[midlife]

i am close to my 1,000 mile breakin, and have not really run the car very hard yet.

my altitude is approx 9,000 feet, and i definitely have turbo lag until about
3,000 rpm. and the few times i was up to 6,500 rpm, it did not seem my car would pull very hard past 6,500 rpm:

for you lucky guys at sea level, do u have turbo lag?
and at what rpm do u feel the car start to pull hard?
...and it pulls hard up to what rpm?

thanks.

[Dan335i]

My 335i coupe,6MT,w/spt pack. Pulls hard from 2500 up until around 6500 also. BTW at 9000ft your making more boost than us guys down here.At that sea level your ECU automatically increases your boost to compensate for the altitude.I,m not positive how much extra boost.Thats what the JB1 does. It makes the ECU think its at higher altitude and increase the boost and adjusts everything accordingly.

[midlife]

Originally Posted by Dan335i

My 335i coupe,6MT,w/spt pack. Pulls hard from 2500 up until around 6500 also. BTW at 9000ft your making more boost than us guys down here.At that sea level your ECU automatically increases your boost to compensate for the altitude.I,m not positive how much extra boost.Thats what the JB1 does. It makes the ECU think its at higher altitude and increase the boost and adjusts everything accordingly.

thanks for info, i am surprised that u need 2,500 rpm before it pulls hard.
if u are correct,, then i am not that disappointed in my engine performance at this extreme altitude (because):

stock ecu can compensate for higher altitude only up till approx 5,500 feet.
i am way past that = not enough air for my 335 here (hence, installing RPi intercooler next week).

in addition, more ecu boost (ecu altitude compensation) at higher altitude ONLY makes up for the less dense air....so basically, up to approx 5,500 feet (when the ecu cannot compensate any more) the "extra boost" only gives u the same power as sea level (without the ecu altitude compensating). SO, higher altitude basically sucks bigtime.

anyone else out there care to confirm that a stock 335 at sea level only starts pulling hard at 2,500 rpm and only up till 6,500 rpm??

thanks

[mrvuml]

At 9000' a turbo engine (without adaptive boost) loses about 17% of its power. OTOH, a normally aspirated engine would lose about 27% of its power at 9000'

[e.n335]

IMO it makes so sense to try to pull hard from 2000 / 2500 rpm. Your car is not a diesel. Shift back and pull hard from 3500 rpm. Better results, better for the engine.

You can try to go the PROcede route. Buy a PROcede dark and see if it helps. If you want more power after that, upgrade to V1 or V2. I see virtually zero risk to try a tune which delivers moderate boost and fuel.

If you would be not satisfied ( which I highly doubt ) you can sell the PROcede easily. My ( PROcede V2 ) 335i pulls very hard at 6000 feet. Had no chance to test it up to now at 9000 feet.

- Eugen

p.s. Don't forget to change oil now.

[midlife]

Originally Posted by e.n335

IMO it makes so sense to try to pull hard from 2000 / 2500 rpm. Your car is not a diesel. Shift back and pull hard from 3500 rpm. Better results, better for the engine.

You can try to go the PROcede route. Buy a PROcede dark and see if it helps. If you want more power after that, upgrade to V1 or V2. I see virtually zero risk to try a tune which delivers moderate boost and fuel.

If you would be not satisfied ( which I highly doubt ) you can sell the PROcede easily. My ( PROcede V2 ) 335i pulls very hard at 6000 feet. Had no chance to test it up to now at 9000 feet.

- Eugen

my car at 9,000 feet has seems slow up to around 2,500 rpm. at about 3,000 rpm it starts to pull. around 3,500 rpm it gets stronger, and at approx 4,000 rpm it pulls hard.

i was just wondering where the sea level guys start to feel the power.

i have JB1 coming soon. but i will tell you with my current stock setup, there is a BIG difference betweeen 6,000 and 9,000 feet. when i go down just 1,000 feet i can already feeel the difference.

u say ur proceed V2 car pulls strong at 6,000 feet, at what rpm do you start to feel a surge, and at what rpm does it start to pull hard? and it pulls hard up to approx what rpm?

i was not sure any proceed or excede would be safe at 9,000 feet...
i took the safer route with the lower boost JB1. even terrry suggested i go with JB1 not JB2.

any comments re proceed or exceed at 9,000 feet and using only 85 octane available here (i am in a developing country). note that some say that for every 1,000 feet, you need 1 less U.S. octane. (BUT, there is a very strong rumor here that 89 octane is coming here next month!! hope so big time!!)

i am most interested in your feed back as well as some sea level guys.

oh, btw, u say downshit to keep rpms up...i hate it when i am at a light, start rolling, and cannot downshift (because i am in first!).

