[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by roofer

Indeed, i expected the brakes to fade......but they never. An M6 was easily outbraked, along with more exotic machinery.
The discs went a nice shade of blue, but i always had a good pedal. For everyday use they are fine. BBK's can turn into a pissing contest, and do look nice, but the standard brakes are fine, as are oem pads. imho.

Same as me mate, i expected mine to be shockingly shit. Mine were superb. ASK JAY

[E92Fan]

Right then boys/girls... OEM BMW brakes on a 335i/d vs BMW Performance Kit..


EDIT - Just in case, it's worth pointing out that the 335i and 335d share the same brake setup as standard




Well firstly, BMW don't actually list the BBK as being compatible with the 335i/d - it is only listed up to the 330i. Why is this? Well mainly because technically installing the BBK requires a slight alteration to the DSC programming to stop it from introducing the ABS system too early in a hard stop. There is also supposedly a discrepancy in brake bias between the front BBK kit and the proposed rear BBK kit, which according to BMW will definitely require adjustment to the DSC programming. Given the rear BBK is completely redundant for the 335i/d because the standard disc size at the rear and piston design is more than good enough (just requiring a pad change to be perfect), this brake bias discrepancy is just a non-issue. So we're left with a front BBK which BMW won't officially sanction for the 335i/d, because their on-site technicians can't 'reprogram' the DSC.

Which is.... BOLLOX...!! My set was fitted by BMW UK themselves... duh

You see the reality is that there is no problem whatsoever installing the BBK kit as listed by BMW (part number 34110444738), on the 335i or 335d. Firstly, the parts bolt straight on, no messing about. The Brembo calipers use the standard OEM brake lines, so that's not an issue either. Pads come with the kit, as do drilled & grooved discs, and the whole lot takes just over an hour to install.

What's the result? Well, I had the brakes installed just before the last trip to the 'Ring. Bedded the brakes in on the way down to the Eurotunnel, got to the other side, then practiced 'optimised driving' all the way to Prague. Top end of the speedo in Germany, hard on the brakes because a truck pulls out, and the car slows hard by over 80mph in almost a few heartbeats... Not once did the car feel as though the brake bias was too front-forward - the rear never once got twitchy (and that's the standard 335i rear). Not once did the ABS kick in. No brake fade, solid pedal, constant progression, and I repeated a fair few high-speed braking scenarios as people (normally Belgians alas ) pulled out in front of me without looking

Around the 'Ring, the Brembo pads that came with the BBK stood up to some quite serious punishment, doing lap after lap without much noticeable degradation. My brother put a laser temp to the discs & pads after three hard laps, and they registered just over 220 degrees centigrade. The rears by comparison were only 65 degrees centigrade. So well within the temperature range of the Brembo pads. We did perhaps ten or twelve laps, some very hard, and suffered no ill effects. And no intrusion by the ABS or DSC either.

However, I did have the brake fluid changed to Dot 5.1 race fluid, which would have had some bearing on the pedal feel.


Coming back to performance on the road, the Performance BBK is actually pretty good. The initial bite is softer than the OEM brakes, but the progression and feel is better, as is the fade resistance. However, I actually think the OEM brakes are pretty good for the road anyway, regardless of it being a single-piston caliper. I have an issue with high temperature fade of the OEM pads, but that can be cured by changing to Pagid 421 or 422 road pads.

The benefit to me of the BBK is the braking control when going around a track - there's simply a lot more feel and confidence in hard braking. Of course, it also looks pretty good too

Bottom line - the BMW Performance kit is great value at £725 inc VAT for the parts, total. The calipers are made by Brembo, as the discs and pads, which at least makes for a solid bottom line in manufacturing standard. What I would say though is this - the BMW BBK as it comes is not as good as a £2000 set of AP Racing brakes, nowhere near it in fact. The Brembo calipers just aren't as good, aren't as even at distributing the braking force across the surface of the pad due to the design of the differential pistons, and the pads themselves aren't really the greatest.

What they are is damn good value, and a decent enough upgrade if you want the extra feel and fade resistance. To this, I would add a few caveats - firstly, you must change the standard rubbish brake fluid to at least a Super Dot 4.1 (like Castrol Super Response) or a Dot 5.1 race fluid. Secondly, invest in a set of braided Goodridge brake hoses, which will prevent hose flex and firm up the pedal. Thirdly, get a set of Pagid 422 road pads. After all that, the brakes will be fab (and I should know, as that's the exact setup I am now running )

One point to note - the Brembo caliper is not a standard Brembo pattern part. Therefore there aren't many brake pads available to fit off the shelf. I had to get Pagid to make up a set of pads specially, by choosing one which was oversized to the caliper and machining it down. No big deal, but worth noting in any case.

[dxb335d]

Great write up Tony.

So BMW will need to program the DSC, although not many have the capability of doing so you say?

Did you car go light before the install when braking from high speed. I have found my car and a few other members cars do go light and twitchy at the back under hard braking from high speed.

[Spin]

Superb brakes review and very useful, also at under £1,000 for thw whole set up fitted, great value plus you get those lovely yellow calipers, definetly worth consideration IMO.

thanks again

Spin

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

Great write up Tony.

