[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Mondolemite

OK, there is that point. I was trying to be a little diplomatic in paraphrasing Shiv about the impending revolution...

Revolutions really go both ways. The details of the Sharkedit system will determine if it will be readily adopted by tuners or remain mainly an end-user product. Basically, it all comes down to performance, IP protection and warranty implications.

Performance is going to be based upon what maps and how many maps are editable and accurately assessed. It's been mentioned that there will be documentation that will/should go over all this. There are a lot of assumptions being made and I have no doubt that Jim C. will do a good job with the product. But that can only be determined once the product is released. Jim is releasing this for a couple dozen ECU types at once and the work that this entails is no joke. I have a far easier job keeping up with just one platform. Even it it does involve additive features (as opposed to editing maps which already exist).

As far as IP protection, this is also of utmost importance to those who do tuning for a living. I hear it everyday that once end users get their hands on a tuning system, the quality of tunes will improve. I have yet to be convinced of this in the EVO market and, with N54 engines (and the ECUs behind them) being far more expensive and complicated, I'm not placing any bets here either. Once Open ECU came out in the Suby/Evo markets, I've seen customers freely share maps that were developed for them by professional tuners with the idea that they paid for it so the IP belongs to them. Unfortunately, that's a very myopic outlook and will keep all those who actually make a living by knowing how to tune an engine away. Of course, Jim did mention that there is some degree of IP protection. But there are also a lot of people out there who find it fun to find ways around this.

So until I (and I presume many other tuners) feel comfortable with the system (performance, flexibility and IP protection), we're going to be hesitant to jump on the back of the bull (or shark, in this case). Because, right now with the PROcede, I know my IP is protected which allows me to continue developing new features/abilities without the fear of getting rug pulled out from underneath me. I've seen it before and until it happens to you, you don't realize how nasty it can get.

And finally, the warranty implications are yet to be seen. Jim mentioned the idea of getting an extra ECU if this is a concern. I'm not sure if he was serious or just being facetious. But I'm guessing that it's probably not in his best interest to promise that the dealership/BMW will not be able to prove that a car has been reflashed (even if it gets flashed back to stock). Again, this becomes a waiting game and we will see BMWs reaction to these developments. They went far enough to release a new hardware version of the ECU to protect themselves from unauthorized flash editing. You can expect them to have a response to this. Of course, if warranty is not a concern (I'm probably in that boat!), then this is one less issue to even worry about.

That's my 2c,

Cheers,
shiv

[Mattscott]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Revolutions really go both ways. The details of the Sharkedit system will determine if it will be readily adopted by tuners or remain mainly an end-user product. Basically, it all comes down to performance, IP protection and warranty implications.

Performance is going to be based upon what maps and how many maps are editable and accurately assessed. It's been mentioned that there will be documentation that will/should go over all this. There are a lot of assumptions being made and I have no doubt that Jim C. will do a good job with the product. But that can only be determined once the product is released. Jim is releasing this for a couple dozen ECU types at once and the work that this entails is no joke. I have a far easier job keeping up with just one platform. Even it it does involve additive features (as opposed to editing maps which already exist).

As far as IP protection, this is also of utmost importance to those who do tuning for a living. I hear it everyday that once end users get their hands on a tuning system, the quality of tunes will improve. I have yet to be convinced of this in the EVO market and, with N54 engines (and the ECUs behind them) being far more expensive and complicated, I'm not placing any bets here either. Once Open ECU came out in the Suby/Evo markets, I've seen customers freely share maps that were developed for them by professional tuners with the idea that they paid for it so the IP belongs to them. Unfortunately, that's a very myopic outlook and will keep all those who actually make a living by knowing how to tune an engine away. Of course, Jim did mention that there is some degree of IP protection. But there are also a lot of people out there who find it fun to find ways around this.

So until I (and I presume many other tuners) feel comfortable with the system (performance, flexibility and IP protection), we're going to be hesitant to jump on the back of the bull (or shark, in this case). Because, right now with the PROcede, I know my IP is protected which allows me to continue developing new features/abilities without the fear of getting rug pulled out from underneath me. I've seen it before and until it happens to you, you don't realize how nasty it can get.

