messing around with tunes the other day talking things over with the WEDGE man and was wondering what is the maximum amount of timing that people have 'dared' to add to the N54.

I rememeber when 13 degrees of timing was 'going to blow your bottom end out' but now we're seeing that 15 degrees can be done no problem.

The only reason I ask is because this weekend WEDGE helped me switch back end tunes to allow for a map 0 daily drive tune which targets about 14.8 degrees of timing (by the way this backend flash is one awesome DD tune). He told me to reduce timing on the Procede in Map 2 but I accidentally reduced timing for Map1, leaving Map 2 at about 2.25/2.5 degrees being added. Took the car out, waited for her to heat up, and romped it from first to second. Holy Hell!

I was targeting about 18 degrees of timing and the car hauled like I've never felt before. This was obviously a mistake and we removed the additional timing but I'm getting curious see how 18 degrees of timing would do in a 3rd gear pull. Has anyone played around with the Procede tables adding in a degree here and there with a back-end flash to see where the DME starts pulling timing?

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Adding timing blindly is never a good idea.
It should always be done in a controlled setting like on a dyno.

There you can add timing conservatley and see if there is any significant power gain.

You can either stop pulling timing when you start seeing no power gain AKA MBT or when timing is being pulled (sometimes too late). Any time your adding timing you must be able to view all cylinder timing as some cylinders are notorious for being quieter then others.

Let's say you end up at 18 degrees and then timing is pulled. You need to account for difference in ambient temperatures, octane consistency and other exterior conditions.
So if you found MBT at 18 you should still tone down ignition about 2 degrees just for safety if you want a reliable, consistent and safe tune.

This practice is followed by all high end tuners around the country. Just some food for thought. If you are tuning for maximum output for methanol and that is your only band-aid for safe ignition timing, please stop. Methanol is and always will be a band-aid. If you have uneven meth distribution in 1 of your cylinders you are asking for trouble.

[Iceberg3232]

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

Adding timing blindly is never a good idea.
It should always be done in a controlled setting like on a dyno.

There you can add timing conservatley and see if there is any significant power gain.

You can either stop pulling timing when you start seeing no power gain AKA MBT or when timing is being pulled (sometimes too late). Any time your adding timing you must be able to view all cylinder timing as some cylinders are notorious for being quieter then others.

Let's say you end up at 18 degrees and then timing is pulled. You need to account for difference in ambient temperatures, octane consistency and other exterior conditions.
So if you found MBT at 18 you should still tone down ignition about 2 degrees just for safety if you want a reliable, consistent and safe tune.

This practice is followed by all high end tuners around the country. Just some food for thought. If you are tuning for maximum output for methanol and that is your only band-aid for safe ignition timing, please stop. Methanol is and always will be a band-aid. If you have uneven meth distribution in 1 of your cylinders you are asking for trouble.

Running meth and 100% E85. Would like to see or hear input from these other tuners where the timing meets MBT.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Iceberg3232

Running meth and 100% E85. Would like to see or hear input from these other tuners where the timing meets MBT.

Atleast you are on 100% E85.

I would personally tune to maximum power with the E85. Then use the Meth as a buffer/band aid to account for inconsistency in ethanol content and other exterior conditions.

[Iceberg3232]

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

Atleast you are on 100% E85.

I would personally tune to maximum power with the E85. Then use the Meth as a buffer/band aid to account for inconsistency in ethanol content and other exterior conditions.

Exactly what I'm doing. Really only using Meth to drop IAT's when needed...which certainly isn't needed in 40 degree weather.

[BQTuning]

When I am ready to throw my car away I will try 18° timing

On E50 I did hit 15° timing but not until after 5500 RPMs and no timing pulls

[marc@x-ph.com]

I hit 16 degrees in the midrange on E50 consistently over and over again. Then I added meth for IATs and some more insurance.

