[musc]

Originally Posted by lawdude

I know nothing about Terry's device - except what I read on the internet. How good or bad it is is for someone else to determine.

However, Terry's demeanor is completely different on the other board. I went over and gave him a hard time. He handled it quite well. I also noticed that he seems to be more accessible than most other tuners, both publicly and privately. He answers all questions/observations without snapping at or talking down to the poster. If he could do that on this board, he could become a valuable contributor. Of course if they let him back, we'd all be waiting to see how long it takes for him to piss in Shiv's porridge.

Terry is a business man now

[radgator1]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Maybe you haven't. The SSBT limped on me while i was testing it on the dyno a couple of months ago (boost target not reached). In fact, I could only do 2 runs on it. The last 3 tripped low boost mode. A map clamp is a map clamp is a map clamp. Nothing special there. Others have confirmed the same before.

Shiv

Just to clarify I assume you mean the Turbo Tuner? With the "B" in your post we don't want folks to think you are referring to the JuiceBox

But anyway, I wasn't aware of that. I really haven't heard of anyone running into the limp mode issue while driving either under normal conditions or at the track with SSTT but I could have missed that as well.

[RedGT3]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

But under normal conditions, the car operates in the 1-2 degrees of negative retard range.
-shiv

This is just an example right?.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by radgator1

Just to clarify I assume you mean the Turbo Tuner? With the "B" in your post we don't want folks to think you are referring to the JuiceBox

But anyway, I wasn't aware of that. I really haven't heard of anyone running into the limp mode issue while driving either under normal conditions or at the track with SSTT but I could have missed that as well.

Yep.. just a typo. Fixed. Limp modes for not reaching boost targets isn't unheard of when you simply clamp the map sensor in order to achieve higher boost pressures. The factory ECU monitors the boost control duty cycle required to hit the desired boost target. If it goes beyond a certain amount, the ECU assumes that there is a leak somewhere and goes into limp mode. This is one of the diagnostics we have addressed with v2.

Originally Posted by fll335

This is just an example right?.

Yep. All those numbers are just examples. Numbers may vary but idea is the same.

Shiv

[Beer Goggles]

Doesn't the stock system have some compensation built in? Stock the car will go up to .8 bar from 0.6 to compensate for air density and maintain power, I'd have to imagine that it's adding boost and timing, so a similar argument can be made for the chips that are just adding boost? I'd be happy with .8 bar since that's a pretty good bump in PSI

[ironic]

OMG 12 sec already

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by radgator1

It seems like we haven't heard of any limp modes in the SSTT and JB equipped cars

fyi, I witnessed the limp mode for a little bit with the Turbo Tuner at LACR.
I had the pedal down in 4th and no acceleration.

[bnj]

Ecu tuning uses up some of the safety margin. Otherwise cars would be "tuned" by factory. Moreover, Procede is not adjusting timing for 91 and 93 oct separately but is using some more of the margin using ECU adaptation for the octanes. However, using the huge safety margin is just fine. I feel very safe running Procede very hard. Stock is leaner than any of the tuning options and I would like to know any hard evidence of any tuning option to be ran leaner than stock due to running out of safety margin. I doubt that. For me the choice is based on the power increase. Not the safety, which I don't think is compromised in reality.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Brisk

could that be related to the heat protection and intake heat protection that comes with the turbo tuner? or maybe just overheating?

No, I don't believe so. I still don't know what this 'heat protection' is or why it is needed.

Shiv

[A418t81]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Safe is a relative term.

Now let's raise the boost to 11-12psi and bias the wideband o2 sensors to add in fuel under boost. The bump in boost requires another 1-2 degrees of retard. But the fuel enrichment allows for another 1 degree of knock suppression. So now the ECU is running with a on-boost ignition trim of 5-7 degrees of retard. Again, the ECU can keep things knock free. But the problem remains: You've used all nearly all of your 10 degree ignition retard safety margin. This is okay 95% of the time. But it's the last 5% of the time that things get ugly.

This is why having aux. timing control is critical. It allows you to run the necessary amount of timing retard under boost. But it doesn't take it from the factory ECU's adaptive functions. That still stays and does its important job as it sees fit.

Rule of thumb when tuning a car: Don't mess with safety margins. They are there for a reason.

-shiv

True, but there are also safety measures in place in case any adaptation channel (such a fuel, timing, boost) become maxx'ed out as well (just like when the adaptation for boost pressure versus duty cycle maxes on some procedes and limp occurs, fixed by the LBPT map).. Usually a CEL and a reduced power mode result with codes generated along those grounds.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by A418t81

True, but there are also safety measures in place in case any adaptation channel (such a fuel, timing, boost) become maxx'ed out as well (just like when the adaptation for boost pressure versus duty cycle maxes on some procedes and limp occurs, fixed by the LBPT map).. Usually a CEL and a reduced power mode result with codes generated along those grounds.

