[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Your bolded passage is the essence of the issue, you believe humans are affecting the climate in a NEGATIVE way, so you believe there needs to be action taken to FIX the problem. The reason ships and planes are not the target of Government's zero-carbon climate agenda is because those vehicles cannot be electrified and serve the purpose they are used for. Even if ships and planes could be (battery) "electrified" the cost to produce such vehicles would drastically increase and performance would drastically decrease, which would drastically increase the price of commercial air travel and commercial shipping. BTW most modern ships are high-efficiency diesel-electric, just like rail trains.

The problem with battery EV is it does not scale to large vehicles. It doesn't scale because of the massive difference in the stored energy of petrol fuel compared to a chemical battery. Physics and chemistry limit the energy density of batteries. While batteries may get somewhat better with energy density suitable for automobiles and light trucks, they will never reach an energy density necessary for long-distance commercial shipping and certainly not commercial air travel. Batteries are somewhat suitable for personal automobile travel, but as you point out there are significant issues with BEV (range, recharge time, infrastructure support). The obvious solution is to scale down diesel-electric (or gasoline) to a use case for personal automobiles. The technology already exists and real-world ICE efficiency can easily be doubled, if not tripled, in a matter of a few short years. The reason ICE-electric drivetrains work so well in trains and ships is because those vehicles do not constantly start and stop for traffic. Inserting a battery into the electrical generation system solves that problem because it allows the generator to dump electricity into the battery. Further the combustion efficiency of ICE can be increased by 40% to 50% because in an ICE-electric drivetrain the engine can be tuned to its peak combustion state since it does not need to make power over a curve to deal with constant vehicle speed deviation. The ICE can then be made lighter and out of higher temperature-rated materials (like ceramics) because the engine is no longer a structural part of the drivetrain and does not have to deal with the mechanical shock of acceleration and deacceleration.

The issue with climate fearers such as yourself is you believe "technology" can solve any problem. You believe humans can actually control the climate (for better or worse). Neither is the case. My problem with a person such as Harry Metcalf is he is a diehard Petrolhead, made his fortune from writing about ICE cars, highly inefficient ones at that, but he is concerned about climate change. Hypocrisy at a professional level. When people like you believe carbon emissions are the problem, use of a very high-density fuel is banned and alternative, highly efficient personal automobiles using petro fuels cannot developed. Creating ICE-Eletric vehicles make the most sense because they do not disrupt the electrical energy production industry and does not affect the petrochemical industry. Politicians the world over are not smart enough to understand these concepts.

And you bitch about Americans being ignorant.

And I'd add one more thing concerning planes. Putting batteries into a vehicle that weight is everything is fool hardy. Most of the energy to get the plane in the air is going to be spent on just the sheer weight of the batteries...forget about cargo and any passengers at that point. And let's not forget the time still required to recharge these batteries. Can you imagine at an airport where it would literally have to have it's own power generating plant to recharge these batteries. And I don't even see how electrification of aircraft would even work unless it follows the model of swapping batteries. Now you have to have a huge stack/surplus of batteries to support commercial flights. How does this added competition for needed elements to produce the batteries work with the already competitive environment with automobiles?

[zx10guy]

In addition to infrastructure issues for EV adoption, I'll say it again. Until there is a standard pushed down to all EV manufacturers as to charging/electrical and battery interfaces, this is going to be an uphill battle. Why ICE works so well is the fact that fuels are standardized. I can fill up my POS daily beater with the same fuel that will also power a McLaren 720. Also, the container namely the fuel tank won't typically degrade over time as a battery would.

Another analogy would be electrical appliances used in a home. The electrical standard has been set to be 120V 60Hz. All manufacturers since this became a standard to future products are designed to operate under this power standard. Same with how these products plug into the wall outlet. NEMA 5-15.

With the current state of EV development, it's one big cluster F, free for all with no specific oversight on channeling development into one common industry standard.

[wdb]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

In addition to infrastructure issues for EV adoption, I'll say it again. Until there is a standard pushed down to all EV manufacturers as to charging/electrical and battery interfaces, this is going to be an uphill battle. Why ICE works so well is the fact that fuels are standardized. I can fill up my POS daily beater with the same fuel that will also power a McLaren 720. Also, the container namely the fuel tank won't typically degrade over time as a battery would.

Another analogy would be electrical appliances used in a home. The electrical standard has been set to be 120V 60Hz. All manufacturers since this became a standard to future products are designed to operate under this power standard. Same with how these products plug into the wall outlet. NEMA 5-15.

With the current state of EV development, it's one big cluster F, free for all with no specific oversight on channeling development into one common industry standard.

