[ar design]

Originally Posted by dzenno

aren't all you guys running tunes that impact engine components..running turbos at 13-17 psi when they were designed for 8-9...but that's somehow ok..running catless when we know the car is designed with back pressure in mind..we all do this as we take it we'll pay to play, right?

LOL, you aren't seriously comparing running more boost to crank harmonics?

[dzenno]

Ok look um not trying to compare anything just a general comment on risks we ate all taking modifying our cars..

I'll try to get more info from NST and show them mr 5s diagram and see what they say. Then we'll be able to continue this discussion in more sensibly and factually...

Reason I'm doing this is because I bought the product already thinking i undersood the topic enough...if nst can't prove that a harmonic damping element doesnt exist on the oem crank pulley I will also be reluctant to install it...

I based my purchase decision solely on the following:

1) dynos provided showed considerable gains
2) nst claimed no harmonic damper is inside oem pulley by cutting right through it (will try and get a photo from them)
3) other members such as former boosted and enrita running them on their cars, some with over 3000 mi with zero issues
4) nst being a very reputable tuner for a long number of years

but, again I say, I will try to get them to show proof of cutting through the oem one..

Does anyone have an OEM crank pulley? From that diagram that mr 5 provided it seems this can easily be confirmed as the vibration damper is outside it seems..

[Ryan@Motorwerks]

NST never cut into an OEM pulley. Otherwise they would know it was fluid dampened. How do I know? We cut into one ourselves and saw this firsthand.

[dzenno]

Do you have some proof of this other than words? Currently we just have words from nst as well. If not then your comment is just as good as NSTs, sorry ..

If it's fluid based why is it replaceable?? Why does mr 5s diagram point to a replaceable vibration damper?

[Ryan@Motorwerks]

Originally Posted by dzenno

Do you have some proof of this other than words? Currently we just have words from nst as well. If not then your comment is just as good as NSTs, sorry ..

If it's fluid based why is it replaceable?? Why does mr 5s diagram point to a replaceable vibration damper?

Sorry, don't have any pictures as this was done a while back when we looked into this project.

Here is where I think the confusion lies: we were the first to say it was not dampened (which wasn't true, we made that up) and NST just ASSUMED that to be the case. That itself speaks volumes about the R&D that went into this.

Sure my comment is just as 'good' as NST's however:
1. I'm not trying to sell you something
2. It is labeled as 'vibration damper' for a reason

In terms of being replaceable, I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. The fluid and mass rings are inside the pulley itself, so that wouldn't make it non-replaceable. Could you clarify what you mean?

[hun77777]

i've asked one of my friend how used to have E36 M3 and told me he DID replaced pulleys but vibration damper was still there when he did. notice there's difference, below link provided is another one showing pulley, not damper. i would feel much safer to replace those pulley on M3 knowing there's vibration damper still in place but on our beloved N54 engine, pulley is vibration damper so i wouldn't mess with it...

E36 M3
http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E3...ration_damper/

E92 M3
http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E9...ration_damper/



notice on our N54 engine, it only has vibration damper, no pulley...
http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E9...ration_damper/

[cn555ic]

OP...you have to ultimately find the answers to your questions before you get this installed, although there has been many that already told you, but you want facts...The only way at this point is straight from NST themselves since they told you they have cut one open....THere are alot of people that I trust on this forum, and most of them have stated this mod is a bad idea...Its up to you to decide at this point...I think if your looking for more horse power, methanol injection would be your best bet at this point.

[dzenno]

hun77777 thanks for those diagrams, really helpful.

Ryan, looking at this diagram you're saying that you cut it and found there's liquid inside the vibration damper, correct? Would the presence of this liquid element not make this a harmonic balancer? Also if you look at mr 5s diagram you'll see that it mentions "replacing vibratin damper" and points to a part on the inside of the pulley as if it can be replaced. This is what I don't get because you're saying it's enclosed inside the pulley..

hun77777 diagram and the vibration damper indicated in the pic points right at the pulley itself, not an element that's part of it.

So now there are 2 diagrams, one with what seems to be a replaceable vibration damper element that's part of the pulley (mr 5) and another that has the pulley as the vibration damper (hun77777). We also have NST saying they cut through it and saw no "rubber" element inside (they didn't say there was no liquid and I didn't ask as I didn't know about this but the way they said this was in the context of this pulley isn't a harmonic balancer and doesn't need a 2nd element inside). We also have Ryan on the other side who says they also cut the pulley and saw liquid inside but like NST didn't back it up with a photo. On top of all this Former_boosted and enrita are running it. We know former won't mod in a risky way for sure and enrita already has 3000mi on this pulley.

Given all this and that I base my understanding on what I find on the forums from those in the know I really don't know what to think or how to conclude on this topic at this point as there seems to be no real conclusion. A lot of people are staying away until this is verified in the real world, high milage usage situatios, cool with me, would've probably done the same had I been this confused prior to ordering yesterday.

