[pondo]

Originally Posted by TotalPower

i hate to be the negative guy in all these posts, but clearly none of you guys look at the msds before you buy shit.

Optilube is Naphta, benze, and other known carcinogens. Not only will it raise your cylinder temps, scorch your pistons, but it's terrible to burn health wise.

Lol so wrong. Benzene burns when in excess of air completely to CO2 and water. Benzene is typically flared if made as a waste by product in industry all the time. Don't snort the bottle and you will be ok

[DnA Diesel]

Originally Posted by TotalPower

gasoline and diesel are different animals. You need a SYNTHETIC diesel fuel additive, not something petrolium based. If you had a dirty pool would you but a splash of clean water in it? or would you use chloriene...

Dont waste your time w/ Power service, lucas, or any of these off the shelf brands. my 2 Cents

Exactly! Perfect logic.

Just like when I have a rumbly stomach, I don't adjust what I eat...I drink chlorine and other synthetic stuff.

[DnA Diesel]

As an aside, how many people in general read (or know what one is) the MSDS sheet?

Here's Opti-Lube's MSDS sheet.

Here's Diesel's MSDS sheet.

Here's motor oil's MSDS sheet.

Here's laundry detergent's MDSD sheet. (Whatever you do, don't spill large quantities! "Personal Precautions: Safety glasses with side shields, a respirator with P100 HEPA cartridges and nitrile gloves should be worn when exposure to large quantities of the powder are possible.")

There's a lot of MDSD sheet out there!

[TotalPower]

Originally Posted by pondo

Lol so wrong. Benzene burns when in excess of air completely to CO2 and water. Benzene is typically flared if made as a waste by product in industry all the time. Don't snort the bottle and you will be ok

there is no excess air in a cylinder, unless you start changing your afr. Benzene & naphta are old schoool products people used to use to hotrod their engines then realized that they were only damaging components from heat, gums, and toxins.

I wouldn't come close to that shit it my life depended on it. But hey, your engine not mine

[TotalPower]

Originally Posted by DnA Diesel

As an aside, how many people in general read (or know what one is) the MSDS sheet?

There's a lot of MDSD sheet out there!

How many people read the ingredient label on the food they buy? There's a lot of fat people out there too!

(there's an msds for every chemical product)

[DnA Diesel]

Originally Posted by TotalPower

there is no excess air in a cylinder, unless you start changing your afr...

Indeed there is.

Not sure you understand how a diesel engine works compared to a gasoline engine. Diesels are not based on working around a stoichiometric AFR as you allude to above. They operate with a continuous excess of air to fuel, sometimes a modest excess, sometimes a great excess. Power is controlled uniquely by the control of fuel injected. This (excess of air during combustion) is what characterizes diesels with their inherent greater thermodynamic efficiency than Otto-cycle spark ignition engines.


Regards
D.

[TotalPower]

Originally Posted by DnA Diesel

Indeed there is.

Not sure you understand how a diesel engine works compared to a gasoline engine. Diesels are not based on working around a stoichiometric AFR as you allude to above. They operate with a continuous excess of air to fuel, sometimes a modest excess, sometimes a great excess. Power is controlled uniquely by the control of fuel injected. This (excess of air during combustion) is what characterizes diesels with their inherent greater thermodynamic efficiency than Otto-cycle spark ignition engines.


Regards
D.

my apologies, you are right, they do operate w/ excess air. What they don't have sufficient is oxygen (which is one of the key reasons they operate w/ excess air).

The reason ADblue or these NOx absorbers or sprays are used is because there is excess AIR. Same reason you see smoke or particulate matter coming out the exhaust because there is incomplete combustion and you have soot being created and unburnt hydrocarbons being released out your exhaust (regardless of the increased efficiencies of diesel over spark ignition). Regardless of excess air, what you need in a fuel additive is oxygenation (like MTBE, except you don't want it to be carcinogenic...like naphta or other aromatics which are toxic).

A perfect fuel additive is:
oxygenating
detergent
biodegradable
non-carcinogenic
not petroleum based.

Products mentioned in this thread are:
not oxygenating
not biodegradable
carcinogenic
petroleum based.


Products like this one are the reason fuel additives cause such headaches to people who know about fuel and chemistry. if they worked the way they claim, more people would use them instead of the few people that try them and then must reconcile w/ themselves on the butt dyno as to whether or not it worked. If it's carcinogenic it's bad for you, if it's petroleum based then you're not putting anything into the fuel that wasn't there in the first place. if it's not oxygenating, CARB and EPA both have agreed and scientifically shown it should be.

like I said, your engine-not mine.

[DnA Diesel]

...technically 21% of all "excess air" is oxygen.