thanksr

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by midlife

my car at 9,000 feet has seems slow up to around 2,500 rpm. at about 3,000 rpm it starts to pull. around 3,500 rpm it gets stronger, and at approx 4,000 rpm it pulls hard.

i was just wondering where the sea level guys start to feel the power.

i have JB1 coming soon. but i will tell you with my current stock setup, there is a BIG difference betweeen 6,000 and 9,000 feet. when i go down just 1,000 feet i can already feeel the difference.

u say ur proceed V2 car pulls strong at 6,000 feet, at what rpm do you start to feel a surge, and at what rpm does it start to pull hard? and it pulls hard up to approx what rpm?

i was not sure any proceed or excede would be safe at 9,000 feet...
i took the safer route with the lower boost JB1. even terrry suggested i go with JB1 not JB2.

any comments re proceed or exceed at 9,000 feet and using only 85 octane available here (i am in a developing country). note that some say that for every 1,000 feet, you need 1 less U.S. octane. (BUT, there is a very strong rumor here that 89 octane is coming here next month!! hope so big time!!)

i am most interested in your feed back as well as some sea level guys.

oh, btw, u say downshit to keep rpms up...i hate it when i am at a light, start rolling, and cannot downshift (because i am in first!).

thanksr

Ouch ... I guess the 85 octane is your problem. Go down, buy 91 / 93 octane and try again at 9000 feet. With 85 octane I would not tune at all. I could be wrong but I would try higher octane first.

- Eugen

[midlife]

Originally Posted by e.n335

Ouch ... I guess the 85 octane is your problem. Go down, buy 91 / 93 octane and try again at 9000 feet. With 85 octane I would not tune at all. I could be wrong but I would try higher octane first.

- Eugen

i would be happy to pay $5.00 a gallon if i could get 95 octane in this country. i have investigated many ways to mix and boost my octane, but:

1/ aviation fuel has lead
2/ race gas here has lead
3/ octane boosters (the best ones like torco and NOS) NOT sold anywhere here. plus they turn your internals orange so warantee voiding is a possibility.
4/ toluene in theory could work, but possibility of fuel delivery seal faluire.
5/ anyone have any other ideas??

not sure how much the low octane gas affects my stock car. have been told that for every 1,000 feet, u need 1 less octane... anyway, rumor has it we will have 93 or 95 octane within a week or so.ALL my fingers are crossed.

re your car at 6,000 feet, kindly enlighten me re:
1/ do you have turbo lag (when u were stock? and now with the proceed)
2/ when does your car START to pull weel ( when u were stock, and now with the proceed).
3/ how high are your rpms when your hard pulls start to wane? (when u were stock, and now with the proceed).

how about you sea level guys, some kindly chime in.

thanks

[midlife]

Originally Posted by mrvuml

At 9000' a turbo engine (without adaptive boost) loses about 17% of its power. OTOH, a normally aspirated engine would lose about 27% of its power at 9000'

how much HP % u think my 335 WITH adaptive boost looses at 9,000 feet? Next week, i am installing the RPi intercooler. according to m & m's experience, this should help me a bit....any comments?

2 days after IC i am installing JB1. a bit concerned about JB1 due to 9,000 feet, and highest octane we currently have is 85,but we may be getting 93 or 95 in this country next week... ! am hoping the JB1 works in my current high altitude/low octane enviornment, and will work better if we get 93/95 octane.

maybe later some dps, i have 2 friends here with new cars (they r breakin them in now) that i would love to beat: a 911 S4, and the new M3. at sea level i would not have a chance, but way up here, theoretically i may have them in a straight line ...

interested ina any or all comments re above.

thanks

[Dr_Dirt]

Why do you think Toluene would give you fuel delivery seal issues?
Toluene is in your gas now, you just need a little more of it...

Edit: I guess if your getting 93-95 octane in a week you don't need to worry about boosters...

[judec]

The higher the altitude above sea level, the lower the octane requirement. As a general rule of thumb, for every 300m or 1000ft above sea level, the RON value can go down by about 0.5. For example an 85 octane fuel in Denver will have about the same characteristics as an 87 octane fuel on the coast in Los Angeles.

So that's one of the reasons they are selling low octane fuel around U. Sufficient for most cars (what does not mean higher octane wouldn't be beneficial for U). 85 RON @ 9000ft = 89.5 RON @ sea level. Not that bad.

[Sniz]

I think you should try some Torco..........You don't have to run it all the time you know, so I wouldn't worry about the "orange" issue too much.

I cant chime in on your questions that you seem to desperately want answers to...i'm not stock anymore. Sorry. However, here is a stock 335 dyno...so that should answer your question if you look at it. The lower single line is the stock...higher one is a tuned car. Just posting for info reasons.




