[RambleJ]

Originally Posted by boostm3

Has there not been one report by or about an owner of a tuned N54/N55 of a denial of coverage incident by a dealer? Or are you just saying you havent seen any incidents since bmw added the 'tuner codes' ? Is this lack of reported incidents youre referring to nothing more than anecdotal? Do you doubt there's an unflashable FASTA area which may be read by bmw?

IOW, what specificially is the part you dont believe?

The warranty denials we have seen on here are due to user error, not clearing the codes before going in, leaving the tune in, leaving intake on cause they think they have a cool SA. Have never seen an "I had cleared all my codes and my warranty still got denied WTF?" threads.

[shifterboy45]

Originally Posted by RambleJ

Unless you add some substance to your comments, its nothing but hearsay. And thats what it is going to be taken for. We are not seeing any difference in warranty denials, and have not seen any changes in the BMW vs tuners aspect since they first updated the DME and added the tuner codes, which since have been easily avoidable.

i dont understand this hostility... am i to be summarily dismissed because you find no substantive evidence.

if you look back at all my input on this forum, its not been intended to:

1. berate a product or mystify a fact that is truely unbelievable

ive attempted to enhance this community by adding value wherever possible within limits.

if you find that objectionable, im not going to play the i'll prove it to game to satisfy anyone curiousity. if i was a troll, looking to start a FUD riot about tunes -- i would have taken a totally different path -- maybe by supplying half-truths and assumptions validated by documentation, but for what good?

im just letting you know that you will economically fail to win this battle.. words are worthless without the $$ to back it.

find yourself in a auditable situation, and find out there is a cost to pay ..

everybody wants to tune -- but there are few that will not cry when their cars are flagged and find no safe warranty haven.

[shifterboy45]

Originally Posted by RambleJ

The warranty denials we have seen on here are due to user error, not clearing the codes before going in, leaving the tune in, leaving intake on cause they think they have a cool SA. Have never seen an "I had cleared all my codes and my warranty still got denied WTF?" threads.

and youre making the assumption that everybody that has or will tune will come to this forum, since its a great source of reliable information -- huh?

btw: most people how do get busted -- normally feel like a heel (because they got caught) -- and unless its in group of complainers.. they just fade into the wood work... getting their repairs done at independents..

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by shifterboy45

btw: most people how do get busted -- normally feel like a heel (because they got caught) -- and unless its in group of complainers.. they just fade into the wood work... getting their repairs done at independents..

+1

The notion that forum thread topics are an accurate representation of real-world conditions is pretty funny.

[boostm3]

Originally Posted by shifterboy45

i dont understand this hostility... am i to be summarily dismissed because you find no substantive evidence.

if you look back at all my input on this forum, its not been intended to:

1. berate a product or mystify a fact that is truely unbelievable

ive attempted to enhance this community by adding value wherever possible within limits.

if you find that objectionable, im not going to play the i'll prove it to game to satisfy anyone curiousity. if i was a troll, looking to start a FUD riot about tunes -- i would have taken a totally different path -- maybe by supplying half-truths and assumptions validated by documentation, but for what good?

im just letting you know that you will economically fail to win this battle.. words are worthless without the $$ to back it.

find yourself in a auditable situation, and find out there is a cost to pay ..

everybody wants to tune -- but there are few that will not cry when their cars are flagged and find no safe warranty haven.

What makes it all the more daunting is the virtual certainty that eventually, tuned and non tuned N54/N55 cars alike will suffer an HPFP failure. At least the N54s have that newly invoked extended warranty, however how much good do tuned folks think that will do as bmw becomes ever vigilant and begins reading unflashable/un-code-erasable areas of memory on problematic engine appointment srvc calls? I havent seen any evidence that youve got any personal agenda whatsoever... I think what you say makes perfect sense.

I think the big mystery people would probably like to know is why divulging more info would be against your own 'self interest'... a reference youve made several times. The fact that you have a poker in the fire will tend to make some people skeptical .... Nevertheless, Im convinced youre on the level.