Try 16 degrees and compare power output. If running 2 more degrees up there is not adding a lot of power then I'd just tone it down a bit.

[Iceberg3232]

Originally Posted by BuraQ

When I am ready to throw my car away I will try 18° timing

On E50 I did hit 15° timing but not until after 5500 RPMs and no timing pulls

Running 15.8 with ZERO timing pulls as is...

Anyone push to 17 to see where we stop gaining power? I can't imagine 18degrees = MBT, but that's just a butt dyno reading. Car felt considerably stronger at that timing, although I never got her out of second gear.

I'm obviously not looking to run this timing on my own car for the time being so everyone can calm down on the safety commentary...although I know it was only looking out for a fellow N54 member

Anyone else pushing beyong 16 degrees, if only in certain RPM ranges?

[VNeBLOB42]

I am at 13° with E50 S1+ , no DPs.

very safe for a DD.

[Iceberg3232]

Originally Posted by VNeBLOB42

I am at 13° with E50 S1+ , no DPs.

very safe for a DD.

I wonder if @Dzenno would have anything to chime in here considering his mad skillllz....

[135Pats]

18 degrees of advance. Damn. FWIW I’m targeting 13.5 upstairs on a slightly more aggressive Cobb E30 map. A 3rd gear log usually climbs to somewhere between 12.5-13.5 degrees. I have a tough time believing there are serious power gains to be had targeting more than 16 degrees or so, but like you said in 2009 people would have called you crazy for targeting 14 degrees. And we know that’s safe provided you have sufficient octane headroom.

[Iceberg3232]

Originally Posted by 135Pats

18 degrees of advance. Damn. FWIW I’m targeting 13.5 upstairs on a slightly more aggressive Cobb E30 map. A 3rd gear log usually climbs to somewhere between 12.5-13.5 degrees. I have a tough time believing there are serious power gains to be had targeting more than 16 degrees or so, but like you said in 2009 people would have called you crazy for targeting 14 degrees. And we know that’s safe provided you have sufficient octane headroom.

Appreciate the commentary Pats! Can't be the only one this curious?!? Surely won't be the one doing this since I don't have a dyno at my discretion but someone's got to thinking along these lines and have the means to do it...

[WedgePerformance]

I'm targeting on my flash 15 mid and 16 from 5k. Car pulls like crazy even with my mid to sub teen flash boost targets. New PROcede should be here today or tomorrow. Would like to schedule some dyno time at RPM in Portland or even at COBB to see where my MBT is.

[Allen@MOTIV]

Everything is relative and needs to be balanced. Fuel, boost, EGTs, back pressure, VANOS, driving conditions and a host of other factors come into play and need to be considered. When talking about pushing timing advance past where is normally considered "safe" the car has to be on a dyno.

On a car fulfilling a role as a DD there is absolutely no reason to just keep pushing timing just for a couple of HP but at the cost of long term safety. Find a place where the car is happy and makes good power and call it a day.

[Iceberg3232]

Originally Posted by Allen@PTF

Everything is relative and needs to be balanced. Fuel, boost, EGTs, back pressure, VANOS, driving conditions and a host of other factors come into play and need to be considered. When talking about pushing timing advance past where is normally considered "safe" the car has to be on a dyno.

On a car fulfilling a role as a DD there is absolutely no reason to just keep pushing timing just for a couple of HP but at the cost of long term safety. Find a place where the car is happy and makes good power and call it a day.

No disrespect Allen but if we all did that, you'd be out of business!

The car is no longer a DD, although I did reference a DD tune so I can appreciate the response. The DD is there only because I don't want a race tune everytime I take her out. Just looking for some of our higher HP guys running full E85 setups to chime in out of curiosity.

So Allen, if I came to PTF (which I may do) asking for an all out race/dyno tune, would you consider pushing timing above 16 degrees or have you already determined that there's no/minimal gains in doing so?

Keep up the great work at PTF!