So BMW will need to program the DSC, although not many have the capability of doing so you say?

Did you car go light before the install when braking from high speed. I have found my car and a few other members cars do go light and twitchy at the back under hard braking from high speed.

Theoretically, BMW need to reprogram the DSC. In practice, they don't. My car hasn't been reprogrammed at all, and the braking bias is absolutely perfect. Granted, I have changed the stock rear pads to Pagid 422 as well, but done nothing more to the rears.

My car did used to squirm around a little under really hard braking before I had the kit done, but after installing the kit and the rear pads, the braking is completely smooth and there's none of this rear-end wobbling under full load.

[Spin]

Originally Posted by E92Fan

Theoretically, BMW need to reprogram the DSC. In practice, they don't. My car hasn't been reprogrammed at all, and the braking bias is absolutely perfect. Granted, I have changed the stock rear pads to Pagid 422 as well, but done nothing more to the rears.

My car did used to squirm around a little under really hard braking before I had the kit done, but after installing the kit and the rear pads, the braking is completely smooth and there's none of this rear-end wobbling under full load.

This rear end wobbling is what I have been experiencing, I'm now even more convinced I should get this done, you quoted £750 from BMW for the parts did you alsoget them to fit the kit ?

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by Spin

This rear end wobbling is what I have been experiencing, I'm now even more convinced I should get this done, you quoted £750 from BMW for the parts did you alsoget them to fit the kit ?

To cure the rear end wobbling, all you need to do is get a set of Pagid 421 or 422 brake pads, which are available for the standard rear 335i/d brakes. This cures the wobbling, as there's more rear brake friction and hence the balance becomes more neutral.

If you want the BBK, then you have to convince your local parts dept to order it in for you, as technically it's not available for the 335i/d remember!! Give them the part number I quoted in my post above, tell them you know it fits straight on, and it should only be £725 inc VAT. Then you have two choices - convince your friendly BMW tech to fit it for you (after hours of the workshop and bung him £75 quid or so) or pay full BMW labour rates and convince them to fit it for you above board. I had mine fitted by BMW themselves, but that was only because of an arrangement I have with them.

The other thing you should do, is contact Goodridge UK and order a set of braided brake hoses front and rear for your car. Goodridge have the lines available now as I gave them an original OEM set to make copies from. And buy some Dot 5.1 fluid, or the Castrol Super Response Dot 4.1 fluid, from Demon Tweeks (you will need 3 litres).

Take the hoses and fluid to whoever is installing your brakes, and instruct them to use the new parts.

£1000 and job done!!

[Spin]

Have you got any pics of the BBK fitted ?

[dxb335d]

Yeah id love to see pics too.


Also how much larger in diameter are the BBK brake disc's?


Tony how does the changing of rear pads stop twitching? Surely thats inherrent in the chassis which pitches heavily under hard braking from high speed.

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by Spin

Have you got any pics of the BBK fitted ?

Will post up later...

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

Yeah id love to see pics too.


Also how much larger in diameter are the BBK brake disc's?


Tony how does the changing of rear pads stop twitching? Surely thats inherrent in the chassis which pitches heavily under hard braking from high speed.

The diameter of the BBK discs are no larger than stock - in fact, they're a few mm smaller. However, the area of pad contact is much greater, so braking is more efficient.

Replacing the crap rear pads gives better rear braking, and brings the brake bias a little towards the rear. Therefore, the car will suffer less brake-force-induced pitching forwards. It's a small difference, but noticeable.

[Spin]

Originally Posted by E92Fan

The diameter of the BBK discs are no larger than stock - in fact, they're a few mm smaller. However, the area of pad contact is much greater, so braking is more efficient.

Replacing the crap rear pads gives better rear braking, and brings the brake bias a little towards the rear. Therefore, the car will suffer less brake-force-induced pitching forwards. It's a small difference, but noticeable.

Do you think its worthwhile upgrading hoses,fluid and pads in the first instance or would this be false economy in your opinion ?

I have emailed Goodridge but they have replied that currently none stocked, do you have a contact name please ?

Dont forget the pics, thanks

[booforty]

What are your views on the M3 brakes Tony? They feel very good under normal and hard braking but its a shame that BMW don't fit nice calipers like on AMG's

[Spin]

This is the email response from Goodridge
Hi Martin,

Thank you for your response.

I have checked our system to see if we have a specified but unfortunately to no avail, so we must have done the hoses as a one off assembly.

As previous we should be able to make you a set of hoses we will either require the specification from yourself or a set of OE hoses to replicate.

Please let me know if you wish to proceed.

Many Thanks,

Martin
_______________________________________________
Martin Taylor
Automotive Sales
Goodridge UK LTD
Main. +44 (0)1392 369090 | Fax. +44 (0)1392 441780 | www.goodridge.net

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by Spin

This is the email response from Goodridge
Hi Martin,

Thank you for your response.

I have checked our system to see if we have a specified but unfortunately to no avail, so we must have done the hoses as a one off assembly.

As previous we should be able to make you a set of hoses we will either require the specification from yourself or a set of OE hoses to replicate.