And finally, the warranty implications are yet to be seen. Jim mentioned the idea of getting an extra ECU if this is a concern. I'm not sure if he was serious or just being facetious. But I'm guessing that it's probably not in his best interest to promise that the dealership/BMW will not be able to prove that a car has been reflashed (even if it gets flashed back to stock). Again, this becomes a waiting game and we will see BMWs reaction to these developments. They went far enough to release a new hardware version of the ECU to protect themselves from unauthorized flash editing. You can expect them to have a response to this. Of course, if warranty is not a concern (I'm probably in that boat!), then this is one less issue to even worry about.

That's my 2c,

Cheers,
shiv

My main conern is that the car is flashed back to stock that it will be able also restore the old logs, incase BMW does pull the logging to see if the car was tuned. Also another concern of mine is that the tunes can be made CUSTOM just for me and my exact mods

[judec]

Originally Posted by Comet

so u r gonna drive stock till it comes out??

if I decide to switch to this, I'm gonna sell my JB2 after I get it

well, maybe if U'll be able to find s/o to buy it...

[Comet]

Originally Posted by judec

well, maybe if U'll be able to find s/o to buy it...

not everyone is gonna switch to it.. there will be plenty of people wanting a JB2
+ all I have to do is beat a 335 here with my JB2 and then sell it to them... not a lot of people are educated about piggybacks around my neck of the woods

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by rmfast

The beauty of something like the Shark Edit is Vishnu will either need to develop maps, or people will just pass on by. No more being held hostage. It really will be a revolution. Plus I've read a few of Jim C's exchanges with Shiv... and I wager he will be on the exclude list anyway.

What flash software does is pretty much kill the national market for tuners. They can really only serve local customers. Because every town will have someone doing flash tuning and custom maps for their local customers. Just look at how HP Tuners changed the GM tuning industry.

I really hope this is for real and works with the v81 DME.

No one is going to deny the investment and ingenuity of the Procede. With "open ECU", this is an opportunity (as I see it) for people like Shiv to continue to innovate.

The real question for people like Shiv, Turnermotorsports is how to monetize their Intellectual Property.

There will be scumbags who will rip this off and it is our job to humiliate them.

Products like SSTT will continue to exist because of the simplicity of the solution.

I humbly suggest Shiv will need to hunker down and see how to transform his business to a software model....it can be done. Heck, if he actually works with Jim, you can lock maps to shark units..... I would even venture to say that Shiv can make more money going with a pure software model with new software drops, membership fees etc....

I am thinking companies like Turner Motorsports and other race teams are the real dark horses.....

[5soko]

i gotta agree with shiv, my scobby was a nightmare, until i got it right. some people dont know how pain in the ass this might lead to be. hopefully the injector will be something to look forward to. some people are making this out to be more then it is, its just a editor setup, most people hate this, most dont even use this setup, but others like it and use it for evo's and scooby's i felt fine doing it or trying it, with this car and BMW direct connection with tunes and ECU beffing up, wont be worth it.

[oc24]

Those who first crack v81 also will have a large market share until everyone catches up (assuming everyone can catch up).

[Kerosene Hat]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

...Jim mentioned the idea of getting an extra ECU if this is a concern. I'm not sure if he was serious or just being facetious...

Spare ECU is very common among the VWAG 1.8T tuning community. Especially b/c some "stock" reflashes or maps (like APR) were really emulations and not the real thing, which caused warranty concerns. Of course, that ECU was like $400 or so IIRC - I am willing to bet a v80 DME is a bit more. But if a Shark tune / injection / flash is $300 - $500 all in, that leaves a $1,500 - $1,700 window between the Shark and Dinan products. Should be more than enough left over for the end user to buy a spare DME, which may exert some pressure on Dinan if they choose to commit to "fence sitters".

Although price drops and innovation (as well as uncertainty about new products) can be tough for those with R&D tied up in more expensive platforms, the "Shark Suite" and its price points are extremely enticing to end users and may increase the size of the tuning market's prospective customer base.