Quite a few of those standards were created by industry groups such as SAE. Others came about as a result of government involvement, either in the form of legislation requiring certain items or through specific regulations. It is a fair question to ask why none of those entities are stepping forward in the EV realm. Or maybe they are and just haven't gotten their acts together enough to publish yet.

[MichaelB1969]

Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX

Yeah I have a few friends who aren't real happy right now about the incredible price drop...one paid $66K for a Model Y with no tax credit like 6 months ago...she is crying

Now I can get same car for $54K and get up to $7500 fed tax credit

damn near $20K difference if you got the full tax credit


actually went to my local Tesla dealer today and test drove the dual motor
Model Y and was very impressed with its acceleration ...it's an absolute steal right now and is the best bargain with the current Tesla price cuts...

Dual motor is plenty quick. I never drive ours and feel like I am missing out on having the performance model. That is, until they lowered the #$%@/&) price and made it about the same as what we paid for the dual motor.

[wdb]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The difference is that all gas pumps flow fuel notionally at the same rate so there is no competition among manufacturers regarding recharge rates. With EV, the competition (and therefore engineering solutions) is twofold: (1) maximum vehicle range, and (2) range recovery speed. (2) is where the standards limit engineering design, thus competition for a better product.

It's funny though that they don't follow what happens in tech, since so much of an EV is electronics and software. In tech, someone thinks "wouldn't it be great if we could jam more bandwidth down the wire", then they send their wizards to a conference where a spec is roughed in. A few iterations later they publish it, and people start building stuff around that spec. Spec first, stuff next. Although if you go back to, say, the POTS modem days, people built stuff first and chased the spec afterwards. (I'm thinking 56K modems.)

Okay so EV tech is still in its infancy. Specs should be along presently, if history is any indication.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by wdb

It's funny though that they don't follow what happens in tech, since so much of an EV is electronics and software. In tech, someone thinks "wouldn't it be great if we could jam more bandwidth down the wire", then they send their wizards to a conference where a spec is roughed in. A few iterations later they publish it, and people start building stuff around that spec. Spec first, stuff next. Although if you go back to, say, the POTS modem days, people built stuff first and chased the spec afterwards. (I'm thinking 56K modems.)

Okay so EV tech is still in its infancy. Specs should be along presently, if history is any indication.

EVs have been around too long to be called in its infancy. The push for widespread use is in its infancy. I did work on a research project dealing with EVs back in 1993. So the fact there hasn't been even a basic framework from which simple guidelines are worked from is shameful and sloppy.

No one would argue that Tesla is the 800 lb gorilla in the industry. If the Feds are really serious about making this push to EV work long term aside from the infrastructure challenges, they would set up a governing body and then to expedite things, have what Tesla has done be the baseline for development moving forward.

From your IT analogy, Cisco being the 800lb gorilla in the networking industry has had huge influences on IEEE standards if not having IEEE standards be based on their proprietary protocol development. Case in point, multigig Ethernet (2.5 and 5 Gb networking) is a Cisco proprietary protocol until IEEE adopted it as an industry standard.

[gonzo]

Reality?
You can't handle reality!!!


Raise your hand if you're completely fed up with fake-staged news.
AOC protégé. All black instead of white though.


https://twitter.com/TVisCOOLUK/statu...OlVIRQTcl0QzZQ

Good grief.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by gonzo

Reality?
You can't handle reality!!!


Raise your hand if you're completely fed up with fake-staged news.
AOC protégé. All black instead of white though.


https://twitter.com/TVisCOOLUK/statu...OlVIRQTcl0QzZQ

Good grief.

[RichF90M5C]

Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX

meanwhile Tesla announced price slashing on all models yesterday....from 6-20% reduction

People who recently bought are not happy....people who were looking to buy are stoked!!

You can now get a Model 3 Performance for $53,990 and qualify for the $7500 tax credit....

3.1 second 0-60 car for about $45k

shut up and take my money!!!


Anyone want to buy my F32???

HMU

Take the 0-60 element away from a Tesla and they are shit cars. Shit build quality and shit looks. And still massively overpriced.

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by RichF90M5C

Take the 0-60 element away from a Tesla and they are shit cars. Shit build quality and shit looks. And still massively overpriced.

the Model 3 Performance would spank an i4 M50 in just about every actual measurable performance aspect and is now $20K less expensive ...

Looks are subjective
I think the Model 3 is better looking also...although I like the interior of the i4 better than the minimalistic Tesla.

I love my BMW F32, but not blindly.....Give me the Model 3 Perf over the i4 M40 every day and twice on Sundays.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX

the Model 3 Performance would spank an i4 M50 in just about every actual measurable performance aspect and is now $20K less expensive ...

Looks are subjective
I think the Model 3 is better looking also...althought I like the interior of the i4 better than the minimalistic Tesla.