I do have a question though, is JB1 going to be safe for your car at that altitude? If its already tricking your altimeter to think your at 5000' or so....then won't it now trick your car to think your on top of Mt. Everest or something? Does the JB1 adapt to your actual altitude or just increase your boost by a set altitude?

Example - maybe it adds 5000' regardless of where you are.
So for me: 500' + 5000' = 5500' No problem for the stock ECU
You: 9000' + 5000' = 14,000' Might be a problem?

Not trying to start anything, just curious??

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by midlife

i would be happy to pay $5.00 a gallon if i could get 95 octane in this country. i have investigated many ways to mix and boost my octane, but:

1/ aviation fuel has lead
2/ race gas here has lead
3/ octane boosters (the best ones like torco and NOS) NOT sold anywhere here. plus they turn your internals orange so warantee voiding is a possibility.
4/ toluene in theory could work, but possibility of fuel delivery seal faluire.
5/ anyone have any other ideas??

not sure how much the low octane gas affects my stock car. have been told that for every 1,000 feet, u need 1 less octane... anyway, rumor has it we will have 93 or 95 octane within a week or so.ALL my fingers are crossed.

re your car at 6,000 feet, kindly enlighten me re:
1/ do you have turbo lag (when u were stock? and now with the proceed)
2/ when does your car START to pull weel ( when u were stock, and now with the proceed).
3/ how high are your rpms when your hard pulls start to wane? (when u were stock, and now with the proceed).

how about you sea level guys, some kindly chime in.

thanks

Hi,

I have a steptronic. When I push the pedal rpm raises to ~ 2000 and the car pulls immediately. There is no noticeable lag.

I can't tell you how the car behaves stock, I installed the PROcede at 160 miles, after I checked everything works well. It did not feel much different at 6000 feet, a little less power but still very strong.

- Eugen

[mrvuml]

I'm not entirely sure about this but at low rpms, before the turbo kicks in with boost, the engine is behaving like its normally-aspirated so significant power loss (close to 30% at your altitude) until that turbo comes on w/boost, probably in the 2500-3000 rpm range.
Btw, where do you live thats at 9,000'?

[midlife]

Originally Posted by judec

The higher the altitude above sea level, the lower the octane requirement. As a general rule of thumb, for every 300m or 1000ft above sea level, the RON value can go down by about 0.5. For example an 85 octane fuel in Denver will have about the same characteristics as an 87 octane fuel on the coast in Los Angeles.

So that's one of the reasons they are selling low octane fuel around U. Sufficient for most cars (what does not mean higher octane wouldn't be beneficial for U). 85 RON @ 9000ft = 89.5 RON @ sea level. Not that bad.

thanks for your input, but i am a little confused as to why you refer to RON. in the u.s., your octane rating is actually the average of ron + mon or (ron + mon divided by 2).

but if your calculations/formula is correct for RON, i can use it.
note that gas here is 89 RON which is equal to approx 85 u.s. octane.
using your calculations, (and assuming the "RON" you refer to is actually u.s. octane), then i have 89.5 octane which is still below the bmw recommended min 91 octane. but i am at least getting close.

i am just hoping this rumor about 93/95 octane is true, then i have one of my limiting factors taken out

[midlife]

Originally Posted by Sniz

I think you should try some Torco..........You don't have to run it all the time you know, so I wouldn't worry about the "orange" issue too much.

I cant chime in on your questions that you seem to desperately want answers to...i'm not stock anymore. Sorry. However, here is a stock 335 dyno...so that should answer your question if you look at it. The lower single line is the stock...higher one is a tuned car. Just posting for info reasons.




I do have a question though, is JB1 going to be safe for your car at that altitude? If its already tricking your altimeter to think your at 5000' or so....then won't it now trick your car to think your on top of Mt. Everest or something? Does the JB1 adapt to your actual altitude or just increase your boost by a set altitude?

Example - maybe it adds 5000' regardless of where you are.
So for me: 500' + 5000' = 5500' No problem for the stock ECU
You: 9000' + 5000' = 14,000' Might be a problem?

Not trying to start anything, just curious??

1/torco and NOS not available here. i have heard the rest of the "boasters" are cr*ap.

2/ thanks for your dyno post. i do not really know how to read dyno chats, but the sinlge lower (stock) line has a pretty even slope from 2,000 rpm to about 6,000 rpm. this would indicate to me that there is not much lag (if at all), for the stock car and it (HP and therefore pulling power) should be pretty constant from 2 - 6,000 rpm...correct? if so, i can use that as a guideline to compare my high altitude and low octane performance.