Question to the more knowledgable:

If the OEM pulley has no 2nd element inside (rubber or water) and a lighter version with OEM dimensions was available would you consider this a risky mod?

[hun77777]

Originally Posted by dzenno

hun77777 thanks for those diagrams, really helpful.

Ryan, looking at this diagram you're saying that you cut it and found there's liquid inside the vibration damper, correct? Would the presence of this liquid element not make this a harmonic balancer? Also if you look at mr 5s diagram you'll see that it mentions "replacing vibratin damper" and points to a part on the inside of the pulley as if it can be replaced. This is what I don't get because you're saying it's enclosed inside the pulley..

hun77777 diagram and the vibration damper indicated in the pic points right at the pulley itself, not an element that's part of it.

So now there are 2 diagrams, one with what seems to be a replaceable vibration damper element that's part of the pulley (mr 5) and another that has the pulley as the vibration damper (hun77777). We also have NST saying they cut through it and saw no "rubber" element inside (they didn't say there was no liquid and I didn't ask as I didn't know about this but the way they said this was in the context of this pulley isn't a harmonic balancer and doesn't need a 2nd element inside). We also have Ryan on the other side who says they also cut the pulley and saw liquid inside but like NST didn't back it up with a photo. On top of all this Former_boosted and enrita are running it. We know former won't mod in a risky way for sure and enrita already has 3000mi on this pulley.

Given all this and that I base my understanding on what I find on the forums from those in the know I really don't know what to think or how to conclude on this topic at this point as there seems to be no real conclusion. A lot of people are staying away until this is verified in the real world, high milage usage situatios, cool with me, would've probably done the same had I been this confused prior to ordering yesterday.

Question to the more knowledgable:

If the OEM pulley has no 2nd element inside (rubber or water) and a lighter version with OEM dimensions was available would you consider this a risky mod?

i don't think there is rubber on the outter surface of the "VIBRATION DAMPER" on N54 engine and to me (2) on Mr.5's post is pointing out the "VIBRATION DAMPER" itself, not the rubber insert on the damper. i have no way of verifying this myself but perhaps anybody who installed NST pulley and have stock one laying around could verify this.

as far as other members using it, i really don't care what they use and how they think as it is their car. former boosted does extensive research, data collecting and reviews quite thoroughly but just because he put it on, it doesn't makes it safe. some of mod, like NO2 and such, he may feel safe about it, i don't....

as for your last comments, if the one from NST is direct replacement VIBRATION DAMPER, i'd much rather be using one but it is just a PULLEY and the one we need on our car is VIBRATION DAMPER, so no i will not use it, especially for merely over 10whp....

[OpenFlash]

I'd steer clear from this as well.

[dzenno]

Originally Posted by hun77777

i don't think there is rubber on the outter surface of the "VIBRATION DAMPER" on N54 engine and to me (2) on Mr.5's post is pointing out the "VIBRATION DAMPER" itself, not the rubber insert on the damper. i have no way of verifying this myself but perhaps anybody who installed NST pulley and have stock one laying around could verify this.

as far as other members using it, i really don't care what they use and how they think as it is their car. former boosted does extensive research, data collecting and reviews quite thoroughly but just because he put it on, it doesn't makes it safe. some of mod, like NO2 and such, he may feel safe about it, i don't....

as for your last comments, if the one from NST is direct replacement VIBRATION DAMPER, i'd much rather be using one but it is just a PULLEY and the one we need on our car is VIBRATION DAMPER, so no i will not use it, especially for merely over 10whp....

Understand that you're against this and I'm perfectly fine with that.

I'd like to know why this is called a vibration damper IF it turns out it doesn't have a 2nd element inside to provide this. To me at this point where we don't have proof of what's inside the OEM pulley, the VIBRATION DAMPER could just be because of its sheer weight and nothing else. NST did say that using their pulley WOULD cause a slight, but unnoticable, increase in vibration due to the pulley being lighter which to me totally makes sense because it weighs less, but that's all.

[hun77777]

Originally Posted by dzenno

Understand that you're against this and I'm perfectly fine with that.

I'd like to know why this is called a vibration damper IF it turns out it doesn't have a 2nd element inside to provide this. To me at this point where we don't have proof of what's inside the OEM pulley, the VIBRATION DAMPER could just be because of its sheer weight and nothing else. NST did say that using their pulley WOULD cause a slight, but unnoticable, increase in vibration due to the pulley being lighter which to me totally makes sense because it weighs less, but that's all.

as i said earlier, i am hoping in a way that i'm wrong so that i can put this on if indeed it is ok to run it

with that being said, i do think that there must be something done to it to be labeled as VIBRATION DAMPER not PULLEY. as you saw on my previous links, BMW does know the difference and distinguish the two clearly. It seems like whenever they put PULLEY, there always is seperate VIBRATION DAMPER, exception of N54 platform. so i don't think BMW is simply just relying on pulley's weight to be called VIBRATION DAMPER...