[WedgePerformance]

^ I have to agree. My car runs extremely well for flash only (as @Iceberg3232 knows) and stacked with boost control on stock turbos hitting 480 whp is amazing considering where we were just two years ago.

[Allen@MOTIV]

Originally Posted by Iceberg3232

No disrespect Allen but if we all did that, you'd be out of business!

The car is no longer a DD, although I did reference a DD tune so I can appreciate the response. The DD is there only because I don't want a race tune everytime I take her out. Just looking for some of our higher HP guys running full E85 setups to chime in out of curiosity.

So Allen, if I came to PTF (which I may do) asking for an all out race/dyno tune, would you consider pushing timing above 16 degrees or have you already determined that there's no/minimal gains in doing so?

Keep up the great work at PTF!

Thank you for the kind words

Engine safety is our #1 goal and always will be. With that said, If you ask for an all out race map then we will happily oblige However, we would suggest something like that be done during a remote dyno tuning session if at all possible. All cars respond differently but on stock frame turbos there is only so much power to be made. Pushing past 16 degrees is unlikely to result in any power gains worth the risks. The DME does an awesome job of knock detection but it's better to not have to rely on that.

[Iceberg3232]

Originally Posted by Allen@PTF

Thank you for the kind words

Engine safety is our #1 goal and always will be. With that said, If you ask for an all out race map then we will happily oblige However, we would suggest something like that be done during a remote dyno tuning session if at all possible. All cars respond differently but on stock frame turbos there is only so much power to be made. Pushing past 16 degrees is unlikely to result in any power gains worth the risks. The DME does an awesome job of knock detection but it's better to not have to rely on that.

Thanks for the input!

[BQTuning]

What I have discovered is that at higher advance timing the less timing pulls of course with the correct octane. Static 14° timing mid range + should be the norm for E50, but 15°+ timing I would run elevated pass 5500 RPMs instead of being static at peak boost in the RPM range usually 3500 rpm - 4500 rpm

As boost falls off timing would increase. This was just a BS map I made for shits and giggle while learning ATR and was never able to finish it since I had to give back the Cobb I borrowed. My V3 is on its way though and may redo all of this since I learnt some new stuff

[Iceberg3232]

Originally Posted by BuraQ

What I have discovered is that at higher advance timing the less timing pulls of course with the correct octane. Static 14 timing mid range + should be the norm for E50, but 15+ timing I would run elevated pass 5500 RPMs instead of being static at peak boost in the RPM range usually 3500 rpm - 4500 rpm

As boost falls off timing would increase. This was just a BS map I made for shits and giggle while learning ATR and was never able to finish it since I had to give back the Cobb I borrowed. My V3 is on its way though and may redo all of this since I learnt some new stuff

Would make sense since more timing equal less time for DME to react and pull timing???

[BQTuning]

Originally Posted by Iceberg3232

Would make sense since more timing equal less time for DME to react and pull timing???

It never dawned on me to see it that way, however its a point to consider. Either way it is acceptable to the DME, and I would rather run elevated timing starting from 14° then have it increase after 5.5k RPMs as the DME will see the timing drop coming, but will never meet it as it will be right at the shifting point 6k - 6.2k RPMs

Not every car can do this through all gears, I would only assume the MT and DCT cars can, as the AT car suffers from flat line timing in certain gears, but have yet to see it perform on an AT car.

[AWTT335i]

Originally Posted by Iceberg3232

Running 15.8 with ZERO timing pulls as is...

Anyone push to 17 to see where we stop gaining power? I can't imagine 18degrees = MBT, but that's just a butt dyno reading. Car felt considerably stronger at that timing, although I never got her out of second gear.

I'm obviously not looking to run this timing on my own car for the time being so everyone can calm down on the safety commentary...although I know it was only looking out for a fellow N54 member

Anyone else pushing beyong 16 degrees, if only in certain RPM ranges?

I used to run 17* on E50 + meth.