I love my BMW F32, but not blindly.....Give me the Model 3 Perf over the i4 M40 every day and twice on Sundays.

I think the BMW looks infinitely better.

[Tyga11]

I couldn't imagine buying a Model 3 and saying 'damn that looks good'

It's literally the I, Robot car. Everyone and their mom has one. It's made for people who don't care about cars. And now, Uber is using them like there's no tomorrow.

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by Tyga11

I couldn't imagine buying a Model 3 and saying 'damn that looks good'

It's literally the I, Robot car. Everyone and their mom has one. It's made for people who don't care about cars. And now, Uber is using them like there's no tomorrow.

unfortunately after BMW butchered the design of the new G series, especially the 4 and 7, they look way better than those ugly cars...

looks are subjective, but.....

[Kolyan2k]

Can anyone explain to me why Model 3 Performance is not listed as a qualifying car for tax credit?
And why Tesla doesn't put rear 7 passenger seats in Model Y Performance so that it qualifies for credit under 80k SUVs?

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

Can anyone explain to me why Model 3 Performance is not listed as a qualifying car for tax credit?
And why Tesla doesn't put rear 7 passenger seats in Model Y Performance so that it qualifies for credit under 80k SUVs?

the Model 3 Performance now does qualify as long as you keep it under $55K
They start at $53,990

They should have figured out a way to add 7 passenger to the YP

Such a bummer the YP starts at just over the $55K cap at like $56,990

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX

the Model 3 Performance now does qualify as long as you keep it under $55K
They start at $53,990

They should have figured out a way to add 7 passenger to the YP

Such a bummer the YP starts at just over the $55K cap at like $56,990

Yeah but for some reason Model Y P is listed on irs website as qualifying car BUT has to meet certain requirements. And Model 3 P is not listed at all, only Long and Standard range are listed as qualifying under 55k

[Kolyan2k]

3 fck ups. M3P not listed at all, MYL is considered SUV and MYP is not an SUV (because 5 passenger vs 7 passenger), and the price of MYP is $1900 more so it doesn't fall under 55k category either.

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

3 fck ups. M3P not listed at all, MYL is considered SUV and MYP is not an SUV (because 5 passenger vs 7 passenger), and the price of MYP is $1900 more so it doesn't fall under 55k category either.

you're probably looking at current inventory

but you can order your own M3P build and keep it under $55K

here you go

https://www.tesla.com/model3/design#overview

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX

you're probably looking at current inventory

but you can order your own M3P build and keep it under $55K

here you go

https://www.tesla.com/model3/design#overview

It's not listed as a qualifying car, msrp doesn't matter

https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/manufacturers-and-models-for-new-qualified-clean-vehicles-purchased-in-2023-or-after

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

It's not listed as a qualifying car, msrp doesn't matter

https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductio...-2023-or-after

MSRP does matter. That list was put out before recent Tesla price cuts. It will eventually get updated. I am sure Tesla is in communication with Treasury.

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

It's not listed as a qualifying car, msrp doesn't matter

https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductio...-2023-or-after

yes it does...any Tesla under $55K qualifies



$7,500 Federal Tax Credit
Customers who take delivery of a qualified new Tesla and meet all federal requirements are eligible for a tax credit up to $7,500. This credit amount applies to deliveries now and may change during March 2023, at which point the credit value may be reduced.
Adjusted Gross Income Limitations
$300,000 for married couples filing jointly
$225,000 for heads of households
$150,000 for all other filers
Price Caps
The vehicle price at time of delivery must not exceed the following caps. This price includes optional equipment physically attached to the vehicle at the time of delivery and excludes software features, accessories, taxes and fees.
Model 3: $55,000
Model Y with 5 seats: $55,000
Model Y with 7 seats: $80,000
Learn more
Your eligibility for any tax credits depends on your personal tax situation. We recommend speaking with a tax professional for guidance.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX

meanwhile Tesla announced price slashing on all models yesterday....from 6-20% reduction

People who recently bought are not happy....people who were looking to buy are stoked!!

You can now get a Model 3 Performance for $53,990 and qualify for the $7500 tax credit....

3.1 second 0-60 car for about $45k

shut up and take my money!!!


Anyone want to buy my F32???

HMU

Hmmm, bolt-on mods + tune will make a F32 faster then any model 3. Why not just go that route on your F32 if 0-60 so important? Plus you get to keep your interior. Model 3 has to run on prepped track with gutted interior to hit 3.1 & low 11's and still slower then modded F32 with full interior.

That's the problem with EV's, the only mod you can do go faster is start tossing out your seats, carpet, headliner, etc. Don't see aftermarket battery packs and motors coming out anytime soon.