3/ i am not very technical, so i trusted terrry at juicebox who indicated that JB1 better for my situation. JB1 has lower boost than JB2 which both have lower boost than proceed. JB1 is probably similar to other tuner's LBT (for altitude) maps.

terry said that i should just watch out for ANY detonation/preignition. if that does not happen i should be fine...he also said i would probably get a limp mode before any preignition or engine damage....i plan to be super careful and conservative when first running the JB1. if i does not work for me, i can return it.

maybe eugene with the proceed at 6,000 ft can chine in re the technicals for ecu mods at altitude.

[Evo8MRto335I]

The efective way is to install a generic water/methanol/alcohol kit. This will be your equivalent to racegas, it will have the same efect and it will activate on demand(only when you boost to a certain level).

There are many other memebers on this forum that uses water/methanol/alcohol that could give you feedback as well. I am running methanol on my other car (not on the BMW yet) but the efects are great.

my .2c

[midlife]

Originally Posted by Evo8MRto335I

The efective way is to install a generic water/methanol/alcohol kit. This will be your equivalent to racegas, it will have the same efect and it will activate on demand(only when you boost to a certain level).

There are many other memebers on this forum that uses water/methanol/alcohol that could give you feedback as well. I am running methanol on my other car (not on the BMW yet) but the efects are great.

my .2c

yeah, i have definitely thought of that,
but it is not a stealth type of mod so it should probably wait for my warantee period (only 2 yrs ) to be up...correct?

i am a newbie, but if it is VERY safe (my car is a keeper) then can u recommend a very good, reliable, safe (with safeguards) BASIC kit for non motorheads to use? i can probably have someone here install a simple, basic kit... is there such a thing? or are these injection kits complicated by nature??

yea, if the rumored 93/95 octane gas does not come, i would definitely consider water/meth/alcohol. just water would help would it not?? remember, i am at HIGH altitude.

look forward to any comments/ advice.

[Calgary Agent]

Originally Posted by midlife

thanks for your input, but i am a little confused as to why you refer to RON. in the u.s., your octane rating is actually the average of ron + mon or (ron + mon divided by 2)

The member who quoted you the RON octane numbers is from Slovakia, where octane is measured using RON. A few countries, including the USA and Canada, use the avg (RON+MON)/2

I'm curious as to what you hope to achieve by adding a larger intercooler? You haven't mentioned what country you live in, but I can't think of many places at 9,000 ft asl that would have ambient temperatures high enough to gain any advantage from up-sizing your intercooler.

As you alluded to, even with a tuner that boosts your turbo output to the max the ECU allows for *elevation compensation* (with perhaps an additional 3psi of boost on top of that), the absolute pressure of your a) non-boosted intercooled charge, and b) your intake charge is still going to be less than if your vehicle was at seal level.

Unless of course you're in some type of high elevation tropical jungle with that has ambient temperatures in excess of 30 degrees C.

I'd hold off tuning your vehicle until you can source fuel with a min (RON+MON)/2 of at least 89

[DBville]

Originally Posted by Calgary Agent

I'd hold off tuning your vehicle until you can source fuel with a min (RON+MON)/2 of at least 89

+1!!

Tuning the car for more power will add boost. With the low octane gas, it will probably start knocking, and pulling timing, reducing the gains from the tunning. The timing being pulled (or not advanced, however you want to look at it) is your problem now. Adding boost will just make it worse - probably not adding any real power.

[seven_227]

3000-6500 rpms

[midlife]

Originally Posted by Calgary Agent

I'm curious as to what you hope to achieve by adding a larger intercooler? You haven't mentioned what country you live in, but I can't think of many places at 9,000 ft asl that would have ambient temperatures high enough to gain any advantage from up-sizing your intercooler.

As you alluded to, even with a tuner that boosts your turbo output to the max the ECU allows for *elevation compensation* (with perhaps an additional 3psi of boost on top of that), the absolute pressure of your a) non-boosted intercooled charge, and b) your intake charge is still going to be less than if your vehicle was at seal level.

Unless of course you're in some type of high elevation tropical jungle with that has ambient temperatures in excess of 30 degrees C.

I'd hold off tuning your vehicle until you can source fuel with a min (RON+MON)/2 of at least 89

1/ my town is small, and i do not metion whre i live cause of mods & warantee issues.
2/ at sea level IC intercooler claims to boost approx 25 rwhp.
m&m tested his spearco IC as stated that although he did not see any power gains, he COULD run his car at altitude using regular proceed map as opposed to before the IC upgrade when he needed LBT proceed map. also, i believe he reported that he ran better on 91 with new IC thaqn before.
lastly, because of less heatsoak, his car ran multiple runs without engine fade.


EVEN THOUGH I AM AT HIGH ALTITUDE i hope i can see some of the claimed 25hp sea level claims. if m&m proceed ran better at altitude with his new IC, i am hoping my RP IC helps me at altitude also.