The SCR system for keeping NOx down is due to the extremely high localized temperatures from such efficient combustion, in particular from the 2nd/3rd-gen common-rail systems. 335d is running 1800 bar (26,000 psi)...that actually breaks long HC chains into smaller segments. The high temperatures bind the Nitrogen and Oxygen into NOx, hence why EGR is big on the newer CR diesels. SCR as an after treatment tries to remediate what EGR cannot handle.

That said, ULSD, particularly in the US has known reduced lubricity - in many cases as poor as 520µm scar wear...not very good for internals on parts pushing upwards of 26,000psi. For me, I don't run additives, since Canadian-spec diesel has notably better scar-wear rating, 460µm minimum. Less bio, additives like Opti-lube are the next best thing for helping keep the parts from the CR injection system from prematurely aging with the higher scarring US fuel. Are they (additives) nasty, in an uncombusted form yes. Post-combustion...probably no worse than everything else in the additives package. In the case of diesels, it has nothing to do with oxygenating the fuel to enhance combustion, it's all about the increased lubricity.

That said, precautions properly taken in accordance with the MSDS will minimize the risk of unwanted effects.

like I said, your engine-not mine.

You don't believe that there isn't any nasty stuff in the additive packages in the fuel your feeding you 335is, do you?


Regards
D.

[TotalPower]

High cylinder temps cause NOx, absolutely right, but if we were to have less air and simply more oxygen in our engine then we wouldn't have to worry about the production of NOX. 21% of all air is oxygen not just excess air basically meaning 4/5 of the volume inside inside your cylinder is something that you don't want in there. only 1/5th is useful. Proper mixture has more to do with whether or not it is homogenous or heterogeneous inside your cylinder. Since you are trying to mix a gas with a liquid not only is the mixture not homogenous, but the liquid spray (as mist like and thin as it may be) doesn't have perfect contact with oxygen that is required for combustion and the outside of the spray has more contact than the inside (which has little to no contact hence the particulate matter). The only way to get this mixture to be homogenous is to have liquid oxygen in your fuel prior to going into the cylinder.

I understand that removal of sulfur has "dried" out the fuel making it harder for engines to run properly, but the emission control devices require low sulfur in order to work properly. introducing sulfur back in by using a petroleum based product is shooting your self in the foot. Other things can be used that are not petroleum based that will increase the lubricity of diesel fuel to ensure that pump and injectors are running fine as they were before.

I believe that there is a lot oil companies could do to sell a superior product. they are not in the business of selling the best fuel, they are in the business of being in business. If they can use a marginal product instead of the best, they will if it will save them a fraction of a cent. Likewise, fuel additive companies spend their money on advertising and marketing instead of on R&D and creating a superior product. They use technology from the 60's and re,re,rebrand it and say it's something special when it's not.

[TotalPower]

mind you, the product you posted states the following:

WARNING
Harmful if inhaled, causes eye irritation, causes skin irritation, harmful if absorbed through skin...comtains components which may cause cancer, may cause chronic health effects.

Target organs: blood, central nervous system, eye, heart, kidney, liver, lung, respiratory system.

This material is considered hazardous.

Not only your engine, but your HEALTH AND your neighbors. Do you really think it's good to use this??!

[hotrod2448]

Originally Posted by TotalPower

mind you, the product you posted states the following:

WARNING
Harmful if inhaled, causes eye irritation, causes skin irritation, harmful if absorbed through skin...comtains components which may cause cancer, may cause chronic health effects.

Target organs: blood, central nervous system, eye, heart, kidney, liver, lung, respiratory system.

This material is considered hazardous.

Not only your engine, but your HEALTH AND your neighbors. Do you really think it's good to use this??!

Just about every fluid you put in your car would have a similar MSDS to this, along with a significant amount of household cleaners and lawn care products. Besides I don't think any of us are using this stuff as massage oil on ourselves or neighbors.

From the MSDS for gasoline:
FUMES MAY CAUSE EYE AND RESPIRATORY IRRITATION.
MAY BE HARMFUL OR FATAL IF SWALLOWED
MAY CAUSE LUNG DAMAGE
OVEREXPOSURE MAY CAUSE CNS DEPRESSION
BREATHING HIGH CONCENTRATIONS CAN CAUSE IRREGULAR HEARTBEATS WHICH MAY BE FATAL
DANGER - CONTAINS BENZENE - MAY CAUSE CANCER
CAN CAUSE LEUKEMIA AND OTHER BLOOD DISORDERS.
POTENTIAL REPRODUCTIVE HAZARD
SEE TOXICOLOGICAL INFORMATION SECTION FOR MORE INFORMATION
EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE LIQUID AND VAPOR
VAPOR MAY CAUSE FLASH FIRE OR EXPLOSION
MATERIAL MAY ACCUMULATE STATIC CHARGE

