[Hotcoupe]

peterg1965 Now we are, apparently, part of a united Europe, the case for harmonising taxes must be compelling, particularly for fuel. The table (albeit slightly out of date) shows that the UK has the 2nd highest petrol prices in Europe and the most expensive Diesel in Europe. Let's face it, tax on fuel in the UK is not about saving the planet its about adding to the coffers at the Treasury. More money to waste on Quango's, 'initiatives', wars, MPs expenses and the like.

http://www.see-search.com/business/f...iceseurope.htm

It would appear that you and I share similar thinking Peter,a kindred spirit.

Perhaps we could form a viable opposition party to the numpty's who currently run the country.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by peterg1965

If I was in charge, I would use the tax windfall to make a very positive public gesture. It would take the form of giving every schoolchild (under the age of 18) a free bus pass (public transport pass) to use whenever and wherever they wanted.

I'd vote for you Pete. I think that is genius.

Originally Posted by Hotcoupe

You mention assumptions earlier, I would be interested to hear how you gleaned the above conclusion?

Sorry for this. It was someone else who said in this thread that they didn't believe in man made global warming and I wrongly attributed this remark to you.

Originally Posted by Hotcoupe

I think this point was the one that I originally got heated about. You gave the impression that in your opinion anyone who owned a car should be able to afford it, and if you could afford any fuel increase, so should they.

This is obviously not the case, and I'm glad that is not your stance

I'm glad you understand my position now.

Originally Posted by Hotcoupe

That could well be the case, however it will be YOU & everyone else who pay's in the long run.All companies need to make a profit, hauliers are no different. Increases in fuel duty will only be passed onto the consumer. The hauliers have an element of power in making an impact on Govt thinking, although in saying that, today's protest seems to have had little to no effect.

The road hauliers associations particular problem is that their members can be undercut by operations based in continental europe, because they can fill up more cheaply before crossing the channel. I sympathise with their plight, but the need to reinforce the message that fuel has a real environmental cost is more important to me.

I also feel we will soon see a major change in the way haulage is dealt with in the UK - a return to rail and possibly even the use of canals (tesco have just done this).

Originally Posted by Hotcoupe

I still can not agree with the above,I'm not asking for cheap fuel, just a cost that is sustainable for people who really rely on their cars. Whilst yes I can afford the increases, others can not. I'm not suggesting I like increased taxation, it goes without saying I don't.

This is our only real point of difference. I understand your point, but I feel that fuel is still affordable for the majority and that reducing the cost would have negative consequences.

Those people who struggle with fuel prices are struggling because their position is unjust in other ways. I'd rather see other taxes reduced, the minimum wage increased and some responsibility on the part of employers for their staffs travel arrangements than a cut in fuel costs.

Originally Posted by peterg1965

Let's face it, tax on fuel in the UK is not about saving the planet its about adding to the coffers at the Treasury.

There is some truth in this, but I do feel that the fuel escalator would have been removed for political reasons were it not for the negative environmental associations which would result. The government has drafted taxes specifically for environmental reasons, which I have personally borne the brunt of (e.g. emissions based company car tax, climate change levy).

It's not that the tax will save the planet, but rather that reducing it will create a perception that we should feel free to continue to burn as much fossil fuel as we want.

[Evil Diesel]

The case for mankind's effect on global warming is far from clear.

It is naive to belive that UK fuel or car tax is going to make any difference. The reality is that all of the oil that is pumped out of the ground is being burnt. All that the government achieve is a little kudos in the Islington set (of which I imagine you are an honourary member NFS)

[squeezebm]

Originally Posted by Evil Diesel

The case for mankind's effect on global warming is far from clear.

It is naive to belive that UK fuel or car tax is going to make any difference. The reality is that all of the oil that is pumped out of the ground is being burnt. All that the government achieve is a little kudos in the Islington set (of which I imagine you are an honourary member NFS)

Evil,leave it

[Evil Diesel]

Your right - pouring fuel on the fire is not environmentally friendly and someone may complain.

[Hotcoupe]

I'm not ignoring Pete's excellent contribution, but I'll respond to NFS

needforspeed Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotcoupe
You mention assumptions earlier, I would be interested to hear how you gleaned the above conclusion?

Sorry for this. It was someone else who said in this thread that they didn't believe in man made global warming and I wrongly attributed this remark to you.

No need to apologise NFS, as in part your assumption was correct.
The evidence for global warming is real and undeniable.
However I remain to be convinced that it is man made.No doubt I will get lambasted and someone will bamboozle me with 'facts' and statistics,be warned however, I will come back with the same to argue the opposite.

In my opinion, Govt's, and our own is by far the worst, uses the whole 'man made' global warming theory to just milk us for more taxes, big business is also jumping on the bandwagon to maximise profits, my own company is just as guilty as other's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotcoupe
I think this point was the one that I originally got heated about. You gave the impression that in your opinion anyone who owned a car should be able to afford it, and if you could afford any fuel increase, so should they.