I'm willing to bet the pricing and flexibility will drive more than enough additional volume to the tuning industry to changing costs, implications or investments needed w/ SharkEdit et al.

Looks like Jim really speared the shark on the head if Reality ≈ Hype.

[Kerosene Hat]

Originally Posted by rmfast

The beauty of something like the Shark Edit is Vishnu will either need to develop maps, or people will just pass on by. No more being held hostage. It really will be a revolution. Plus I've read a few of Jim C's exchanges with Shiv... and I wager he will be on the exclude list anyway.

What flash software does is pretty much kill the national market for tuners. They can really only serve local customers. Because every town will have someone doing flash tuning and custom maps for their local customers. Just look at how HP Tuners changed the GM tuning industry.

I really hope this is for real and works with the v81 DME.

I, for one, believe there will always be a place for the most reliable, prestigious and/or otherwise unique specialized tunes from national companies.

I also believe the set of national tuning companies will also decrease for exactly the reasons rmfast cites.

[smdandb2]

Originally Posted by Kerosene Hat

Spare ECU is very common among the VWAG 1.8T tuning community. Especially b/c some "stock" reflashes or maps (like APR) were really emulations and not the real thing, which caused warranty concerns. Of course, that ECU was like $400 or so IIRC - I am willing to bet a v80 DME is a bit more. But if a Shark tune / injection / flash is $300 - $500 all in, that leaves a $1,500 - $1,700 window between the Shark and Dinan products. Should be more than enough left over for the end user to buy a spare DME, which may exert some pressure on Dinan if they choose to commit to "fence sitters".

Although price drops and innovation (as well as uncertainty about new products) can be tough for those with R&D tied up in more expensive platforms, the "Shark Suite" and its price points are extremely enticing to end users and may increase the size of the tuning market's prospective customer base.

I'm willing to bet the pricing and flexibility will drive more than enough additional volume to the tuning industry to changing costs, implications or investments needed w/ SharkEdit et al.

Looks like Jim really speared the shark on the head if Reality ≈ Hype.

Jim bought a spare MSD80 for this 335... and IIRC the price was a tad under 2k and took FOREVER to get here.

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by smdandb2

Jim bought a spare MSD80 for this 335... and IIRC the price was a tad under 2k and took FOREVER to get here.

So what's the deal with you? You seem to know Jim and even invested $2000 in a new ECU.

Do you work with Jim? How are you confident in an unreleased technology to lay down $2000 as a back strategy?

Just curious.

[e90AW335i]

Originally Posted by T Bone

So what's the deal with you? You seem to know Jim and even invested $2000 in a new ECU.

Do you work with Jim? How are you confident in an unreleased technology to lay down $2000 as a back strategy?

Just curious.

Wouldn't laying down 2000 for another ECU prove that he isn't confident?

The main advantage of the SharkEDIT, IMO, is it being completely undetectable. No signs of install/uninstall, and doesn't set off any faults in the ECU....

If it doesn't provide this than it will be another option out there for people that dont care about their warranty (not that many out there)

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by e90AW335i

Wouldn't laying down 2000 for another ECU prove that he is confident?

The main advantage of the SharkEDIT, IMO, is it being completely undetectable. No signs of install/uninstall, and doesn't set off any faults in the ECU....

If it doesn't provide this than it will be another option out there for people that dont care about their warranty (not that many out there)

Actually the behavior suggests he is NOT confident in the shark flast remaining undetectable.

Why spend $2Gs on a backup ECU if you are confident in the solution? I don't get it.

[e90AW335i]

Originally Posted by T Bone

Actually the behavior suggests he is NOT confident in the shark flast remaining undetectable.

Why spend $2Gs on a backup ECU if you are confident in the solution? I don't get it.

DOH! I meant to write "isn't" not "is"

We are understanding each other T Bone....

(edited above)

[Vegas_Sirk]

Nice this is like OpenECU for the evos & STIs but at $300 price tag ... still worth every penny IMO

http://www.openecu.org/index.php?title=Downloads

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by e90AW335i

DOH! I meant to write "isn't" not "is"

We are understanding each other T Bone....