[shifterboy45]

Originally Posted by boostm3

What makes it all the more daunting is the virtual certainty that eventually, tuned and non tuned N54/N55 cars alike will suffer an HPFP failure. At least the N54s have that newly invoked extended warranty, however how much good do tuned folks think that will do as bmw becomes ever vigilant and begins reading unflashable/un-code-erasable areas of memory on problematic engine appointment srvc calls? I havent seen any evidence that youve got any personal agenda whatsoever... I think what you say makes perfect sense.

I think the big mystery people would probably like to know is why divulging more info would be against your own 'self interest'... a reference youve made several times. The fact that you have a poker in the fire will tend to make some people skeptical .... Nevertheless, Im convinced youre on the level.

ok fair enough .. thats an answerable question, and i feel its only just to clear the air.

I have been with the BMW product line in following capacities:

started off in 1986 with a extended warranty administrator as lead for a claims group -- our company set the standard for VSC for private label high risk import cars (this where I learned my warranty coding skills)

transistioned to the dealer in 1990 -- 4yrs stint as a service advisor..

back to another VSC company to help get them started on BMWs QCP program
(shift of business since my former company went under) for a year

warranty manager of one of the largest (at that time) BMW dealers outside of AG. --three year stint that is where is learned what capabilities were available to the engineering dept. having first hand knowledge of technical resolutions to complex warranty issues. if something got kicked -- i was informed because it would show on my rejections. some of the stuff most people were not aware of, but it was daily business for us. the who, what, where and why ..

short trip cleaning up a MBZ store prior to a audit .... few months

hating life as a warranty manager at a Infiniti store -- very short lived

several more years as an advisor at 2 BMW Centers

now i do business development.. relationship building with customers

but it all started for me as a General Motors technician -- worked my way up and never forgot who really writes my paycheck -- the customer..

[BmwFanFL]

Similar to Boost, I find SB's comments on the level. A little obscure at times, but on the level. I have a strong, diverse technology background. I haven't seen anything that isn't both feasible and reasonable.

I don't claim to know what BMW actually does, but I am very confident that what SB is pointing out is a real possibility for people to be aware of. If I ran BMW's ECU engineering dept, I would consider it negligent not to be able to get a strong sense from FASTA or similar data of likely tuning behavior. Corporate policy might not use that data for many reasons, including spooking customers or false positives. However, if the balance of tuning and warranty were to become a serious issue for BMW's image or economics, they likely have the tools to strike back.

If you can't afford damage to car, or have limited knowledge, be very modest with your tune. If you avoid severe damage, the warranty issue is much less likely to arise.

I appreciate all the views here -- even some of the near tuner war stuff.

Originally Posted by shifterboy45

ok fair enough .. thats an answerable question, and i feel its only just to clear the air.

I have been with the BMW product line in following capacities:

started off in 1986 with a extended warranty administrator as lead for a claims group -- our company set the standard for VSC for private label high risk import cars (this where I learned my warranty coding skills)

transistioned to the dealer in 1990 -- 4yrs stint as a service advisor..

back to another VSC company to help get them started on BMWs QCP program
(shift of business since my former company went under) for a year

warranty manager of one of the largest (at that time) BMW dealers outside of AG. --three year stint that is where is learned what capabilities were available to the engineering dept. having first hand knowledge of technical resolutions to complex warranty issues. if something got kicked -- i was informed because it would show on my rejections. some of the stuff most people were not aware of, but it was daily business for us. the who, what, where and why ..

short trip cleaning up a MBZ store prior to a audit .... few months

hating life as a warranty manager at a Infiniti store -- very short lived

several more years as an advisor at 2 BMW Centers

now i do business development.. relationship building with customers

but it all started for me as a General Motors technician -- worked my way up and never forgot who really writes my paycheck -- the customer..