This is obviously not the case, and I'm glad that is not your stance

I'm glad you understand my position now.

No probs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotcoupe
That could well be the case, however it will be YOU & everyone else who pay's in the long run.All companies need to make a profit, hauliers are no different. Increases in fuel duty will only be passed onto the consumer. The hauliers have an element of power in making an impact on Govt thinking, although in saying that, today's protest seems to have had little to no effect.

The road hauliers associations particular problem is that their members can be undercut by operations based in continental europe, because they can fill up more cheaply before crossing the channel. I sympathise with their plight, but the need to reinforce the message that fuel has a real environmental cost is more important to me.

Why can they fill up more cheaply, cheaper taxes of course!
One can hardly blaim the Hauliers for their actions can they.We are supposedly all in Europe, if that's the case, a level playing field is called for.

I also feel we will soon see a major change in the way haulage is dealt with in the UK - a return to rail and possibly even the use of canals (tesco have just done this).

I could not agree more, in fact if you go back in the thread I state exactly the same.Get the lorries of the roads, it will make them safer, less congested, leading to more fuel effiency fromm cars, therefore less emissions, less global warming, apparently
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotcoupe
I still can not agree with the above,I'm not asking for cheap fuel, just a cost that is sustainable for people who really rely on their cars. Whilst yes I can afford the increases, others can not. I'm not suggesting I like increased taxation, it goes without saying I don't.

This is our only real point of difference. I understand your point, but I feel that fuel is still affordable for the majority and that reducing the cost would have negative consequences.

This point is obviously going to be one we differ on, but we can agree to disagree

Those people who struggle with fuel prices are struggling because their position is unjust in other ways. I'd rather see other taxes reduced, the minimum wage increased and some responsibility on the part of employers for their staffs travel arrangements than a cut in fuel costs.

Agreed on most points and all very good suggestions, however any increases imposed on employers will always come back to bite us up the arse, in the way of increased prices

Quote:
Originally Posted by peterg1965
Let's face it, tax on fuel in the UK is not about saving the planet its about adding to the coffers at the Treasury.

There is some truth in this, but I do feel that the fuel escalator would have been removed for political reasons were it not for the negative environmental associations which would result. The government has drafted taxes specifically for environmental reasons, which I have personally borne the brunt of (e.g. emissions based company car tax, climate change levy).

We have all borne these extra taxes NFS, and as I commented above, I remain to be convinced by the 'Man made' global argument that supports the Govt's stance on thisSee

It's not that the tax will save the planet, but rather that reducing it will create a perception that we should feel free to continue to burn as much fossil fuel as we want.

See my comments; re 'Man made' global warming

[dxb335d]

aint read any of the last few pages.. too much writing for my blond head to take in

[CrimsonRedE93]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

aint read any of the last few pages.. too much writing for my blond head to take in

[NFS]

Originally Posted by Evil Diesel

The case for mankind's effect on global warming is far from clear.

It is naive to belive that UK fuel or car tax is going to make any difference. The reality is that all of the oil that is pumped out of the ground is being burnt. All that the government achieve is a little kudos in the Islington set (of which I imagine you are an honourary member NFS)

I agree with this to some extent .. the scientific consensus is that global warming is happening. Mankinds responsibility for this is less easy to prove. I think it's possible and even likely that we are causing it, but no one knows for sure.

So, we have to make a choice. We can assume that our actions do contribute to global warming or we can assume they do not.

If we assume they do, but are wrong the downside is an unnecessary adjustment to our economic systems.

If we assume they don't and we are wrong the downside is a global catastrophe.

Seems obvious to me that the right choice is to do something to address CO2 emissions "just in case"

I don't think UK fuel tax will make a difference on it's own. My point was, in the face of a growing determination to act on climate change, reducing the tax on a fossil fuel is a bad decision.

[jwbmw]

Originally Posted by needforspeed

I agree with this to some extent .. the scientific consensus is that global warming is happening. Mankinds responsibility for this is less easy to prove. I think it's possible and even likely that we are causing it, but no one knows for sure.

So, we have to make a choice. We can assume that our actions do contribute to global warming or we can assume they do not.

If we assume they do, but are wrong the downside is an unnecessary adjustment to our economic systems.

If we assume they don't and we are wrong the downside is a global catastrophe.

Seems obvious to me that the right choice is to do something to address CO2 emissions "just in case"

I don't think UK fuel tax will make a difference on it's own. My point was, in the face of a growing determination to act on climate change, reducing the tax on a fossil fuel is a bad decision.

A post that I have sympathy with. Whether we like it or not we are going to have to change our behaviours. Global warming is becoming more fact than fiction and anyway oil will runout before our children our dead. The Government needs to encourage us to change but it is ashame that the always resort to the stick (tax ) and seldom the carrot. The problem is compounded now from 10 years of stealth taxes leading to mistrust