[SteveC]

The problem with 'grip' is that its a variable. A 'constant' variable. And there's no way of knowing how much you've got other than by losing it (chassis and steering feedback)

What you are talking about is setting up your car for oversteer, in that the back end steps out relatively easily, while the front stays planted.

The problem with that relates to how the back end steps out and when. There's a world of difference between accelerating hard and unwinding some lock through a fast bend on a dry, empty road and having the back snap away from you on the exit of a roundabout on a dark winter night.

Set up your car for oversteer on fast, dry roads and you've essentially got a deathtrap on cold, wet, slick, bumpy streets.

Personally I'd rather have a car set up to perform well under the most adverse conditions than something where I'm constantly trying to balance power with available traction. The latter gets very wearing very quickly

[oscarguitar]

Originally Posted by SteveC

The problem with 'grip' is that its a variable. A 'constant' variable. And there's no way of knowing how much you've got other than by losing it (chassis and steering feedback)

What you are talking about is setting up your car for oversteer, in that the back end steps out relatively easily, while the front stays planted.

The problem with that relates to how the back end steps out and when. There's a world of difference between accelerating hard and unwinding some lock through a fast bend on a dry, empty road and having the back snap away from you on the exit of a roundabout on a dark winter night.

Set up your car for oversteer on fast, dry roads and you've essentially got a deathtrap on cold, wet, slick, bumpy streets.

Personally I'd rather have a car set up to perform well under the most adverse conditions than something where I'm constantly trying to balance power with available traction. The latter gets very wearing very quickly

Steve, excellent point about the steering feedback, that could be what is missing (or I'm interpreting it well enough). Totally agree about the car being set up to perform well under the most adverse conditions, and I suppose that that, to an extent, is what the DSC+ is there for. The default set up (if we ignore power oversteer) is gentle and correctable understeer, and I suppose that with very grippy rubber it takes quite a prod to overcome this. I wouldn't want a car that was so twitchy it was likely to catch you out but more a car that with a gentle controlled prod would (as I have found M3s do) step out a little.

My car (with 19") along with most of the wheel/tyre combinations has wider rears (255) than fronts (225) which could be compounding the issue (musn't call it a problem!) I'd be interested to find out if the non staggered 17s (225 front and rear) handle differently. I suspect that the balance could be that bit sweeter, but I'm not sure I could live with the looks!

I have seen in some road test reports (not for the 3 series) that similar models on smaller wheels and lesser rubber are more enjoyable to drive quickly. Clearly the ride will be different, probably more compliant and the ultimate grip is less but the balance is better which benefits the handling.

Has anybody out there tried a 3 series with the 17s and the same model with 18/19s? If you have let us know if there was a difference

[Hoops]

I think using smaller radius wheels/tyres is a very good idea if you are going to do a lot of track days/Ring trips etc as its well documented that running 18's on the E46 M3 as an example was always a better set up than on the 19's. My personal issue with this is that they look so damn ugly and always make the car look less aggressive and more puny etc - and i dont do enough track days to warrant it. I try and balance my cars with good aesthetics and handling - it would simply annoy me looking at my car parked up on 18's or god forbid 17's (yuck!!) just so that on the odd occasion im hammering it on a track somewhere ive got the better handling car. With my current E92 M3 the car is very controllable and offers more than sufficient grip in its default settings - and then when im feeling brave and want some real hooning fun - i turn everything OFF and all hell breaks loose!!!

[oscarguitar]

Originally Posted by bmwbailey

I think using smaller radius wheels/tyres is a very good idea if you are going to do a lot of track days/Ring trips etc as its well documented that running 18's on the E46 M3 as an example was always a better set up than on the 19's. My personal issue with this is that they look so damn ugly and always make the car look less aggressive and more puny etc - and i dont do enough track days to warrant it. I try and balance my cars with good aesthetics and handling - it would simply annoy me looking at my car parked up on 18's or god forbid 17's (yuck!!) just so that on the odd occasion im hammering it on a track somewhere ive got the better handling car. With my current E92 M3 the car is very controllable and offers more than sufficient grip in its default settings - and then when im feeling brave and want some real hooning fun - i turn everything OFF and all hell breaks loose!!!

Totally agree about the looks, and your M3 has got to be one of the best looking 3's on the planet, even after 18 months ownership I still turn round after parking up and admire the lines and especially the 230 19's contrasting with the black metallic paintwork. I have seen a number of 335s on 17s round here (rich retired folk who don't understand) and they lack that hunched lean look.

Your point about the smaller tyres and rubber for the track is starting to bear out my impression that a bit less grip and a bit more balance could result in a better drive, but the ownership proposition (pride of ownership (smug git?)) would be way down.

[Hoops]

Originally Posted by oscarguitar

especially the 230 19's

I had these on my 335i - best stock wheel option for this car in my opinion!!

[kend]

Originally Posted by oscarguitar

Has anybody out there tried a 3 series with the 17s and the same model with 18/19s? If you have let us know if there was a difference

I had my E92 on 17's with 225 tyres all round and changed to staggered fit 18" wheels with 225/255 tyres. The ride and handling was so much better on the 18" wheels, it was much more planted and less prone to skittish behaviour. I think that the suspension must have been optimised for 18".
When I changed from the E92 to the E93, the E93 had 19" staggered fit wheels and tyres. on the test drive I thought it was overtyred and did not like the ride so had the dealer fit the 18" wheels from the E92. For me 18" wheels gives the best mix of ride / handling.