[RambleJ]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

+1

The notion that forum thread topics are an accurate representation of real-world conditions is pretty funny.

No, but it does gives you quantifiable evidence. And we all know that when people's sh*t hits the fan, guess what they usually do. Run to the internet to complain about it.

[boostm3]

Originally Posted by BmwFanny

Similar to Boost, I find SB's comments on the level. A little obscure at times, but on the level. I have a strong, diverse technology background. I haven't seen anything that isn't both feasible and reasonable.

I don't claim to know what BMW actually does, but I am very confident that what SB is pointing out is a real possibility for people to be aware of. If I ran BMW's ECU engineering dept, I would consider it negligent not to be able to get a strong sense from FASTA or similar data of likely tuning behavior. Corporate policy might not use that data for many reasons, including spooking customers or false positives. However, if the balance of tuning and warranty were to become a serious issue for BMW's image or economics, they likely have the tools to strike back.

If you can't afford damage to car, or have limited knowledge, be very modest with your tune. If you avoid severe damage, the warranty issue is much less likely to arise.

I appreciate all the views here -- even some of the near tuner war stuff.

Not sure I totally agree with this part.... If we can presume that the FASTA data area is most likely to be read in an effort to help explain car part failure, then any damage/failure will likely prompt a FASTA readout according to the internal memo to dealers Shiv posted a few pages back. That is to say, it neednt be damage caused overtly by a customer tune; just as likely, a rather routine HPFP failure, or other such routine malfunction would just as likely prompt the readout.. In either case, the customer will be hosed.

In this light, it seems to me only logical that folks embarking on the tuning journey realize its a pay to play endeavor thereafter.

[Rob@Cobb]

From our years dealing with Automotive companies we have seen they care little about what we do, sometimes they are very excited to see what we can do with their car, except in the case when there are problem caused to them. Hence why BMW went after the piggieback market. They caused enough of a headache to warrant action attempt to detect and remove piggiebacks and what look to be poor flash tunes. If the tuner market does not cause problems for BMW, BMW does not care. BMW is not this malicious company some are making them out to be hunting for any reason to void warranties. They have other things to worry about, such as making new products.

The TSB that Shiv posted looked for blatant mechanical issues or a piggieback pushing the ECU out of it's comfort range by tricking the ECU (maf plausibility) that caused codes. FASTA has been in the MSD80/MSD81 ECUs for years, certainly before that TSB was posted.

FASTA data can be read by anyone, it's not a magical super secret behind the back logging system. The routines are in the ECU allowing us to see what it is and where it goes.

When codes are thrown the ECU takes a snapshot of what was going on at the time to better help the tech diagnose/debug odd problems. My guess would be Shiv has seen these codes thrown and the data read out of what was going on during the activation of the code. Shiv can you give me any more info on the data you have seen, where you saw it, what was the scenario, etc? I'm sure I can piece this together for everyone.

Cheers,
Rob

[shifterboy45]

Rob,

thanks for making comments on this subject. i agree whole heartedly with your assessment of the unwarranted malicious intent that some people feel about manufacturers.

but if you have a chance to look at SIB 12 10 08 -- you will see the position taken is not directed solely at piggyback developers. If my memory serves me correctly it came on the heels of the surge of piggy and flash tuning for the N54 -- Dinan included, insomuch as if the car was tuned by Dinan, your PT warranty was essentially voided, so Dinan pick up the tab, and included this type of coverage into their overall price structure.

as a side note:

i am the one that asked the question -- how is the FASTA data handled.. and this turned into "the great debate" -- but from what you have explained it is and does doesnt seem familiar to me. the information format is not generally available on system or the diagnostic console, and what you seem to be saying is you either see trouble/diag codes stored or routed.. now the operation status is avail along with the codes but FASTA is not.

i applaud your efforts and really feel that tuning is a good thing for the auto industry, it makes better cars, more personalize to suit tastes -- but this whole warranty invisiblity deal is not fair to the customer in numerous respects.