And Diesel:
VAPORS, FUMES, OR MISTS MAY CAUSE RESPIRATORY TRACT IRRITATION
MAY BE HARMFUL OR FATAL IF SWALLOWED
MAY CAUSE LUNG DAMAGE
OVEREXPOSURE MAY CAUSE CNS DEPRESSION
MAY CAUSE CANCER BASED ON ANIMAL DATA
SEE TOXICOLOGICAL INFORMATION SECTION FOR MORE INFORMATION
COMBUSTIBLE LIQUID AND VAPOR
VAPOR MAY CAUSE FLASH FIRE
MATERIAL MAY ACCUMULATE STATIC CHARGE

And the oh so dangerous Carnauba wax:
Contact with eyes may cause irritation.
Skin: May cause irritation. Repeated exposure may cause skin dryness or cracking. Repeated or
prolonged skin contact may cause allergic reactions with susceptible persons.
Inhalation: Inhalation of vapors in high concentration may cause irritation of respiratory system. May
cause central nervous system depression with nausea, headache, dizziness, vomiting, and
incoordination.

Looks like we're not driving anywhere or polishing the car either.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by TotalPower

mind you, the product you posted states the following:

WARNING
Harmful if inhaled, causes eye irritation, causes skin irritation, harmful if absorbed through skin...comtains components which may cause cancer, may cause chronic health effects.

Target organs: blood, central nervous system, eye, heart, kidney, liver, lung, respiratory system.

This material is considered hazardous.

Not only your engine, but your HEALTH AND your neighbors. Do you really think it's good to use this??!

You should know that diesel fuel itself contains benzene and all sorts of other carcinogens.

Now an interesting note is that the EPA has found that diesel with a cetane booster or natural cetane both approaching 50 results in a reduction of NOx.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by TotalPower

High cylinder temps cause NOx, absolutely right, but if we were to have less air and simply more oxygen in our engine then we wouldn't have to worry about the production of NOX. 21% of all air is oxygen not just excess air basically meaning 4/5 of the volume inside inside your cylinder is something that you don't want in there. only 1/5th is useful. Proper mixture has more to do with whether or not it is homogenous or heterogeneous inside your cylinder. Since you are trying to mix a gas with a liquid not only is the mixture not homogenous, but the liquid spray (as mist like and thin as it may be) doesn't have perfect contact with oxygen that is required for combustion and the outside of the spray has more contact than the inside (which has little to no contact hence the particulate matter). The only way to get this mixture to be homogenous is to have liquid oxygen in your fuel prior to going into the cylinder.

I understand that removal of sulfur has "dried" out the fuel making it harder for engines to run properly, but the emission control devices require low sulfur in order to work properly. introducing sulfur back in by using a petroleum based product is shooting your self in the foot. Other things can be used that are not petroleum based that will increase the lubricity of diesel fuel to ensure that pump and injectors are running fine as they were before.

I believe that there is a lot oil companies could do to sell a superior product. they are not in the business of selling the best fuel, they are in the business of being in business. If they can use a marginal product instead of the best, they will if it will save them a fraction of a cent. Likewise, fuel additive companies spend their money on advertising and marketing instead of on R&D and creating a superior product. They use technology from the 60's and re,re,rebrand it and say it's something special when it's not.

And what makes you think aftermarket additives are not USLD compliant?

[TotalPower]

Originally Posted by Socom

And what makes you think aftermarket additives are not USLD compliant?

From Jeff Herzon, mechanical engineer at the USEPA's National Vehicle and Fuel Emissions Laboratory:

"There are no EPA certification requirements regarding the effectiveness of diesel fuel deposit control additives.
There are sulfur requirements for diesel fuel additives. They must have a sulfur content less than or equal to 15 ppm.

The sulfur content of gasoline additives is limited by the current EPA 95ppm downstream gasoline sulfur cap. As part of the upcoming Tier 3 gasoline proposed rule, EPA plans to consider adopting additional controls on the sulfur content of gasoline additives that would limit the contribution to the sulfur content of the finished gasoline from the use of a gasoline additives (when used at the maximum treatment level) to 3ppm."

15ppm is the ULSD maximum, so if fuel is being pumped that is already at 15ppm, using a diesel fuel additive with ANY sulfur will put you above and beyond what your ULSD engine and emission equipment was designed for.

[TotalPower]

Originally Posted by Socom

You should know that diesel fuel itself contains benzene and all sorts of other carcinogens.

Now an interesting note is that the EPA has found that diesel with a cetane booster or natural cetane both approaching 50 results in a reduction of NOx.

You're right they are NATURALLY found yet these are refined out as much as possible due to their toxic nature. It would be a disservice to add poison to your fuel supply when there are non-toxic additives available...that's all I'm sayin!

Natural Cetane and cetane boosters are 2 different animals. Natural cetane does reduce NOx, I might be mistaken (i'll edit if I am) but cetane boosters don't change NOx and might make it worse due to increased cylinder temps.

