[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by M2PDX

Tell that to the thousands and thousands of 8, 9, and 10 year olds mining Cobalt in Africa in deplorable conditions. Shame on all of us.

BMW already went over this. They guaranteed socially responsible mining of the materials going into their batteries. And their motors don't use rare earth elements.

[T_U_D]

Originally Posted by Tag

I feel sad for the younger generation. No matter how fast EVs get they are boring AF. No shifting, no exhaust sounds, no soul. The only silver lining is Porsche is working on e-fuel which is carbon neutral and would let them continue to make ICE cars well into the future.

Sadly, e-fuel will be extremely cost prohibitive. I suspect only the 1% will be able to afford it.

A somewhat recent article regarding the project.

CNBC - Porsche begins production of ‘e-fuel’ that could provide gas alternative amid EV push
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/20/pors...ternative.html

[M3JetPilot]

If it looks awesome and goes fast then I’ll probably drive it. That being said, the EV in its current form is a horrible idea for numerous reasons. An EV isn’t better for the environment and some EVs require being driven for 400-500 hundred thousand miles before reaching a point of offsetting the emissions from the EVs creation. This is a fact and you can find the TED talk about this on You Tube. They are heavier causing more serious injuries and damage during accidents, the batteries have a horrible impact on the environment in their creation and in being recycled, the batteries catch on fire way more than is reported, highway safety and their impact on highway infrastructure have numerous negatives, not to mention the huge cost and environmental impact of switching the world over to EVs. And on a side note the interiors of EVs I’ve seen are cheap and horribly done.

The truth is EVs are not the solution they are made out to be. They no doubt have a role to play but the ICE engine isn’t the evil thing it’s portrayed as. One of the worse things the EV craze has done is stop innovation in internal combustion engines. With carbon capture technology and even better ICE innovation then EVs become less of a solution and more of a problem for long term environmental impacts.

In many respects the switch to EVs is good marketing with a thin coating of feel good environmentalism that enables people and companies to think they are doing something good for the planet. It’s far more complicated than that.

[zero21]

Originally Posted by T_U_D

Sadly, e-fuel will be extremely cost prohibitive. I suspect only the 1% will be able to afford it.

A somewhat recent article regarding the project.

CNBC - Porsche begins production of ‘e-fuel’ that could provide gas alternative amid EV push
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/20/pors...ternative.html

Porsche's project is not feasible for the reason you described. But, they are certainly not the top of the list of synthetic fuel projects. There are much more interesting developments as far as taking the product to market.

[T_U_D]

Since we are discussing EVs and the alternatives.

Toyota CEO finally admits the truth about Tesla

[DSTR]

Originally Posted by Tag

I feel sad for the younger generation. No matter how fast EVs get they are boring AF. No shifting, no exhaust sounds, no soul. The only silver lining is Porsche is working on e-fuel which is carbon neutral and would let them continue to make ICE cars well into the future.

The younger generation tends to be adaptable, creative and looking forward. They, in general feel worse for the 'older' crowd. Also cars are not the obsession for others as the 'enthusiasts' found here.

We feel they are missing something. They feel we dont 'get' whats coming. In general they are more correct. I look forward to new methods, tech and modes of transport. It will not be stopped, money and investment in them will continue, and are growing. Better to be flexible, 'onboard' and ready for the future, no matter your age.

[Alpine Wait]

Originally Posted by c18

If BMW ends up making an EV M car that is the line, I will stop at nothing until the headquarters is flames and shambles. Any time you cut these guys some slack they just manage to make you want to hate the brand even more.