if some one would just say tune at your own risk -- just like the disclaimer that i read on all my racing parts -- "this product is designed for off road use" these type of conversation would be limited to how great your technical advances are --

take care --

Originally Posted by Rob@Cobb

From our years dealing with Automotive companies we have seen they care little about what we do, sometimes they are very excited to see what we can do with their car, except in the case when there are problem caused to them. Hence why BMW went after the piggieback market. They caused enough of a headache to warrant action attempt to detect and remove piggiebacks and what look to be poor flash tunes. If the tuner market does not cause problems for BMW, BMW does not care. BMW is not this malicious company some are making them out to be hunting for any reason to void warranties. They have other things to worry about, such as making new products.

The TSB that Shiv posted looked for blatant mechanical issues or a piggieback pushing the ECU out of it's comfort range by tricking the ECU (maf plausibility) that caused codes. FASTA has been in the MSD80/MSD81 ECUs for years, certainly before that TSB was posted.

FASTA data can be read by anyone, it's not a magical super secret behind the back logging system. The routines are in the ECU allowing us to see what it is and where it goes.

When codes are thrown the ECU takes a snapshot of what was going on at the time to better help the tech diagnose/debug odd problems. My guess would be Shiv has seen these codes thrown and the data read out of what was going on during the activation of the code. Shiv can you give me any more info on the data you have seen, where you saw it, what was the scenario, etc? I'm sure I can piece this together for everyone.

Cheers,
Rob

[old account 1]

Originally Posted by Glowin

Just curious if anyone knows (or if Cobb can share, if it's not a trade secret ), since we heard from GIAC over and over again that the car can't be reliably flashed with a handheld unit if no external stable power supply is present, like at their dealers, hence the way they do it, and it's not because they have concerns about misuse of their software if they have handheld flashers.

Although I wondered about that since in Europe, Evolve has been able to flash the 335 gasoline models no problem (though for some reason, they've not been able to do so on our cars yet).

Our production software flashes considerably more than just the map area. When we add in our encryption and switching code it significantly increases the time taken to flash the software into the car.

Our raw performance development files take between 5-10 minutes to flash in-house depending on whether the DME is an MSD80 or MSD81. With the time we have invested in our performance calibrations for this market, we do everything we can to protect this data from prying eyes who might want to get a file to sell without actually doing the work. Keeping our software secure gives us reasoning to keep supporting the product as we wouldn't want to update our software if it were just going to be ripped off and sold at a fraction of the price due to little to no development costs.

[twinship]

Originally Posted by Austin@GIAC

Our production software flashes considerably more than just the map area. When we add in our encryption and switching code it significantly increases the time taken to flash the software into the car.

Our raw performance development files take between 5-10 minutes to flash in-house depending on whether the DME is an MSD80 or MSD81. With the time we have invested in our performance calibrations for this market, we do everything we can to protect this data from prying eyes who might want to get a file to sell without actually doing the work. Keeping our software secure gives us reasoning to keep supporting the product as we wouldn't want to update our software if it were just going to be ripped off and sold at a fraction of the price due to little to no development costs.

Glad to see GIAC weighing in on this... thx Austin.

Can we conclude that GIAC won't be offering an AccessPort-type product?

I was seriously considering the GIAC tune when Cobb came on the scene, and now I'll most likely go with Cobb due to the ease of flashing/unflashing. OTOH if GIAC will be offering comparable convenience in the near future, I'd be inclined to wait for that...

Suspect there alot of others in my situation.

[boostm3]

>>If the tuner market does not cause problems for BMW, BMW does not care. BMW is not this malicious company some are making them out to be hunting for any reason to void warranties. They have other things to worry about, such as making new products.<<

I think this begs the question, 'Is BMW expected to know which precise version of which precise tune by which precise company' MIGHT have impacted a bmw warrantied part? I think thats too much to expect from them.. As you say, they are way too busy to keep up with ever version and sub version, etc, that tuning companies come out with... Its more efficient, seems to me, for them to simply take the attitude, 'alterations of any signal to or from the ecu, or any changes to the ecu itself automatically void any engine component controlled by that ecu'.