Please let me know if you wish to proceed.

Many Thanks,

Martin
_______________________________________________
Martin Taylor
Automotive Sales
Goodridge UK LTD
Main. +44 (0)1392 369090 | Fax. +44 (0)1392 441780 | www.goodridge.net

Hmmm.... I'll give him a call now to find out what they did with my OE hoses!!!

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by Spin

Do you think its worthwhile upgrading hoses,fluid and pads in the first instance or would this be false economy in your opinion ?

I have emailed Goodridge but they have replied that currently none stocked, do you have a contact name please ?

Dont forget the pics, thanks

What is it you want to achieve by upgrading your brakes?

If it's to minimise the light rear-end feel under hard braking, then I suggest the first port of call would be to replace the rear brake pads with Pagid 421 road pads.

If you want better feel on the brake pedal, then I suggest doing the hoses and fluid, which will give zero hose flex, and greater viscosity in the fluid. This improvement is quite marked (and I would say a necessity if you were to get a BBK in any case)

If you want better brake bite, less fade, and generally more confidence, then invest in a set of front Pagid 421 pads too. They are now available for the standard 335i/d front calipers.



If you want to track your car a lot, generally do a lot of high-speed autobahn driving overseas where you might have the tendency to do repeated high-speed braking, and thirdly if you want it to look cool, then get the BBK. But bear in mind that you will still have to do all the above (apart from the front pads, initially, as it comes with Brembo pads)...

The advantage of a BBK is not necessarily the increased stopping power, of which sometimes there isn't any increase, but the increase in repeatability, heat dissipation, a decrease in heat-related pad fade, a reduction in unsprung weight, and improvement in progression and confidence. Personally, i don't think a BBK is required if you're only doing road driving in the UK, and just want improved braking. Go the pads/hoses/fluid route and you'll be fine. If you're going to track your car a fair bit, then a BBK would be worthwhile.

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by booforty

What are your views on the M3 brakes Tony? They feel very good under normal and hard braking but its a shame that BMW don't fit nice calipers like on AMG's

Honestly Boof? I think the brakes should have better bite and progression on the M3 - it's good as it is, but I think it could be better. And certainly if you do a lot of track work, the standard pads do show considerable fade (as would any standard road pad, admittedly). The M3 I drove last had a fairly mushy pedal, I think because the brake fluid had been boiled in a previous track session, and it didn't give me any confidence in braking. The solution however is very simple. Again, braided hoses, upgraded fluid, and Pagid pads all round. You'll notice a big difference

[Spin]

Common sense tells me that the pagid pads all round plus upgraded fluid and hoses would be sufficient for my use, but hey those BBK do look awesome in the accessories mag, now what to tell the Mrs ?!?

Thanks again for all the advise and let me know how you get on with goodridge.

Spin

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by Spin

Common sense tells me that the pagid pads all round plus upgraded fluid and hoses would be sufficient for my use, but hey those BBK do look awesome in the accessories mag, now what to tell the Mrs ?!?

Thanks again for all the advise and let me know how you get on with goodridge.

Spin

Well, if you get the BBK, the Mrs will see you've spent money. If you just get pads etc, then she won't see it, and you might get away with it!!!

And yes, I think you'll be more than impressed with pads, hoses, and fluid.

[330cdsport]

Originally Posted by E92Fan

Well, if you get the BBK, the Mrs will see you've spent money. If you just get pads etc, then she won't see it, and you might get away with it!!!

And yes, I think you'll be more than impressed with pads, hoses, and fluid.

Hi E92Fan, Can you tell me where you can get the Pagid pads (front and rear) for a 335d as I may install these myself when the stock ones wear out.
I did a bit of a search on the net but got lost and confused.
Thanks.

[Ant397]

First off, Cheers for the info Tony, it appears you have a far more realistic and willing to make things happen BMW Technician than us!

Anyway, from your information, we ordered the BWM BBK and test fitted it on Wednesday this week and I can confirm that this kit will fit the whole of the E90 range except the M3.

We have managed to strike a cracking deal on the BMW Performance BBK and are currently offering it through Speed Religion at £693.69 or at £659 to Alliance members (only £25 per year for a further 5% discount on all prices) and only £60 fitting:

http://shop.speedreligion.net/bmw-pe...ront-832-p.asp

We have 4 more of these kits arriving with us on Tuesday next week and have already booked 2 cars in to have them fitted, so if any body else is interested, they are now back on backorder with BMW so we can accommodate another 2 people immediately. And as usual, we will re-order these before we run out and hope to continuously have them available in stock for E90Post members.

We also have supply terms set up with Goodridge UK and Pagid to supply the better pads and braided hoses too.

If anybody does want the BBK kit or any other parts fitted, weekend and evening fittings can be arranged to suit you.

Here's some pics of the kit on our d3:








We also have started adding further BMW Performance items to the shop... its all coming together:

http://shop.speedreligion.net/bmw-pe...ucts-382-c.asp



ant.

[Hotcoupe]

You beat me to it Ant.

Your pics are far better than mine:



D meets D3



Thanks for the great Speedreligion experience

See you soon