Huh? BMW M has already made their future plans clear, in a very public way. https://bmwi.bimmerpost.com/forums/s....php?t=1977277

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by M3JetPilot

If it looks awesome and goes fast then I’ll probably drive it. That being said, the EV in its current form is a horrible idea for numerous reasons. An EV isn’t better for the environment and some EVs require being driven for 400-500 hundred thousand miles before reaching a point of offsetting the emissions from the EVs creation. This is a fact and you can find the TED talk about this on You Tube. They are heavier causing more serious injuries and damage during accidents, the batteries have a horrible impact on the environment in their creation and in being recycled, the batteries catch on fire way more than is reported, highway safety and their impact on highway infrastructure have numerous negatives, not to mention the huge cost and environmental impact of switching the world over to EVs. And on a side note the interiors of EVs I’ve seen are cheap and horribly done.

The truth is EVs are not the solution they are made out to be. They no doubt have a role to play but the ICE engine isn’t the evil thing it’s portrayed as. One of the worse things the EV craze has done is stop innovation in internal combustion engines. With carbon capture technology and even better ICE innovation then EVs become less of a solution and more of a problem for long term environmental impacts.

In many respects the switch to EVs is good marketing with a thin coating of feel good environmentalism that enables people and companies to think they are doing something good for the planet. It’s far more complicated than that.

That is not so. This study shows 8-13k miles.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/when-do-electric-vehicles-become-cleaner-than-gasoline-cars-2021-06-29/

Look at the EPAs on website:

https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths

[rwemersonrw]

Originally Posted by t$

"electric GMC Hummer weighs about 9,000 pounds, with a battery pack that alone is 2,900 pounds"

what are the other 6100 lbs?!? I guess large SUVs like a Suburban weigh in around that but Im sure theres still atleast 1000+ lbs of engine/drivetrain weight that wouldnt be there?

will be curious to see what the EV cayman weighs and if Porsche can figure out how to keep the weight down. I have 0 interest in a car that size thats 4000+ lbs.

A 3k lb battery! My gawd!

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by rwemersonrw

Read an interesting article today re NTSB expressing concern about the weight of EVs.

https://apnews.com/article/technolog...utm_id=Taboola

This is so late in coming to some kind of realization, and will take even longer for regulations to be enacted - and they probably won’t because of Ford and GM’s control over Washington. But it is a HUGE problem (pun intended) in terms of injuries in accidents and impact on infrastructure.

Beyond that, if/when BMW moves away from pure turbocharged ICE into hybrid or EV for M cars, it will be a very sad day for the brand. I can’t envision an approach that has the fun factor and lively engagement… the AMG approach is 4 cyl + EV, but that approach is a failure. My guess is we’re 10 years away from such a cataclysmic event.

[Tag]

Originally Posted by DSTR

The younger generation tends to be adaptable, creative and looking forward. They, in general feel worse for the 'older' crowd. Also cars are not the obsession for others as the 'enthusiasts' found here.

We feel they are missing something. They feel we dont 'get' whats coming. In general they are more correct. I look forward to new methods, tech and modes of transport. It will not be stopped, money and investment in them will continue, and are growing. Better to be flexible, 'onboard' and ready for the future, no matter your age.

I get what you're saying, but I've worked in technology for many years and have never been intimidated by it. I have to adapt more than most people since technology is constantly evolving and I'm always learning, training, getting certified, etc. But that also means I have a very good perspective on things and just because you throw more technology at something doesn't always make it better. The most recent car example I can think of are the digital gauges. When I purchased my last car, I had the option of getting a digital cluster or analog. I choose the later because I love the simplicity of analog gauges and IMO they provide all the information and functionality I require. The center part is still digital and so is the infotainment, it's a perfect hybrid of info and tech. Most everyone else at the time was opting for a digital cluster. Fast forward now and most people prefer analog to digital because they are timeless, they are real dials, there's really no downside and they are just plain cool.

I'm sure EVs will be great and evolve over time to do things we only dreamed of, but some experiences will get lost along the way. Maybe younger people won't care about it since they never experienced it in the first place and so they can't relate. But I can still see a car show well into the future where an old school car is on display, and they pop open the hood and fire it up. People will stare in amazement at the mechanical nature of its engine as it idles. As they rev the engine people will start to swarm over to catch a glimpse and their faces will light up from exhaust note since most of them have never seen or experienced an ICE car in person. ICE cars will always transcend generations in this aspect.