>>"WARRANTY INFORMATION: Any repair or diagnostic cost incurred by a component and/or system failure as a result of an N54 aftermarket engine tuning kit installation is not covered by the terms of the BMW New Vehicle Limited Warranty."<<

This from the SB shiv posted on page 8. Again, i bring up the point that its certainly not always easy, and MOST certainly not at the dealer level, for them to ascertain whether or not a particular damaged component was damaged by an aftermarket tune... In order for them to really claim this, wouldnt they have to actually id which line of code, or in more general tunes, what it was about a particular tune that was responsible for the failure of the part in question? Is it enough for BMW to claim, 'we found evidence of aftermarket tune on your car; hence, your HPFP failure was likely caused by that tune...' This doesnt seem that far fetched an argument for them to make.. Except for the fact that there's more than ample proof that HPFPs fail on far too many Non altered bmws for this claim to hold water.. And still, they could claim, 'yes, others have failed for various reason, but our position is that YOURS failed because of your aftermarket tune'... The rest of this argument goes as written in my prior paragraph.

[gboop]

A while back I did some digging outside the confines of the e90post box. I wanted to share this oldie, but a goodie from bimmerforums (This may be the snapshots that Shiv is talking about):

Dealer can check...

Hey, just thought I would chime in with my experience. I ended up selling my proceed while back. The dealer verified that I had been using the tune. I did not have it installed at the time. The service guy said that the local BMW specialist checked snapshots from my ECU memory and it revealed timing adjustments and boost spikes. This memory cannot be erased via any tool we can get our hands on. I told him he was full of shit and he offered to show me print outs. Of course I dropped it and simply never put the proceed back in. If your car runs into problems they will deny you like they did me. You cannot hide any tune. If they want to check, they can and will if it comes down to fixing catastrophic damage.

I am returning the 335 in 2 months and already made arrangements for a 135 and will have them tune with dinan prior to driving out of the dealer. yes it's more money but they warranty it and I can sleep at night.

I think the dealer sucks so I am not going back to them anyhow.

Yes but what about boost spikes and timing. These are recorded by the so called black box part of the ECU. It's not just throwing codes.

So, the Procede leaves a trace voiding warranty and the JB3 does not? Don't they both ultimately raise factory boost pressure and adjust factory timing?

I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I am trying to get to the bottom of this because it seems to be a very gray area. I would love to get a faster tune if it truly couldn't be detected.

As far as not believing the service rep., we're in agreement. The person that diagnose my car however was a BMW district service guy that comes once a week and did some strict testing. These guys are not your average dumbass. They found everything.

I had brought the car in with warped rotors and they got bent out of shape because they had yet to get a 335i with warped rotors. So, they wanted to keep my car for the district BMW guy to inspect. They found the following:

1. According to the memory of the car, they knew I had been on a race track. They said they saw RPM and acceleration that were erratic. Along with timing advancement and boost spikes. (I went to Sebring)

2. They said I had put Water Wetter in the coolant. (I had put 1 bottle)

3. They found that I had replaced the brake fluid with a different brand. (i had replaced with another brand but same color)

4. They said I had used a non factory brake pad on the rotors and damaged them. Also, the rotors had access heat discoloration and micro heat cracks. (I had an aftermarket pad)

I had never mentioned anything to them prior.

I understand that they could be bluffing but it was pretty convincing being that they proved everything they stated.

I really don't know how they knew this stuff. The water wetter was what really shocked me. I told my mechanic to use fluid that was similar in color. When I took a quick glance, it looked the same. I suspect the dealer does a more thorough check than just a quick glance.

I am not trying to slam the JB3. I made a general statement that all boost enhancements may be logged as boost spikes and timing adjustments. Your right though, I don't know how the JB3 works, I've only had experience with the Procede.