[TotalPower]

Originally Posted by hotrod2448

Just about every fluid you put in your car would have a similar MSDS to this, along with a significant amount of household cleaners and lawn care products. Besides I don't think any of us are using this stuff as massage oil on ourselves or neighbors.

Looks like we're not driving anywhere or polishing the car either.

Like I said above, you're doing yourself a disservice by simply adding MORE toxic materials into something that is heavily controlled with vapor traps, underground tanks, etc when there are safe, equally or more effective, and NON-toxic alternatives.

We all know gasoline and diesel are toxic, but adding toxic upon toxic upon toxic is not a route I would recommend

You're basically taking all of the toxins of diesel/gasoline compressing them into 1 little bottle and dumping that into your fuel. enjoy your koolaid

[cssnms]

Originally Posted by TotalPower

You're right they are NATURALLY found yet these are refined out as much as possible due to their toxic nature. It would be a disservice to add poison to your fuel supply when there are non-toxic additives available...that's all I'm sayin!

Natural Cetane and cetane boosters are 2 different animals. Natural cetane does reduce NOx, I might be mistaken (i'll edit if I am) but cetane boosters don't change NOx and might make it worse due to increased cylinder temps.

Please define "natural cetane."

[hotrod2448]

Originally Posted by TotalPower

Like I said above, you're doing yourself a disservice by simply adding MORE toxic materials into something that is heavily controlled with vapor traps, underground tanks, etc when there are safe, equally or more effective, and NON-toxic alternatives.

We all know gasoline and diesel are toxic, but adding toxic upon toxic upon toxic is not a route I would recommend

You're basically taking all of the toxins of diesel/gasoline compressing them into 1 little bottle and dumping that into your fuel. enjoy your koolaid

What is this safe nontoxic way to boost cetane and add lubricity you speak of? Biodiesel? It's not nontoxic, it's still diesel fuel. Premium diesel? Can't get it around here and it's still toxic diesel fuel. So what is it?

I personally don't use additives with my ULSD specifically because of concerns regarding the emissions equipment you've mentioned earlier but, please don't try to make a case for "you shouldn't because it's bad for your health" out of that.

As I was trying to point out you are already exposed to fuels/fluids that are bad for you. Engines don't care about that. They have no risk of cancer or liver disease. They don't care about the toxicity of a given liquid as long as it has the necessary properties to be a good fuel. Nevermind the fact that if you do it properly you should never actually come into contact with the additive. It's in a bottle, dump it in. It's not like you are required to drink it and then piss it into your tank.

If you want to argue these additives don't make a better fuel please feel free. It's a debate that has been going for quite a while and I don't expect will end any time soon. I'm personally on the fence regarding them myself but, don't act like pouring a bottle in your car you just increased your and your neighbors odds of cancer or liver disease by anymore than waxing your car.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by TotalPower

15ppm is the ULSD maximum, so if fuel is being pumped that is already at 15ppm, using a diesel fuel additive with ANY sulfur will put you above and beyond what your ULSD engine and emission equipment was designed for.

And you KNOW that aftermarket additives contain sulfur? They could contain no sulfur.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by hotrod2448

What is this safe nontoxic way to boost cetane and add lubricity you speak of? Biodiesel? It's not nontoxic, it's still diesel fuel. Premium diesel? Can't get it around here and it's still toxic diesel fuel. So what is it?

I personally don't use additives with my ULSD specifically because of concerns regarding the emissions equipment you've mentioned earlier but, please don't try to make a case for "you shouldn't because it's bad for your health" out of that.

As I was trying to point out you are already exposed to fuels/fluids that are bad for you. Engines don't care about that. They have no risk of cancer or liver disease. They don't care about the toxicity of a given liquid as long as it has the necessary properties to be a good fuel.

If you want to argue these additives don't make a better fuel please feel free. It's a debate that has been going for quite a while and I don't expect will end any time soon. I'm personally on the fence regarding them myself but, don't act like pouring a bottle in your car you just increased your and your neighbors odds of cancer or liver disease by anymore than waxing your car.

+1.

You to remember TotalPower is all about ethanol.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by cssnms

Please define "natural cetane."

There's an EPA report on it. Google EPA Cetane and NOx. Per the report the affect NOx is limited. EGR engines not tested since the technology isn't cetane sensitive. Basically no reason to use an improver unless your engine is cetane sensitive (M57 may be) and you're stuck @ 40 fuel.

[cssnms]

Originally Posted by Socom

There's an EPA report on it. Google EPA Cetane and NOx

That's not what I asked.

I asked him to define what he means by "natural cetane." The context in which he uses the term does not make sense. Cetane is a measurement of ignition delay, it's not an addtive.