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by Tag

I get what you're saying, but I've worked in technology for many years and have never been intimidated by it. I have to adapt more than most people since technology is constantly evolving and I'm always learning, training, getting certified, etc. But that also means I have a very good perspective on things and just because you throw more technology at something doesn't always make it better. The most recent car example I can think of are the digital gauges. When I purchased my last car, I had the option of getting a digital cluster or analog. I choose the later because I love the simplicity of analog gauges and IMO they provide all the information and functionality I require. The center part is still digital and so is the infotainment, it's a perfect hybrid of info and tech. Most everyone else at the time was opting for a digital cluster. Fast forward now and most people prefer analog to digital because they are timeless, they are real dials, there's really no downside and they are just plain cool.

I'm sure EVs will be great and evolve over time to do things we only dreamed of, but some experiences will get lost along the way. Maybe younger people won't care about it since they never experienced it in the first place and so they can't relate. But I can still see a car show well into the future where an old school car is on display, and they pop open the hood and fire it up. People will stare in amazement at the mechanical nature of its engine as it idles. As they rev the engine people will start to swarm over to catch a glimpse and their faces will light up from [...]

You Sir, should run for President

Common sense is so rare these days, and you demonstrate so much of it in a single post than most folks do in a lifetime

You have my vote

[Bimmerfun82]

"EV's will... do things we only dreamed of..." Um, what exactly are you dreaming?

More likely, BMW is brainwashing us with their product roadmap.
"How do we convince them 2.8 tons is ok for an M car?" "Let's increase the weight of the M2 and M3 by 200kg." "Great idea!" "Let's make the XM, a totally ridiculous and superfluous vehicle." "Great idea!"

[TargaM2]

Originally Posted by DSTR

The younger generation tends to be adaptable, creative and looking forward. They, in general feel worse for the 'older' crowd. Also cars are not the obsession for others as the 'enthusiasts' found here.

We feel they are missing something. They feel we dont 'get' whats coming. In general they are more correct. I look forward to new methods, tech and modes of transport. It will not be stopped, money and investment in them will continue, and are growing. Better to be flexible, 'onboard' and ready for the future, no matter your age.

Fantastic post & a great summation (even if I’m admittedly one of those not ‘onboard’ yet). 👍With an outlook such as this I’m betting there is absolutely no way you are American ?. Right ?.
I just hope we can continue to research synthetic fuels, hydrogen & other solutions rather than just putting all our eggs into the EV basket (which is obviously flawed also) as I fear we’ll be in this same situation again searching for alternatives sooner rather than later.
Despite this I sure am glad I got to experience the ICE though.

[Tag]

Originally Posted by M3macster

"EV's will... do things we only dreamed of..." Um, what exactly are you dreaming?

I want ICE cars to remain around just as much as most of us here do but that doesn't mean I'm going to put my head in the sand and pretend an EV can do things an ICE car can't. I'll point out a few things I can dream of off the top of my head.

If you have a dedicated EV motor at each wheel it negates the need for an LSD and AWD system. You also don't need an axle which means you can literally do whatever you want with each wheel like adjusting caster, camber and toe as part of your different M modes for street, track, etc. You can also do crazy things like rotate the drivers wheels in one direction while the passengers in the opposite and the entire car will pivot on the center of its wheelbase like a tank. Sure, sounds crazy and pointless, but you can do it. Or how about crab walking like the Hummer EV does? Those are just a few things off the top of my head, if I thought about it long enough, I could come up with a lot more.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by Tag

I want ICE cars to remain around just as much as most of us here do but that doesn't mean I'm going to put my head in the sand and pretend an EV can do things an ICE car can't. I'll point out a few things I can dream of off the top of my head.