There is no proactive safety feature of knock control. Just reactive. Which means a few pops get through before it induces a limp. This is why keeping the adaptive adjustment range in tact is so important in the long term.

shiv

[A418t81]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

There is no proactive safety feature of knock control. Just reactive. Which means a few pops get through before it induces a limp. This is why keeping the adaptive adjustment range in tact is so important in the long term.

shiv

Yeah, but the knock sensors have to be "lit off" for any adaptation to occur in the first place, which is obviously reactive. Chances are that if you do something to the car that maxes the adaptation channel, like somebody put 87 octane in my car, it would max and limp regardless of adaptation headroom. I think I might almost rather have a limp mode generated faster and not dog on my car rather than have the computer yank 9 deg out through adaptation and me wonder why the car got slower as I stomp it

[RedGT3]

Finally discussing tuning options without name calling and like civilize people. BRAVO

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by DrDomer

Totally off subject, but can anyone point us less informed forum members to good resources on the basics of how engines work? More specifically, how modern turbocharged engines work? I know lots of you guys work in th industry, but some of us work in other fields and still like to understand things at their most basic level.

Although it is now getting a bit old, it is still a valuable resource:

Maximum Boost

[Orb]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I'd agree with that. As would any actual engine tuner in the industry. It's really funny. Lots of people are looking for the magic bullet. The bargain of the century. The giant killer. But one of the fundamental requirements of being able to access a products merits is a technical understanding what it does and doesn't do. And what functionality is required given the existing constraints and target goals. In the case of engine management, it's really easy to understand the basics: Fuel control, boost control and ignition timing control. In mature markets, what usually separates different tuning options are the differences in how each "ingredient" is mapped. Basically, the recipe. In the case of the 335i tuning market, half of the tuning options are actually missing one-third of the necessary ingredients. The taste can be made temporarily palatable by through spreading misinformation (air intake temp based timing retard nonsense, factory closed loop fuel control adjusting for fuel delivery bs, how 'unsafe' other options are, for examples). It's just the way the market works. Some will get it immediately. Some won't. But in the end, the more options out there will make everyone more knowledgable on the subject. But a few eggs will likely be cracked along the way.

Shiv

So the JB is missing a lot then? I can not figure out how the JB can correlate mass air flow and change the fuel mixture accordingly (something missing here) along with some other variable that you pointed out. Could be wrong but don’t see a connection.

Orb

[DrDomer]

Originally Posted by scalbert

Although it is now getting a bit old, it is still a valuable resource:

Maximum Boost

Thank you.

[A418t81]

Originally Posted by scalbert

Although it is now getting a bit old, it is still a valuable resource:

Maximum Boost

A fun read, but it was out of date when I read this book 7-8 years ago ...Although it was fun to read about the draw-through carb setups.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by A418t81

A fun read, but it was out of date when I read this book 7-8 years ago ...Although it was fun to read about the draw-through carb setups.

About the only thing modern it does not touch on is Direct Injection. It does even include information about variable vane turbos. For a novice read, it is hard to beat.

However, it was wrtten about thirteen years ago.

[FinInk]

the OP said that the time was run on street tires, sorry but according to the OP from the link he later responds that he wasn't using street tires.

"of course not he he,I replaced my RFT's with the new Yokohama Advan Neova's,they're really sticky after a good burnout. they're not cheap tho around $249 each,they put the Michelin Pilot PS2 to shame and they're quiet as hell unlike the Azenis rt615 and provide great wet traction as well."

Traction does wonders, espeically for this car which typically lacks it with stock tires.

[A418t81]

Originally Posted by scalbert

About the only thing modern it does not touch on is Direct Injection. It does even include information about variable vane turbos. For a novice read, it is hard to beat.

However, it was wrtten about thirteen years ago.

Its a good first book, but there's a good bit of stuff in there thats more just his opinion rather than fact. I usually tell people to read it and appreciate it for what it is, but don't take it as the gospel. He's also very much from the old school thought process.

[fedinand]

Originally Posted by FinInk

the OP said that the time was run on street tires, sorry but according to the OP from the link he later responds that he wasn't using street tires.

"of course not he he,I replaced my RFT's with the new Yokohama Advan Neova's,they're really sticky after a good burnout. they're not cheap tho around $249 each,they put the Michelin Pilot PS2 to shame and they're quiet as hell unlike the Azenis rt615 and provide great wet traction as well."

Traction does wonders, espeically for this car which typically lacks it with stock tires.

The OP said "street tires" not "stock tires", and the Yokos are "street tires" - (very good street tires). I do agree that traction is very important and this run definately did benefit from great tires...12.9 and 108 are still impressive though.

[musc]

108 mph tells us a lot, regardless of what kind of tires he used. The DA was was 3085' to 3396' depending on where the humidity was at. 108 mph is a nice trap speed for these conditions.