They did threaten me that they would void the warranty if I didn't put the factory fluids back into the car at the same time they told me about the memory boost spikes.

Just a side note. My dyno guy where I take my turbo Miata said that he knows the system. He said the way to get around the memory storage is to hook up a battery charger to the battery for 36 hours. He said that the ecu records battery charging and when they tap in to see the memory they will find battery being charged. Can anyone confirm this?

Do ECU's log? If you go in with a scanning tools and delete the codes, does the ECU log that as an entry. I imagine if they created a backend that actually takes snap shots of a system that they would have some type of logging. In modern day devices almost everything logs.

In the case of the JB3, the ECU doesn't see anything out of the ordinary. If however the JB3 causes a code and you have to delete and if the above is true wouldn't it be visible in logs?

Just a thought.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1309199

[bulldog_yyc]

^ old news. Sounds like the guy what he deserved after trying to warranty warped rotors because of his after market brake pads. Pay to play.

[boom]

Lol. I cleared HUNDREDS of codes with my BT tool and never had any warranty issue at all. 30ff, boost deactivation, tuner detection, high boost, throttle body, cats, etc. I had wastegates done and two hpfps plus lots of maintenance bc of the BT CBS capabilities. Never had one problem even though I was changing fuel, timing, and boost - sometimes to 17psi.

If it's a typical issue and no codes are present, I think there will be no problem. You trash your motor, they're gonna get ya.

[boostm3]

Originally Posted by boom

Lol. I cleared HUNDREDS of codes with my BT tool and never had any warranty issue at all. 30ff, boost deactivation, tuner detection, high boost, throttle body, cats, etc. I had wastegates done and two hpfps plus lots of maintenance bc of the BT CBS capabilities. Never had one problem even though I was changing fuel, timing, and boost - sometimes to 17psi.

If it's a typical issue and no codes are present, I think there will be no problem. You trash your motor, they're gonna get ya.

Bav Tech scantool ... ok.. but whats 'CBS'? CAN Bus?

[bulldog_yyc]

Originally Posted by boostm3

Bav Tech scantool ... ok.. but whats 'CBS'? CAN Bus?

condition based service

basically when the computer signals you need oil/brakes/whatever changed

[boostm3]

Originally Posted by turkish335

condition based service

basically when the computer signals you need oil/brakes/whatever changed

"BT Condition Based Service capabilities" ??

Not sure this is what poster BOOM had in mind when he wrote, 'I had wastegates done and two hpfps plus lots of maintenance bc of the BT CBS capabilities.' Does this make any sense?

[boom]

CBS is condition based service and you change all of the values with the BT tool. You can set the miles until service required to any number you want and I would set mine very close to zero and get oil changed, brakes flushed, etc.

[boostm3]

Originally Posted by boom

CBS is condition based service and you change all of the values with the BT tool. You can set the miles until service required to any number you want and I would set mine very close to zero and get oil changed, brakes flushed, etc.

Thanks for the info. In the olden days, they used to have cbs based on x miles driven OR x months in service. I dont put many miles on the car, and have to find out if the dealer will perform on a time basis instead. If after 4 yrs Ive only put 20k miles on the car, I dont think I should be screwed out of over have my covered services!

But back to tuning. Im considering both the JB series as well as the Cobb flash. I may wait til JB4 is available for my N55 135i, but in the case I do go with a piggyback, is the Bav Technic tool the best way to erase the codes? I see where Burger sells their Can tool which allows you to reset codes from the driver seat using the dash gauges/lights to spit out hex digits to view the codes, but I believe thats only available with the JB4?.. The BT tool seems like it would produce an easier display to read, connecting the tool directly, Id imagine, from the obdII port to a laptop where the mgmt software has been installed. Cobb gives you the ability to erase the codes right from the Accessport hand held device. Neither the JB4 nor the Cobb Accessport are N55 ready though