If you have a dedicated EV motor at each wheel it negates the need for an LSD and AWD system. You also don't need an axle which means you can literally do whatever you want with each wheel like adjusting caster, camber and toe as part of your different M modes for street, track, etc. You can also do crazy things like rotate the drivers wheels in one direction while the passengers in the opposite and the entire car will pivot on the center of its wheelbase like a tank. Sure, sounds crazy and pointless, but you can do it. Or how about crab walking like the Hummer EV does? Those are just a few things off the top of my head, if I thought about it long enough, I could come up with a lot more.

Interesting. Some EV's already do have a motor at each wheel, and this concept was invented 122 years ago (https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/26/tech/...ntl/index.html). BMW is going the other direction with their "hand of god" concept (https://insideevs.com/news/631040/bm...train-details/). The crab walking already exists, as you said. Adjusting camber and toe is on the 911 GT3RS, and while possible not going to happen on an M car, ICE or EV.

So dreaming wise... hmmm... I would dream of an EV that weighed 3000-3500 lbs with the performance of, say, an E46 or F80, range of 400 miles even under cold weather or highway conditions, and charging at 400 Kw or 1600 miles per hour. And let's throw in a 6 speed manual into the mix, why not.

[TargaM2]

As inefficient as they are I really don’t see the EV vehicles being the issue. The manufacturers will nail them in time.
The issue is the infrastructure or complete lack there of.
The governments are pushing this agenda & yet not investing in a support infrastructure. We can’t all move over to EV’s & then obtain the electricity to charge them from oil/coal powered power stations as that’s not solving anything. Wind power is next to useless as far as productivity goes & while some countries are relying on gas it obviously has environmental drawbacks also.
What about synthetic fuels & Hydrogen, surely these should be researched further or are these solutions being killed off by those with an EV agenda ?.
It seems we have been pushed into this without any consideration to what we are actually creating here & the impending drawbacks.
I have several concerns that I’ve not seen addressed & would genuinely like to know what others think & be better informed :-

Why aren’t we getting rid of or electrifying the big polluters such as airplanes, ships, etc. The impact from these heavy polluters is massively more than passenger vehicles yet there seems to be no concern with ‘fixing’ these ?.
Why is there not a consistent target for each country/region, there is no point in one country pushing for 90% EV usage when the country next door is pushing for 5%. We are all on the same earth & all breathe the same air thus if this is to work surely it needs to be a global plan. For example if countries such as China & India are not onboard this will pretty much negate what benefit the rest of us manage.

On a personal level, what happens when we all plug in & charge at home…the power networks are already stretched - blackouts ?.
What about when batteries die in your car in 10 or so years time, the tech is moving on so fast that everything is becoming obsolete almost overnight so will you even be able to replace them ? Or do you just junk the whole car ?. Surely that can’t be a sensible option given what it costs the environment to produce & dispose of a whole car, not to mention the nasty battery itself.
What about resale value ? Is this based on what life is left in a battery as I doubt replacing them will be a viable option, thus who’s going to buy a well used EV ?. It seems to me you will buy a new EV car, keep it till it dies & throw it away then buy another etc. etc. etc.
I’m sure the manufacturers have answers to many of their problems but there concern is solely profit, they are not responsible for the support networks & my concern is the political involvement required as governments by nature are purely self serving & only concerned with things for the brief few years they are in power, which will result in the goalposts being moved every 4 years (or whatever political term your country has) which can’t be good for progress.
I hope the transition to EV is as simple as those with an agenda to push like to claim but I fear it will be far from that.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by TargaM2

Why aren’t we getting rid of or electrifying the big polluters such as airplanes, ships, etc. The impact from these heavy polluters is massively more of an impact than passenger vehicles yet there seems to be no concern with ‘fixing’ these ?.

Offsetting diesel emissions in semis is the next step (Tesla), and Rivian is working on lighter duty delivery trucks (for Amazon)... many other trucks are already natural gas or otherwise zero emissions including busses, apart from most school busses unfortunately... the per capita emissions of large passenger planes isn't as bad as cars and trucks, but my understanding is boats and airplanes are very difficult to solve for with batteries due to weight, range, and capacity loss over time.

