[335R1]

Nice cheap shot Shiv. This must be Vishnu's newest marketing campaign.

A home tuner gets bent out of shape and blames a reputable business when he lacked some knowledge and caused his own damage.

[k726]

On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Adrian Z Karborani wrote:
If I was to run say map 3 would we run into some problems?

From: Terry Burger
Subject: Re: Overboost
To: "Adrian Z Karborani"
Date: Tuesday, June 22, 2010, 7:14 PM
No don't run map 3. Given your
targets it needs to be the special map.

Even though I wanted to go against what Terry advised, he still told me what I SHOULD do. I followed what he suggested to make sure everything is working okay. He did not just tell me to go ahead and see what would become of it. Those accusations are completely uncalled for. (Mind you I'm not even running 1/100th of the risk Enrita was.)

-Adrian

[alpinedevil335]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Not sure how different of a story the private emails project.

Also, why are other jb3 users having the same glow ignition/superknock codes that Erita had before his engine failed?

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...=glow+ignition

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...=glow+ignition

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...=glow+ignition

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...=glow+ignition

What can we conclude with this? Do you agree that there could be many more users with the same reoccuring code that don't have the ability to read/confirm the code? Did you notice that none of those user were running "bleeding edge" maps/boost levels.

There's an obvious reason why this is happening specifically to JB tunes. But at the risk of having this discussion go down the drain in flames, I'm not going to say it.

Instead, I just want to know what you think of it? Can all these accounts be attributable to user error, as you suggested is the case with Enrita's engine failure?

A level-headed flame-free response would be appreciated...

Shiv

Could be one of very many causes. We both know its not the tune ALONE causing this.
According to you what is the "obvious reason"?

[k726]

Originally Posted by Cornhusker

I hardly ever post but after reading terry's comments on the other site I think that his shoot from the hip demeanor when tuning a car with turbos he's never tuned before by email to europe is ridiculous. He never said anything at all when enrita asked for 25psi, except to add race gas, etc.

He could have at least said that he has no idea whether it's safe or not as it's untested but if I was going to test it here's how I would do it......

If you're savvy enough to know about running higher boost, or too stupid to really know the risk and limits of pushing the stock motor, then it doesn't matter what the Tuner tells you if you're not going to follow it. Simple.

[waterboy2]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Not sure how different of a story the private emails project.

Also, why are other jb3 users having the same glow ignition/superknock codes that Erita had before his engine failed?

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...=glow+ignition

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...=glow+ignition

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...=glow+ignition

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...=glow+ignition

What can we conclude with this? Do you agree that there could be many more users with the same reoccuring code that don't have the ability to read/confirm the code? Did you notice that none of those user were running "bleeding edge" maps/boost levels.

There's an obvious reason why this is happening specifically to JB tunes. But at the risk of having this discussion go down the drain in flames, I'm not going to say it.

Instead, I just want to know what you think of it? Can all these accounts be attributable to user error, as you suggested is the case with Enrita's engine failure?

A level-headed flame-free response would be appreciated...

Shiv

In one of those posts you quote the user specifically says he is getting those codes on a custom flash tune. The other two talk about how they are running higher maps in another thread on pump gas. We all know those codes mean knock warning but that is all you could come up with? For all the people who push their tunes past the suggestions and you have 4 reports of codes and 1 of them is a custom flash tune? If you search around you'll see plenty of reports of codes and problems with your tuning as well. As well as accusations of blown motors and turbos.

Personally I think your participation here is underhanded and disingenuous.

[blacknbean]

Originally Posted by waterboy2

In one of those posts you quote the user specifically says he is getting those codes on a custom flash tune. The other two talk about how they are running higher maps in another thread on pump gas. We all know those codes mean knock warning but that is all you could come up with? For all the people who push their tunes past the suggestions and you have 4 reports of codes and 1 of them is a custom flash tune? If you search around you'll see plenty of reports of codes and problems with your tuning as well. As well as accusations of blown motors and turbos.

Personally I think your participation here is underhanded and disingenuous.

welcome to the site

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by alpinedevil335

Could be one of very many causes. We both know its not the tune ALONE causing this.
According to you what is the "obvious reason"?

Actually, it is the tune that is causing it. The glow ignition codes occurs when the the DME either encounters audible knock or knock that requires more than a certain amount of reactive ignition retard (from knock control system) to resolve. This is a very serious warning code. As such, it triggers a limp mode to protect the engine. This is fact.