[oscarguitar]

Originally Posted by kend

I had my E92 on 17's with 225 tyres all round and changed to staggered fit 18" wheels with 225/255 tyres. The ride and handling was so much better on the 18" wheels, it was much more planted and less prone to skittish behaviour. I think that the suspension must have been optimised for 18".
When I changed from the E92 to the E93, the E93 had 19" staggered fit wheels and tyres. on the test drive I thought it was overtyred and did not like the ride so had the dealer fit the 18" wheels from the E92. For me 18" wheels gives the best mix of ride / handling.

Thanks for sharing this experience, this backs up the comment that the e46 M3 was better on 18s but everyone bought the 19s because of the looks! Interesting that the 17s felt skittish, maybe because they are the same width back and front and the car needs some extra rubber at the back but with a bit of sidewall compliance to dampen things down a bit.

I reckon I would be happy with the 18s on my next one and might avoid the cost of the biggest wheel/tyre option. I'll just have to park up where it's dark so I can't spot the huge gaps under the wheel arches!!

Thanks.

[dxb335d]

Also the lack of an LSD makes an impact i think.

the 17's are 255 at the rear also not 225. (For the 335's)

[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by bmwbailey

I think using smaller radius wheels/tyres is a very good idea if you are going to do a lot of track days/Ring trips etc as its well documented that running 18's on the E46 M3 as an example was always a better set up than on the 19's. My personal issue with this is that they look so damn ugly and always make the car look less aggressive and more puny etc - and i dont do enough track days to warrant it. I try and balance my cars with good aesthetics and handling - it would simply annoy me looking at my car parked up on 18's or god forbid 17's (yuck!!) just so that on the odd occasion im hammering it on a track somewhere ive got the better handling car. With my current E92 M3 the car is very controllable and offers more than sufficient grip in its default settings - and then when im feeling brave and want some real hooning fun - i turn everything OFF and all hell breaks loose!!!

Regarding E46 M3, i think the car looks far better and more aGGRESSIVE lowered on the 18' over the 19's

E92, the 18" do look pretty wank.

[oscarguitar]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

Regarding E46 M3, i think the car looks far better and more aGGRESSIVE lowered on the 18' over the 19's

E92, the 18" do look pretty wank.

I'm sure you're right about the LSD, those with the Quaife really rate the mod. I didn't realise the 17s were staggered on the 335d but is does make sense taking into account how much grunt they have. Your opinion of the 17s/18s on the E92 sums it up nicley.

On a seperate O/T there was some posts on the USA site stating that the 335d could run a 14.3 quarter mile and someone asked if anyone had done it with a modded version. I gave them the link to your last 'pod' results, that should keep them quiet over the pond!

[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by oscarguitar

I'm sure you're right about the LSD, those with the Quaife really rate the mod. I didn't realise the 17s were staggered on the 335d but is does make sense taking into account how much grunt they have. Your opinion of the 17s/18s on the E92 sums it up nicley.

On a seperate O/T there was some posts on the USA site stating that the 335d could run a 14.3 quarter mile and someone asked if anyone had done it with a modded version. I gave them the link to your last 'pod' results, that should keep them quiet over the pond!

Mate Pm me the link to it pls mate, id like to have a look!

I ran a 13.9@101.5mph. No other 335d standard i know of has broke the 13's!

[oscarguitar]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

Mate Pm me the link to it pls mate, id like to have a look!

I ran a 13.9@101.5mph. No other 335d standard i know of has broke the 13's!

Looks like you found it!

[NFS]

Originally Posted by oscarguitar

Steve, excellent point about the steering feedback, that could be what is missing (or I'm interpreting it well enough). Totally agree about the car being set up to perform well under the most adverse conditions, and I suppose that that, to an extent, is what the DSC+ is there for. The default set up (if we ignore power oversteer) is gentle and correctable understeer, and I suppose that with very grippy rubber it takes quite a prod to overcome this. I wouldn't want a car that was so twitchy it was likely to catch you out but more a car that with a gentle controlled prod would (as I have found M3s do) step out a little.

My car (with 19") along with most of the wheel/tyre combinations has wider rears (255) than fronts (225) which could be compounding the issue (musn't call it a problem!) I'd be interested to find out if the non staggered 17s (225 front and rear) handle differently. I suspect that the balance could be that bit sweeter, but I'm not sure I could live with the looks!

I have seen in some road test reports (not for the 3 series) that similar models on smaller wheels and lesser rubber are more enjoyable to drive quickly. Clearly the ride will be different, probably more compliant and the ultimate grip is less but the balance is better which benefits the handling.

Has anybody out there tried a 3 series with the 17s and the same model with 18/19s? If you have let us know if there was a difference

I have 18 inch staggered wheels and the handling on my car is very neutral.

[oscarguitar]

Originally Posted by NFS

I have 18 inch staggered wheels and the handling on my car is very neutral.

Thanks, it sounds as if the 18s represent a really good compromise between ultimate grip (and I expect the difference would only be detectable on a track) and balance which is probably more important on a daily basis for driving enjoyment.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by oscarguitar

Thanks, it sounds as if the 18s represent a really good compromise between ultimate grip (and I expect the difference would only be detectable on a track) and balance which is probably more important on a daily basis for driving enjoyment.

I'm not sure that the contact patch would be much different though as the width of tyre seems to be the same?

[oscarguitar]

Originally Posted by NFS

I'm not sure that the contact patch would be much different though as the width of tyre seems to be the same?

I suspect that in sq cms the size of the contact patch doesn't change much no matter what wheel tyre combo you have. I remember reading somewhere that it is more to do with the weight of the car and the tyre pressures. What changes is the shape of the contact patch, with narrow(er) tyres having a long thin contact patch which breaks away progressively and wider tyres (and this may be true of lower profile tyres) having a short wide contact patch that lets go suddenly.

It may also be to do with sidewall flex giving more feel for what the tyre is doing and a bigger envelope of grip between starting to go and gone!