[Tag]

Originally Posted by TargaM2

I really don’t see the EV vehicles being the issue. The manufacturers will nail them in no time at all.
The issue is the infrastructure or complete lack there of.
The governments are pushing this agenda & yet not investing in a support infrastructure. We can’t all move over to EV’s & then obtain the electricity to charge them from oil/coal powered power stations as that’s not solving anything. Wind power is next to useless as far as productivity goes & while some countries are relying on gas it obviously has environmental drawbacks also.
It seems we have been pushed into this without any consideration to what we are actually creating here.

I have several concerns that I’ve not seen addressed, please feel free to answer any/all of these as I would genuinely like to know what others think & be better informed :-

Why aren’t we getting rid of or electrifying the big polluters such as airplanes, ships, etc. The impact from these heavy polluters is massively more of an impact than passenger vehicles yet there seems to be no concern with ‘fixing’ these ?.
Why is there not a consistent target for each country/region, there is no point in one country pushing for 90% EV usage when the country next door is pushing for 5%. We are all on the same earth & all breathe the same air thus if this is to work surely it needs to be a global plan. For example if countries such as China & India are not onboard this will pretty much negate what benefit the rest of us manage.

On a personal level, what happens when we all plug in & charge at home…the power networks are already stretched - blackouts ?.
What about when batteries die in your car in 10 or so years time, the tech is moving on so fast that everything is becoming obsolete almost overnight so will you even be able to replace them ? Or do you just junk the whole car ?. Surely that can’t be a sensible option given what it costs the environment to produce & dispose of a whole car, not to mention the battery itself.
What about resale value ? Is this based on what life is left in a battery as I doubt replacing them will be a viable option, thus who’s going to buy a well used EV ?. It seems to me you will buy a new EV car, keep it till it dies & throw it away then buy another etc. etc. etc.
I’m sure the manufacturers have answers to many of their problems but they are not responsible for the support networks & my concern is the political involvement required as governments by nature are purely self serving & only concerned with things for the brief few years they are in power, which will result in the goalposts being moved every 4 years (or whatever political term your country has) which can’t be good for progressing.
I hope the transition to EV is as simple as those with an agenda to push like to claim but I fear it will be far from that.

Planes will be the last to get electrification. Current battery technology is too heavy for flight.

[TargaM2]

Originally Posted by M3macster

Offsetting diesel emissions in semis is the next step (Tesla), and Rivian is working on lighter duty delivery trucks (for Amazon)... many other trucks are already natural gas or otherwise zero emissions including busses, apart from most school busses unfortunately... the per capita emissions of large passenger planes isn't as bad as cars and trucks, but my understanding is boats and airplanes are very difficult to solve for with batteries due to range and capacity loss over time.

Yes I’ve seen what Tesla & others are doing with trucks, definitely a great step in the right direction. Here in Australia our rail network is so under-utilised its almost abandoned & thus road transport is absolutely massive so it’s reassuring to know this is coming.
I wish there was an incentive for such companies to look at planes & shipping as their impact is massive & the solution is a difficult one indeed.
Thanks for the input.

[hellas203]

Originally Posted by M2PDX

Tell that to the thousands and thousands of 8, 9, and 10 year olds mining Cobalt in Africa in deplorable conditions. Shame on all of us.

We’ll said my friend ! People don’t know how much devastation is involved mining for minerals. Do a search lithium mines & mercury. And see what pops up! You know a neurotoxin… just saying. Ev aren’t the way to go it’s hydrogen…

[GoneIn4Secs]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

This is a thread about EV M cars where people are dismissing them outright. As a person who’s recently bought my 7th new M car, I’m fully planning to buy an M EV and don’t car if they never make another ICE M car after the new M2 generation.

You seem to have a lot of disposable income, but most people, middle class dont want no electric battery skateboard with doors