Also fact: Excessive knock (or excessive knock retard) is caused by running an ignition advance curve that is too aggressive for the given fuel octane, charge temp and boost pressure. In the case of the JB3, the ability to offset ignition advance setpoint is not present despite initial claims otherwise. As such, the DME targets the ignition advance curve that was calibrated to be used in a stock car running a stock tune of 5-8psi. Again, this is fact.

In piggybacks that do offer this ability (AEM, HKS, APEXi, Haltech, Motec, CPE, Procede, etc,), thes ignition targets are offset as a function of increased boost pressure, increased IAT and effective octane. This is in order to relieve the DME's knock sensor from the duty of having to wait for knock to occur before aggressively jumping into action. As such, this proactive approach greatly reduces the likelihood of this problem to occur in the first place. And this makes it safer for the engine. Yes, our engines are very durable. But that should not be an excuse to apply fundamentally unsafe tuning methods that haven't been applied by any respected tuning facility since the mid-80s..

These are all very basic concepts of engine tuning. Any google search will find countless articles, ranging from basic to advance, saying the exact same thing. The BMW engine is fundamentally no different than any other 4 stroke engine. As such, it follows the same basic tuning principles. These principles have been applied for decades.

As most people are now understanding, this device did not re-write those rules:

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by waterboy2

In one of those posts you quote the user specifically says he is getting those codes on a custom flash tune. The other two talk about how they are running higher maps in another thread on pump gas. We all know those codes mean knock warning but that is all you could come up with? For all the people who push their tunes past the suggestions and you have 4 reports of codes and 1 of them is a custom flash tune? If you search around you'll see plenty of reports of codes and problems with your tuning as well. As well as accusations of blown motors and turbos.

Personally I think your participation here is underhanded and disingenuous.

Read again Terry. All 4 out of 4 were jb3 users. 2 of them were running map5, 1 was running map 7 and one was running a custom tuned (with Terry) map1. All on 93 and up octane. Plenty more links showing glow ignition codes with jb3s. I just picked the first 4 in the search results (I searched for "glow ignition"). Please read my previous post and see if that explains why this glow ignition problem is more prevelent on jb3 tunes than another other tune. You know this better than anyone else. I know this for a fact because I hear the same from many of your former customers.

So instead of accusing me of being "underhanded", try to bring some facts to the table. Logic and reason speak louder than unsupported accusations of disingenuity.


shiv

[rbaldwin28]

Does any one know what was damaged? Head Gasket seems to be my first thought after the white and blue smoke comment.

[waterboy2]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Read again Terry. All 4 out of 4 were jb3 users. 2 of them were running map5, 1 was running map 7 and one was running a custom tuned (with Terry) map1. All on 93 and up octane. Plenty more links showing glow ignition codes with jb3s. I just picked the first 4 in the search results (I searched for "glow ignition"). Please read my previous post and see if that explains why this glow ignition problem is more prevelent on jb3 tunes than another other tune. You know this better than anyone else. I know this for a fact because I hear the same from many of your former customers.

So instead of accusing me of being "underhanded", try to bring some facts to the table. Logic and reason speak louder than unsupported accusations of disingenuity.


shiv

Do you call anyone who can see through your antics terry or should I consider myself gifted?

A fact:

Originally Posted by Baracus135i

So after a couple of weeks without a code I figure that it’s safe to
try an ECU flash from one of our local tuners. Once again we load
everything up and all’s fine for a few days, until I do another run on
the freeway (also cold outside) and the same thing happens but this
time 30F1 cylinder 5? The tuner was totally shocked that the super
knock code had resurfaced. He has done many x35i’s and has never seen
the glow ignition code appear on one of his tunes.

A quick search of this forum will show many codes and problems reported with your tuning. That is a fact. You are in this thread trying to capitalize on a members misfortune by making tacky marketing points and taking support questions out of context. That is a fact. If you are going to have a my shit don't stink attitude you should be sure to wipe first.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by waterboy2

Do you call anyone who can see through your antics terry or should I consider myself gifted?

A fact:



A quick search of this forum will show many codes and problems reported with your tuning. That is a fact. You are in this thread trying to capitalize on a members misfortune by making tacky marketing points and taking support questions out of context. That is a fact. If you are going to have a my shit don't stink attitude you should be sure to wipe first.

Not super-knock/glow ignition codes. Which is the important topic at hand here. Perhaps you missed that while trying to derail this thread. Nothing tacky about bringing up that point. Especially when its cause is supported basic engine tuning theory.