[dzenno]

So really the only way to know is to get a photo of one cut in half or any better ideas?

Tomorrow I'll try to AIM with NST and see if they have a photo...putting this on standby for now..

[dzenno]

Small update..former_boosted is not running this pulley as I'd claimed earlier...he just confirmed this in another thread and reason was he wasn't comfortable removing the vibration damper

I'll still try to talk to nst to see what they say but this looks like a big no at this point ... Too bad I paid for it already

[enrita]

There is no rubber whatsoever on the outside of the OEM pulley or on the crank . The dampening is supposed to be "Inside" the pulley. The dampening is mostly to lower engine noise and not for balancing.

[ianthegreat]

For the record, if it even matters. Motorwerks and NST are both Houston based companies. Which, I feel, is one reason the last debate on this got so heated.

[hun77777]

Originally Posted by ianthegreat

For the record, if it even matters. Motorwerks and NST are both Houston based companies. Which, I feel, is one reason the last debate on this got so heated.

lol

any words on NST?

[dzenno]

I talked to the president at NST today and first and foremost, two thumbs up for a very helpful individual who goes the extra mile when it comes to communicating to his customers and answering questions, of which I had naturally many...

Back on topic, in terms of NST pulley vs OEM, he's told me, and he's also written on N54Tech, that the OEM pulley doesn't have a "rubber" damper inside as they DID cut through it AND he also said that the OEM pulley DOES have liquid inside.

Here is a link to the n54tech post so I don't copy/paste (see their post below mine that references e90post):

http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showth...d=1#post100250

He's also mentioned that they have a decade of experience in PULLEY DESIGN and that EACH AND EVERY CAR THEY TUNED had a rubber element to the pulley that was removed and replaced with a 100% aluminum pulley and there have never been any reports of engine damage due to usage of their pulley, EVER!

Now, I know that this isn't relevant to N54, at least not YET as we didn't have enough members on this or the other forum running this pulley for a considerable amount of time and racing with them installed BUT for whatever its worth it does serve as a testament to their quality and R&D.

The ONLY case engine damage COULD happen (and note this is a remote possibility) is in really high HP applications where engines are pushed way above their stock limits, exposed to MUCH higher RPMs (over 10,000 RPM) for longer periods of time, which in our case is NEVER! Even in those situations, NST pulleys were NEVER reported to have been the cause of any engine damage, if anything all engines where NST was run responded favourably (you can treat this as an NST "statement" but feel free to go through the links they provided).

Personally, I just don't have it in me "AT THIS TIME" to put this pulley on MY car and be one of the early N54-NST crankshaft pulley real world guinea pigs. I really do believe that NST isn't here to screw with our cars and they state this openly as well, or that they're here to throw out a product with a $200 price tag that could potentially ruin their decade long solid reputation.

NST, being a company that strongly believes in its products' quality have also provided me with an option to FULLY REFUND my NST pulley purchase which I will do this time around.

I am not by any means discounting this very pulley as a mod down the road given proven track/daily driver use...

I'll try to go through the links they provided and read about other engines their pulleys are installed on to educate myself better on the topic before going back to purchasing it as I'd like to understand how this would be a bad mod on N54 given all other engines having similar pulleys/vibration damper setups...

[yermo]

http://www.dinancars.com/bmw/technia...armonic-damper

I came across this on the Dinan website and thought that it was relevant per the discussion. You might be able to give them a call and ask for their input.

[dzenno]

Originally Posted by yermo

http://www.dinancars.com/bmw/technia...armonic-damper

I came across this on the Dinan website and thought that it was relevant per the discussion. You might be able to give them a call and ask for their input.

thanks, have seen that already a while ago but it doesn't pertain to this situation..this is neither an underdriven or overdriven pulley

[Mr. 5]

I think it's great that they are working with you, but I don't like the quote of "above 10,000 RPMs" and I'll explain why...

Every engine has a harmonics sweet spot where everything is working pefectly.
The same goes with the bad spot where everything is not working perfectly.
The bad spot is what I am talking about.

The problem that I have is that I don't know where the bad spot is.
This is why I wish for this company to do a torsional analysis throughout the RPM range.
Example is a very slow revving from 1k to 7k rpm while measuring the harmonics.

If the bad spot is at 2800 rpm then that's where I am when I'm on the freeway so that would be bad for the engine to keep it there for an extended period of time.

[dzenno]

EDIT to my original post:

If you read NST's post on n54tech you'll notice they indicate that the dangerous 2nd harmonic occurs at around 10,000 rpm on our engines:

"The engineering reasons are that most modern engines have a short, strong crank with, a relatively high natural frequency. The dangerous second harmonic that can cause damage occurs at an rpm that this sort of engine will never see, in the area near 10,000 rpm. Even the stock damper is not tuned for attenuation at this sort of rpm so the argument is somewhat of a moot point."

Did you read their post?

Torsional analysis would be a good read, post when you can..