(edited above)

Actually, I made a mistake....I thought that smdandb2 bought the ECU but it was Jim.

Of course it would make a lot of sense for Jim to buy several.

Mea culpa.

[e90AW335i]

Originally Posted by T Bone

Actually, I made a mistake....I thought that smdandb2 bought the ECU but it was Jim.

Of course it would make a lot of sense for Jim to buy several.

Mea culpa.

It would make sense. There are still MANY questions that need to be answered....

[normtrum]

Originally Posted by rmfast

The beauty of something like the Shark Edit is Vishnu will either need to develop maps, or people will just pass on by. No more being held hostage. It really will be a revolution. Plus I've read a few of Jim C's exchanges with Shiv... and I wager he will be on the exclude list anyway.

What flash software does is pretty much kill the national market for tuners. They can really only serve local customers. Because every town will have someone doing flash tuning and custom maps for their local customers. Just look at how HP Tuners changed the GM tuning industry.

I really hope this is for real and works with the v81 DME.

There are some bold statements in this post.....made even more bold by the fact the the SI isn't even out yet.

When in fact the SI does come out (I don't think it's a question of "if") and proves to be the reliable, safe, and user friendly tune it is cracked up to be....I still don't think it will "kill the national market for tuners". It might force some of the tuners in a new direction, but every "good" tuner should know how to react to new developments and opportunities. To suggest that someone of shiv's capabilities won't be able to keep up....is a bit ignorant imo.

[Vegas_Sirk]

Originally Posted by normtrum

There are some bold statements in this post.....made even more bold by the fact the the SI isn't even out yet.

When in fact the SI does come out (I don't think it's a question of "if") and proves to be the reliable, safe, and user friendly tune it is cracked up to be....I still don't think it will "kill the national market for tuners". It might force some of the tuners in a new direction, but every "good" tuner should know how to react to new developments and opportunities. To suggest that someone of shiv's capabilities won't be able to keep up....is a bit ignorant imo.

Just look at the Evo & STI market .... both those cars where popular where people where paying $600+ for a reflash (here in the BMW market its even more). When the OpenEcu (www.openecu.org) came out it allowed anyone that download the software and install it on a PC and bought a $100 cable access to tunning the ECU. However this didnt stop the need for tunners. The average joe cant tune his own car. They have no idea on how maps work and how timing, boost, and fuel all relate to one another. On the Evo forums there are self proclaimed "tuners" that have blown motors left and right.

There will still be a need for tuners. Only issue is now Joe X can go get a Dinnan flash and split the cost with 10 of his close buddies and then the next guy can download it off his ECU and flash it on his and so on. Thats what happened with a LOT of the evo guys I know.

Another benefit id for people that are hardcore serious about having their car run at max performance. Now custom tunes based on mods will be much easier, and now a guy with a lot of mods wont be stuck using some base piggyback.

[smdandb2]

Originally Posted by T Bone

So what's the deal with you? You seem to know Jim and even invested $2000 in a new ECU.

Do you work with Jim? How are you confident in an unreleased technology to lay down $2000 as a back strategy?

Just curious.

Jim is one of my really good friends. I am going to be his forum man (since he is going to be swamped for the next 6 months). I am going to become uber familiar with his stuff real soon, so I can answer some of your guy's questions.

I ONLY mentioned he purchased another DME to bring the price point up. He didnt purchase it because he is scared of the detectability of the flash, but when trying something that HASNT been done it would be a bad idea to mess up your only DME. This one was purchased just in case something happens during testing that he cannot predict. Why try flashing a DME in your car when you can have one sitting on your desk.

He just picked up his E92 M3 today, can't wait to see it.

[smdandb2]

Originally Posted by T Bone

Actually the behavior suggests he is NOT confident in the shark flast remaining undetectable.

Why spend $2Gs on a backup ECU if you are confident in the solution? I don't get it.

Once again, not a backup.

It was his test DME.

[lawdude]

Originally Posted by smdandb2

Jim is one of my really good friends. I am going to be his forum man (since he is going to be swamped for the next 6 months).

Haha, that's one way to avoid paying a sponsorship fee.