Originally Posted by rbaldwin28

Does any one know what was damaged? Head Gasket seems to be my first thought after the white and blue smoke comment.

Enrita posted full teardown pics here.

Summary: cylinder 2 ring land cracked due to detonation. Shifterboy45 offered a good analysis in that thread. Head gasket looked fine. As did the other 5 cylinders. The basic engine design looks great, fwiw.

shiv

[rbaldwin28]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Enrita posted full teardown pics here.

Summary: cylinder 2 ring land cracked due to detonation. Shifterboy45 offered a good analysis in that thread. Head gasket looked fine.

Thanks, that's what I was looking for.

[rbaldwin28]

Originally Posted by waterboy2

Do you call anyone who can see through your antics terry or should I consider myself gifted?

A fact:



A quick search of this forum will show many codes and problems reported with your tuning. That is a fact. You are in this thread trying to capitalize on a members misfortune by making tacky marketing points and taking support questions out of context. That is a fact. If you are going to have a my shit don't stink attitude you should be sure to wipe first.

It is suspect that you join E90 post and your first two posts you launch an attack on Shiv. It almost seems like there is some history there or something. Whats the deal?

[k726]

I personally like the fact that you can customize a map to your preference given you know exactly what you're doing. Unfortunately it only takes 1 idiot to ruin that.

[rbaldwin28]

Originally Posted by k726

I personally like the fact that you can customize a map to your preference given you know exactly what you're doing. Unfortunately it only takes 1 idiot to ruin that.

Yea, bottom line is the buck stops with the end user. So does the BILL.

[GeorgeSmooth]

Being in the tuning industry in the past a tuner has the biggest responsibility with use of the maps he sends out, but more importantly with the use of the word "no". It does not matter what caused the engine breakdown to happen, its like you are giving bullets to someone who wants to commit suicide. For the sale of a JB3 in my opinion it was a risk that Terry should not have taken regardless if he is in the right or wrong.

[rbaldwin28]

Originally Posted by GeorgeSmooth

Being in the tuning industry in the past a tuner has the biggest responsibility with use of the maps he sends out, but more importantly with the use of the word "no". It does not matter what caused the engine breakdown to happen, its like you are giving bullets to someone who wants to commit suicide. For the sale of a JB3 in my opinion it was a risk that Terry should not have taken regardless if he is in the right or wrong.

I don't know about your suicide statement since I doubt it was his intent to destroy the motor. Although if somebody wanted to use my tune to do something I myself had not tested it to do I would have said no. I also understand how Terry would expect that some one modding there car as much as this guy would have a understanding of the risks involved running over 20psi. It matters a little what failed because if he threw a rod it would not be the tunes fault but being that it was directly related to running more boost it places more blame on the tuner.

[cn555ic]

Originally Posted by jpsimon

I don't speak Swedish, can only count in Finnish and say some swears and "the sun is shining"... but that's what google translate is for! very interesting to say the least.


"I drove with settings that Terry gave me the day before. He did not say to me that I would run with Racegas with this settings or that it was a must. Terry fucked up and gave me the high boost any settings that destroyed my car. Had he told me to run ONLY with race gas and meth, I had not run the entire day on that map and then I had also poured into them 25 ltr. race gas I had in the trunk.
We've tried lots of different settings, and he got lots of logs and knew exactly how much would be boosted.
I trusted him and look what happened to the car ... He should be glad I did not destroy him öffentiligt in all forums. He knows well that he pajade my car, believe me."

WOW...even though this message is brought out, no one will take heed and listen to this...its a shame..

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by CBR335

This is the moral of the story.

This is a perfect example of taking someone's commentary out of context and putting your own spin on it.

You missed the point entirely.

[Bagelfast]

If you take the time and read Terry's thread on N54, you can see Enrita is just pissed about what happened and that he had something to prove that day and wanted to beat everyone.

How old is enrita, he sounds like a 18 year old who was in a rush to beat everyone and didnt care about the problems he might have.

Sad to see this and him talking BS on other forums and wont say it up front like a man, but glad to see Terry show the Emails to show the true story.

[dzenno]

sucks

[enrita]

wow so now its not even possible to vent out his frustration for a 10.000 USD blown engine after a few drinks without starting a massive discussion on the board? Jeez those 90 years old ladies in my building are less prone to all this gossiping. what happened has happened... Had i boost less or had more octane the outcome would have been different...